Jumping ship in 2015 - Yamaha R25/R3

[b.miller123]

The headlights/nose remind me of this:

http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/ga..._itemId=187840

[mania]

Dyno
The video reads 32.26 whp but I am seeing 30.7 tops?
Of course that is still very good for a 250 but just noticed

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Aufitt]

Very crisp,

its a Yamaha.

[Somchai]

@mania - sorry, your link is broken so would you please be so kind and repair it? Thx.

But anyway those numbers show approximately 12.5% more than the 250R with injection and around 20% more hp than the carb-Ninjette.
And more impressive is, that's only around 3.5% less then the Ninja 300, so when the Ninja 300 has real 39 HP (you know I talk about Crank-Hp only, everything else doesn't matter) then the Yami has a minimum of real 36 up to 37 HP.
Also when I compare the given engine data (bore x stroke), then I see that the 250 Ninja is the easiest high reving engine and with better parts inside this engine could be the same or even better then the Yami, because then the 2-fiddy Ninjette would be able to rev higher than the now given limit (what's possible you can see at the pre-gen which engine could stand the Yami's).

[choneofakind]

So... is that 32 indonesian hp at the wheel, or 32 actual hp at the wheel? For some reason, whenever I see dyno runs from there, the numbers are always 3-4 hp higher than local dyno runs.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

For some reason, whenever I see dyno runs from there, the numbers are always 3-4 hp higher than local dyno runs.

I don't know how its about the Yami and I'm not so sure how its about the Ninja 300 (Germany I know has a different model compared to USA), but for the Ninja 250R Injection-Model here in Thailand and also Asia it is fact that the engine and ecu are unrescricted compared to all others worldwide.
It also should be known that ALL bikes from 600 cc up in the USA are restricted and for you to be sure I beg you to investigate about that for your own believe (in Germany every model from 600 cc up at least has 3 to 5 more hp at the crank than the same bike in US-Version).
That's the reason why you always see lower numbers from dyno runs in the US and with the limited speed in the US that at least also doesn't matter.

[Aufitt]

Could well have been the translation or multiple duno runs with some tuning, and the 30.7 was stock out of the crate.

Very impressive, 250 laptimes will tumble and I want to be on it.
Its gotta handle a billion times better than any Ninja as well.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Somchai

It also should be known that ALL bikes from 600 cc up in the USA are restricted and for you to be sure I beg you to investigate about that for your own believe (in Germany every model from 600 cc up at least has 3 to 5 more hp at the crank than the same bike in US-Version).
That's the reason why you always see lower numbers from dyno runs in the US and with the limited speed in the US that at least also doesn't matter.

Valid point, I know of the different ECU settings on the 05-06 ZX6R that unlock about 5 hp when you switch to the European map. I assume that practice is the norm for all larger bikes and cars.

However, 3-5 hp is much more significant on a 250-300cc bike than it is on a 600-636cc bike and I associate that with hopeful dynos, not just fueling. I saw the same discrepancies with the 08-12 carbureted 250's and I know there was no difference in fueling between those bikes. They all had the same carbs and the same jets.

I think they make the dyno read high to make potential owners more excited about how much powaahhhh they'll be making and less upset at how insanely expensive a bigger bike is with their taxes.

[xorbe]

Originally Posted by Somchai

It also should be known that ALL bikes from 600 cc up in the USA are restricted and for you to be sure I beg you to investigate about that for your own believe (in Germany every model from 600 cc up at least has 3 to 5 more hp at the crank than the same bike in US-Version).
That's the reason why you always see lower numbers from dyno runs in the US and with the limited speed in the US that at least also doesn't matter.

Lol 3-5HP is not a "restriction" on a 600cc class bike. That's USA emissions change in the ECU most likely. Typical rider would never notice that.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by xorbe

Lol 3-5HP is not a "restriction" on a 600cc class bike. That's USA emissions change in the ECU most likely. Typical rider would never notice that.

Yes you're right that 3 to 5 hp is no big difference but more important is that all engines, motorcycles and especially those in cars, delivered to the USA are NOT able to go full throttle on a long distance and that is a very big plus for german versions, just to remind that Germany has no speed limit and many Americans for that only reason in holidays go to Germany to drive/ride fullspeed on the Autobahn and with this I would like to stop this discussion before it's becoming - "I have the biggest".

[mania]

Originally Posted by Somchai

@mania - sorry, your link is broken so would you please be so kind and repair it? Thx.

Seems to be working Somchai
Anyone else not able to see it?

Just in case here is the address without embedding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3pvfI5HMYo

[mania]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

So... is that 32 indonesian hp at the wheel, or 32 actual hp at the wheel? For some reason, whenever I see dyno runs from there, the numbers are always 3-4 hp higher than local dyno runs.

Sorry Chone it is just a vid I saw. I do not live in Indonesia
But as I said in my other post watching that vid frame by frame I never saw 32hp. So not sure where they get that from

But it does sound pretty good & that hp even at 30 or so on a dyno + the 6-8kg less weight
should be a nice bike. I hope to see one sometime

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Yes you're right that 3 to 5 hp is no big difference but more important is that all engines, motorcycles and especially those in cars, delivered to the USA are NOT able to go full throttle on a long distance and that is a very big plus for german versions, just to remind that Germany has no speed limit and many Americans for that only reason in holidays go to Germany to drive/ride fullspeed on the Autobahn and with this I would like to stop this discussion before it's becoming - "I have the biggest".

Sure, but you don't get to stop the discussion with misleading posts and then saying you don't want to argue. There is nothing in the emissions calibration that makes the engines that much more reliable near peak power, that somehow makes the ones shipped to Germany more able to maintain high speeds while the US versions can't. You're talking about small fractions of power differences due to tuning, not mechanical differences. In fact, most auto manufacturers are going in the opposite direction from country-specialization; the goal is to have universal powertrains that can be used in their products in most major markets with very little differences other than ECU tweaking. When new engine development runs in the billions, it's cost effective to use it everywhere.

[b.miller123]

Until there is a video of someone doing dyno pulls with the yamaha, then pulling it off and doing the same with the Kawasaki/Honda, a couple HP here or there doesn't really mean much. Different dynos read differently, and the same one can read differently on different days, with different temps/humidities, or with one bike that is cold and one that has been running on the dyno for two hours. Heck, I've seen gains of 3hp on a dyno from changes in tire pressure.

Also, you can never tell from a video if a bike is truly stock or if they've messed with the jetting/fuel map or air delivery.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

Its gotta handle a billion times better than any Ninja as well.

Why?

I haven't ridden many different bikes. Do yami sports bikes generally handle better than kawi sports bikes?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by akima

Why?

I haven't ridden many different bikes. Do yami sports bikes generally handle better than kawi sports bikes?

Stock vs stock the r6 handles itself better than the zx6r for track riding, the zx10r handles itself better than the r1. Yami tends to have better build quality than kawi but kawi tends to make more hp in their bikes. kawi's zx10r is the exception to the rule though since it's the best liter bike for sale right now (the electronics package makes a huge difference)
It doesn't hurt that they originally advertised it with an ohlins suspension package, though I haven't seen that since.

Personally I go by bike but there are things that I see each company known for. Honda = build quality, Kawi = raw hp/cheater bikes (yes the 300 was a cheater bike until everyone else started making them), suzuki = squid bike, haven't really ridden one to know what they're like but I'm not a fan of their supersports anyway, and Yamaha = balance with the brakes suspension and power where there is enough of each and not a lack in any.

[akima]

What's a "cheater bike"?

Nooblet question hour here.

[tnr4]

Originally Posted by akima

What's a "cheater bike"?

Nooblet question hour here.

Haha, no it's a fair question. 'Cheaters' are the bikes that gain a performance advantage by adding cc's. So the 636 is a 'cheater' in the 600 class, and the 300 is (was?) a cheater in the 250 class. Other cheaters are the 675s, the gixxer 750, the ducati 848 -- you get the picture.

[Boosted139]

Originally Posted by tnr4

Haha, no it's a fair question. 'Cheaters' are the bikes that gain a performance advantage by adding cc's. So the 636 is a 'cheater' in the 600 class, and the 300 is (was?) a cheater in the 250 class. Other cheaters are the 675s, the gixxer 750, the ducati 848 -- you get the picture.

675s aren't cheater bikes because they're "missing" a cylinder

[choneofakind]

They're still considered cheater bikes. They have just as much power and more torque than their 600cc counterparts.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by Sirref

, and Yamaha = balance with the brakes suspension and power where there is enough of each and not a lack in any.

Maybe in some cases but in recent years, especially with the R6, Yamaha has been the exact opposite of balance. High peak power/crap midrange and bottom, razor sharp chassis/track biased uncomfortable, great peak brake power/crap feel from caliper/pad selection. It makes a really really good stockish race bike, generally very far down the list overall.

The Honda in recent years with the CBR600RR has been the middle of the road, does everything great but not exceptional in anyone one area with awesome build quality and "Honda-ness". Doesn't make as good of a racebike when heavier mods have not been allowed, see DSB and the dominance of the R6. But go to the world level with WSS and the RR and 6R are much much more competitive.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by tnr4

Haha, no it's a fair question. 'Cheaters' are the bikes that gain a performance advantage by adding cc's. So the 636 is a 'cheater' in the 600 class, and the 300 is (was?) a cheater in the 250 class. Other cheaters are the 675s, the gixxer 750, the ducati 848 -- you get the picture.

yup, also I said was due to the cbr300r and the likelihood of an r3 the overall class looks like it's making a shift from 250s to 300s and if everyone's cheating then no one has a straight up advantage.

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

Maybe in some cases but in recent years, especially with the R6, Yamaha has been the exact opposite of balance. High peak power/crap midrange and bottom, razor sharp chassis/track biased uncomfortable, great peak brake power/crap feel from caliper/pad selection. It makes a really really good stockish race bike, generally very far down the list overall.

The Honda in recent years with the CBR600RR has been the middle of the road, does everything great but not exceptional in anyone one area with awesome build quality and "Honda-ness". Doesn't make as good of a racebike when heavier mods have not been allowed, see DSB and the dominance of the R6. But go to the world level with WSS and the RR and 6R are much much more competitive.

I meant balance at the limit, not a middle of the road bike. An r6 on the track has a good balance of power (you're likely always in the powerband on a track) sharp handling and fantastic brakes. I view the r6 as the track bike of choice but it's not as good of a street bike when compared to the cbr600rr or the zx6r.

[mania]

The R25 is likely a nice bike but I just wonder why Yamaha did not go the way like they did with their R15?

Simple things like the USD fork or the 4 piston radial mount front on a 292 disk etc.
Why would they give these things to a 125 & leave them off the 250?
Had they done the R25 in this fashion it would have been an instant home run IMHO

http://www.visordown.com/road-tests-...iew/25106.html

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by mania

...

They probably don't want to set off an arms race at the 250-300 class (prompt redesigns from Kawi, Honda, etc). Also, let's say that they don't instantly win the market with it: This lets them introduce one more new thing per year until they see the minimum needed to own the market without putting too much and going too expensive and driving away potential customers. Don't give away too much or play all your cards at once. It's a solid strategy. Heck, they could make two configurations if they wanted to, like an R and an RR.

[mania]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Probably don't want to set off an arms race at the 250-300 class (prompt redesigns from Kawi, Honda, etc). Also, let's say that they don't instantly win the market with it: This lets them introduce one more new thing per year until they see the minimum needed to own the market without putting too much and going too expensive and driving away potential customers. Don't give away too much or play all your cards at once. It's a solid strategy. Heck, they could make two configurations if they wanted to, like an R and an RR.

True but KTM has already done that albeit not available in some countries
But then again we never know & maybe the R25 is Asia & the R3? may be a different bike for US/Euro/Aust. etc.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by mania

True but KTM has already done that albeit not available in some countries
But then again we never know & maybe the R25 is Asia & the R3? may be a different bike for US/Euro/Aust. etc.

Not likely...

[b.miller123]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

Maybe in some cases but in recent years, especially with the R6, Yamaha has been the exact opposite of balance. High peak power/crap midrange and bottom, razor sharp chassis/track biased uncomfortable, great peak brake power/crap feel from caliper/pad selection. It makes a really really good stockish race bike, generally very far down the list overall.

The Honda in recent years with the CBR600RR has been the middle of the road, does everything great but not exceptional in anyone one area with awesome build quality and "Honda-ness". Doesn't make as good of a racebike when heavier mods have not been allowed, see DSB and the dominance of the R6. But go to the world level with WSS and the RR and 6R are much much more competitive.

Yep, the R6 calipers are so bad that all the Suzuki guys swap over to them. Makes it hard to find a used set of calipers for a decent price. Pad selection? I haven't had a single issue finding pads for the R6. It's isn't like they've used the same pad design on the R6 the last ten years or anything.

The R6 was also updated in 2008 with a better air induction system with adjustable stacks to increase the mid-range substantially.

I'll agree that it may not be the best choice for a streetbike, but that doesn't mean it isn't a popular street bike. You can't go to any place where bikes congregate without tripping over three or four R6's.

[Sirref]

^ the fact that it's a downright beautiful machine doesn't hurt it as a street bike too

[b.miller123]

Originally Posted by Sirref

^ the fact that it's a downright beautiful machine doesn't hurt it as a street bike too

I used to hate the way it looked with the long side panels. Looked way too fat, but it looks much better in person. Of course it helps that I own one now.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by b.miller123

I used to hate the way it looked with the long side panels. Looked way too fat, but it looks much better in person. Of course it helps that I own one now.

IMO the only 600cc supersport that doesn't look stunning in person is the gsxr but that's mostly bias speaking

[mania]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

Not likely...

That is what a bunch of us thought here when we bought the
2013 250 LE here in Asia
I even contacted Kawasaki Thai & asked if there was going to be a 300
in Asia
They told me 100% not for at least 2 more years
Yet 7 months later here it was the same version sold to the USA

Was a bit unhapppy about that but as the year went by have to say
I am quite happy with the 2013 250

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by mania

That is what a bunch of us thought here when we bought the
2013 250 LE here in Asia
I even contacted Kawasaki Thai & asked if there was going to be a 300
in Asia
They told me 100% not for at least 2 more years
Yet 7 months later here it was the same version sold to the USA

Was a bit unhapppy about that but as the year went by have to say
I am quite happy with the 2013 250

You got me wrong bro, I meant that even if they make an R3, it will most likely be the same as the R25 with just a bigger engine... Other components will most likely be the same. Don't expect USD forks and radial calipers and stuff...

[supersport]

Originally Posted by mania

That is what a bunch of us thought here when we bought the
2013 250 LE here in Asia
I even contacted Kawasaki Thai & asked if there was going to be a 300
in Asia
They told me 100% not for at least 2 more years
Yet 7 months later here it was the same version sold to the USA

Was a bit unhapppy about that but as the year went by have to say
I am quite happy with the 2013 250

They say that so you go and buy the 250 now. And when the 300 comes out in less then the "promised" 2years, you then go spend some more money. If they told truth, everyone will hold on to the piggy bank.

[mania]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

You got me wrong bro, I meant that even if they make an R3, it will most likely be the same as the R25 with just a bigger engine... Other components will most likely be the same. Don't expect USD forks and radial calipers and stuff...

Ah I see...my bad

[mania]

Originally Posted by supersport

They say that so you go and buy the 250 now. And when the 300 comes out in less then the "promised" 2years, you then go spend some more money. If they told truth, everyone will hold on to the piggy bank.

Yes & no because this 2013 250 which I do not think went out of Asia is
in fact the 300 with less stroke,slipper clutch & smaller throttle bodies.
So it is in itself kind of cool

Has all the same parts except those mentioned above.
New style cylinders, cooling jacket etc.
Just runs 7.8mm/ 5/16th" less stroke but a higher compression ratio.
Also the bore/stroke ratio is higher so the engine has a different characteristic than the 300 which has 2.5 ft. lbs more torque
Also the fact that I could get it without ABS was a big + for me.

I do wish some other countries had gotten it too as I would have liked to read what others thought of it too.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by b.miller123

Yep, the R6 calipers are so bad that all the Suzuki guys swap over to them. Makes it hard to find a used set of calipers for a decent price. Pad selection? I haven't had a single issue finding pads for the R6. It's isn't like they've used the same pad design on the R6 the last ten years or anything.

The R6 was also updated in 2008 with a better air induction system with adjustable stacks to increase the mid-range substantially.

I'll agree that it may not be the best choice for a streetbike, but that doesn't mean it isn't a popular street bike. You can't go to any place where bikes congregate without tripping over three or four R6's.

I mean OEM's choice in pad composition selection, and you may be right that its not the calipers but just the OEM pads that feel wooden and suck.

And even with the '08 upgrades just look at the dyno charts and the thing still gets killed in the midrange. Again not saying its an awful bike or anything (and never commented on the squids love for the R6 ... prob second only to the "gixxer squad"). Just that it didn't really fit the above description of being the great all-arounder. Its a better track weapon than a street bike in most comparisons.

[sharky nrk]

Yamaha YZF-R6
Specs
At the bottom of our street-biased rankings is the Yamaha YZF-R6, but it’s nevertheless a grin-producing machine that remains impressive. If you want the sportiest looking 600 and are willing to tolerate racy ergonomics, we can’t blame you if your fires are fanned by the sexy R6. However, be prepared for relatively lethargic midrange power, a tall seat height and the most difficult to modulate clutch that make it our least favorite for general street riding. Yamaha’s revenge may come when we take this group to the track

.

Before gathering together the Japanese supersport machines, we speculated that Honda might’ve taken the lead this year in stopping performance when it upgraded its 600 with the same or very similar mono-block calipers as found on the CBR1000RR. Then we collected all four motorcycles and gave the Ninja’s brake lever a squeeze… Kawasaki hasn’t yielded an inch of ground this year!

The Ninja’s Nissin calipers grab the pair of 300mm petal-type rotors with incredibly refined power. One pad per piston (4) helps contribute to the sensation that the rider is directly linked to the brakes. Honda’s brakes offer similar stopping prowess but simply lack the Kaw’s sublime feel. Of the Ninja’s brakes, Kevin said simply that they’re “beyond reproach.”

The Ninja’s top performing engine is complemented wonderfully by its top performing set of Nissin brakes. They’re unquestionably the best in this group.
The Ninja’s top performing engine is complemented wonderfully by its top performing set of Nissin brakes. They’re unquestionably the best in this group.
The GSX-R’s brakes – though good enough for about 99% of the riders that purchase a 600cc supersport – don’t come up to the standard of the Kawasaki. Just about all of us thought the R6’s brakes were lacking in sensitivity, but they eventually develop enough power to get the job done.

[csmith12]

Yamaha YZF-R6
Specs
At the bottom of our street-biased rankings is the Yamaha YZF-R6, but it’s nevertheless a grin-producing machine that remains impressive. If you want the sportiest looking 600 and are willing to tolerate racy ergonomics, we can’t blame you if your fires are fanned by the sexy R6. However, be prepared for relatively lethargic midrange power, a tall seat height and the most difficult to modulate clutch that make it our least favorite for general street riding. Yamaha’s revenge may come when we take this group to the track

Much like the 250 aye, it's got nothing until 8k.

If one stops and thinks about riding 2 bikes, the subtle things start to make sense.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Much like the 250 aye, it's got nothing until 8k.

If one stops and thinks about riding 2 bikes, the subtle things start to make sense.

must be why they are both so much fun at the track then huh

[choneofakind]

636 FTW!

If I ditch Kawi for the R3, id be looking to get my hands on a new gen 636