October 15th, 2014, 11:45 AM | #41 |
Certifiable nontundrum
Name: Harper
Location: NC Milkshake stand
Join Date: Mar 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2013 SE NINJA 300 Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Sep '13, Sep '16
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Crank your rear suspension, try heavy oil in your front end
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April 20th, 2015, 07:35 AM | #42 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Daren
Location: Milpitas
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 SE Posts: 106
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Update .....
Finally got around taking the 300 to a local suspension guy (Evolution Suspension in San Jose). His assessment: Front: <edit> aside of my weight (under 160lbs), and due to my riding habits (somewhat aggressive), the front is too soft. He recommended race tech springs. Rear; was set about right for my weight. However, was unbalanced to the front settings. He softened the rear (adjusted to lowest setting). This adjustment had helped, and is a bit more confidence inspiring. I plan to replace the IRC's with better rubber, as suggested. And at some point, add the Race Tech springs. I just haven't motivated myself to making the purchase, as I have other projects going on at this time. Speaking of the Diablo's, I see there are two tire choices to choose from 110/70-17 and 110/70ZR-17 What is the difference? Or, better yet, which one should I choose? Thanks for any insight. Last futzed with by Manimal; April 22nd, 2015 at 07:24 AM. |
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April 20th, 2015, 07:49 AM | #43 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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Nice!
I don't know your riding style, but the racetech spring calc doesn't take it into consideration. Some riders are heavy on the brakes, others are not. This needs to be a factor in your spring purchase.
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April 20th, 2015, 08:15 AM | #44 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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@Manimal, where did your suspension guy get the calculation from about the front spring is to soft for you?
My weight is 175 lbs and when I go to the racetech website to calculate my spring rate it gives a 0.70 kg/mm spring for me. By the way the front spring of the N250 and N300 is the same with a rate of 0.65 kg/mm (maybe Racetech didn't update their website about this, email attached). The only difference between those two bikes is that the fork oil level from the N250 is 108 +/- 2mm and from the N300 it is 100 +/- 2mm. |
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April 20th, 2015, 08:37 AM | #45 |
ninjette.org member
Name: jim
Location: texas currently in Temecula Valley CA
Join Date: May 2013 Motorcycle(s): honda crf230l & 2013 ninja 300se wife has Honda crf230l & honda cbr250r repsol Posts: 222
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I believe the stock springs are progressive rate. I set the sag on mine with pvc pipe about 1/2" long and I weigh 188 without gear. They feel pretty good but I will get straight rate springs and gold valve emulators next winter to match my 2006 GSXR rear shock i'm currently running.
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April 20th, 2015, 09:16 AM | #46 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Daren
Location: Milpitas
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 SE Posts: 106
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@Somchai - I gather he made the assessment based on the follow variables; Knowing the stock spring rate and fork oil wt, seeing the tie wrap position on the fork tubes, assessing my weight on the bike (while suited), and judging by my riding habits.
My riding; I am aggressive, but not as aggressive as some others here and that I know. I can be quite aggressive on the brakes (late braking, and trail brake). I solely use the front. I don't think I ever use the rear. Most of the territory I ride are technical (tight) back roads. I have not taken the 300 to the track, and don't think I will. I have another bike that I use for track fun. My interest is having the right tires (and suspension) for the conditions of the roads that I ride. Although, as of late, I have gotten accustomed to the squishy suspension of the 300, in kind of a good way. |
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April 21st, 2015, 06:00 PM | #47 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mat
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): '10 Kawasaki Ninja 250ARRRR (Sold), '13 Kawasaki Ninja 300 (Crashed), '07 Triumph Daytona 675 Posts: 45
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I went with Race Tech (I hear the Sonic springs are nice too!) springs based on the calculator on Race Tech's web site. I cut the spacers to give me 37 mm of sag in the front and did a 125 mm air gap with 15 wt oil.
The difference is amazing. No more bottoming out the forks under the hardest braking I can muster. There is about 1/4 in. of travel left. What happened was it showed the lack of suspension refinement in the rear. With a little cutting of the undertail, a little grinding, and some spacers and longer bolts, I fitted an '06 GSXR 600 shock. I set the sag to 35 mm by maxing out the preload. The GSXR shock is the same length as the stock 300 shock, but it is valved too stiffly for the 300 and has an incorrect spring rate for me. However, as it is now it's a huge improvement over the stock shock, has adjustable settings, and was fitted for under $100, which included professionally machined, powder coated spacers. I looked into local professional shock rebuilds (Race Tech wanted $500) with a valve kit and a new spring and it's around $350. If you can add the shock yourself, for under $500 you can have a correctly valved and sprung, adjustable shock for your 300. Fork springs, 15 wt oil and the GSXR shock made the 300 stick like glue with the stock IRTs. I can take corners on mountain roads much faster than I should or could before. I was so impressed with the springs, I ordered a set of Race Tech emulators. They made the front feel almost as good as modern cartridge forks. I still need to do some tweaking to them though. If you can do the work yourself, you can get a good front end feel for under $300. Moral of the story is, just about every penny you put into suspension will pay off in improved feel, control, and confidence. Tires are important, but they won't do much if your suspension won't keep them on the ground correctly. If you plan on doing any type of riding with the 300 or keeping any type of motorcycle, I highly recommend getting the suspension set up for you. It makes a world of difference. I started riding on a '94 Ninja 500 and soon "outgrew" it and got the Daytona 675. After coming back to the small displacement bikes, I now realize I never outgrew the 500, I was riding outside the capability of the suspension. |
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April 21st, 2015, 06:04 PM | #48 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
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Which direction do you go for a rider who is harder on the brakes? Is there a benefit for going the opposite direction?
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April 21st, 2015, 06:16 PM | #49 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mat
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): '10 Kawasaki Ninja 250ARRRR (Sold), '13 Kawasaki Ninja 300 (Crashed), '07 Triumph Daytona 675 Posts: 45
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You shouldn't select spring rates based on whether the fork bottoms out or not. You should get new springs BECAUSE your forks are bottoming out. Spring rate should be selected for rider weight and riding style, then tailored for the rider and bike using spacers to set the sag. The reason Race Tech's web site only asks for weight and riding style is because that is all you really need to get the spring rate close.
Fork oil air gap is what fine tunes utilization and prevents the forks from bottoming out. Once you get the correct rate springs and set the sag, you need to set the air gap so your forks don't bottom out under the hardest of braking, but come close. Because, honestly, that's when you need the full suspension the most, emergency stopping or hard cornering when the fork compresses. Or ideally, for going fast, the transition between the two. Last futzed with by Lemonfresh; April 21st, 2015 at 07:50 PM. |
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April 21st, 2015, 06:44 PM | #50 |
ninjette.org dude
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If there is a version that you can get without the Z-rating, all that means is that the tire hasn't been tested/guaranteed to perform safely at very high speeds. Z-rating used to just mean, anything over 149 mph. Now there are ratings even higher than that, but it's a moot point for our ninjette. We won't be within 40 mph of having to worry about tire construction at speed. If the 110/70-17 is cheaper, I'd just get that one. If they are the same price, you're fine either way.
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April 21st, 2015, 07:31 PM | #51 |
Fast-Guy wannabe
Name: Jason
Location: Brentwood, Ca
Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja250, 2011 RM-Z250, 2004 NSR50, Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jan '13
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Change your front tire to something Radial constructed and leave the stock rear on there if it has less then 4000 miles because the IRC rear is a good tire, it's the front that kills the combo.
With a good front tire an otherwise stock 300 can do more then 99% of riders can so just keep practicing and riding and stop thinking about changes that you don't really need. By the way a suspension guy who doesn't work with you at the track to understand what you need is only there to take your money and give you a small change that acts as a placebo. The funny thing about a sugar pill is how often they actually work because most limits are in your mind anyways. By the way, all those online spring rate calculators are total crap for most riding styles and unfortunately most other sources of info regarding suspension for these little bikes is incomplete or simply wrong. Best of luck getting more in tune with the bike and maybe you can join me for a ride over Mt. Hamilton some time. If you've ridden with @Alex then maybe he can chime in whether a ride with me is a good idea. |
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April 21st, 2015, 09:49 PM | #52 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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April 21st, 2015, 10:23 PM | #53 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mat
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): '10 Kawasaki Ninja 250ARRRR (Sold), '13 Kawasaki Ninja 300 (Crashed), '07 Triumph Daytona 675 Posts: 45
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I always like learning new things.
I just spent some time doing some more research and it seems I set my rear sag incorrectly. I was always told a range of 35-40 mm front and 30-35 mm rear, but found multiple sources recommending 30% of suspension travel for street use front and rear. That would put the front travel of 120 mm at the correct 37 mm of sag but my rear the rear travel of 130 mm should be around 39 mm of sag. That would give me some free sag and get the preload adjuster from being maxed out. I might not need a replacement spring after all. Suspension is never a waste of money. If you sell the bike, you can put the stock parts back and on get most of your money back out of the take offs. The spring calculators may not be the most precise way of calculating the correct spring rate for your ride, but its better than just guessing. Or buying 5 pairs of springs to find the one that's just right for you. You need a baseline to make corrections from, the calculator is a good place to start. I must have gotten lucky. The spring rate the calculator spat out for me put the front at 10 mm of pre-load and allowed me to correctly adjust the sag. Plus, it feels infinitely better than stock. Quote:
I am just sharing my experience tweaking my ride and the information I've found. Hopefully this helps someone else make their ride more enjoyable and safe. Once you feel how correct springs and adjustment work, you will want to make the rear work as well as the front. After playing around with the suspension on the 250/300 I have come to the conclusion that from now on every bike I buy will have suspension work done before anything else. All I'm saying is for the price of a set of tires and some elbow grease, you can have a decent suspension that you won't regret. |
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April 21st, 2015, 10:36 PM | #54 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Poul
Location: Seattle
Join Date: Jan 2015 Motorcycle(s): 1999 Triumph Legend "Arwen", 2006 Ninja 650 "Matsuo Hotaru". 2010 Ninja 250 "Firefly" - sold. Posts: 338
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^many times this.
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April 22nd, 2015, 03:19 AM | #55 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Can you confirm this measurement, bc all information here in the forum and also given from Ohlins and Wilbers or others say that the GSX-R600 shock from 06 until 09 has a length of 315 mm, while the N250 and N300 shock, which are the same, have a length of 320 mm? Thank you.
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April 22nd, 2015, 04:12 AM | #56 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Luis
Location: Miami
Join Date: Sep 2014 Motorcycle(s): 1995 Ninja 250, 2005 R6, 2002 Ducati Monster S4 Posts: 250
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Quote:
for those looking, I can talk about the 05 model the 05 GXSR 600 shock is not the same lenght, the mod can be done as a mod. the shock reservoir WILL get in the way for the PREGENS. there is an excel spreadsheet somewheres on the internets (maybe on this site, or the 250 site, or kawi forums) that has several shocks and their dimensions and other cool info...... I'll measuere the GXRS shock that I used to mod my pregen ninja. I needed spacers on the dogbones and cut/modify the battery box. that excel file also has the spring rates for the different shocks.. |
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April 22nd, 2015, 04:39 AM | #57 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
I didn't ask about that information for me, since I use the YSS-shock which is adjustable from 320 to 330 mm length - I use it with 325 mm what raises the rear by 15 mm and an also lowered front by 16 mm which makes the bike very easy to turn into corners. My question is about others since there are too many wrong information given everywhere, although this maybe could be right but I can't believe that it is until it's confirmed. By the way @Alex wouldn't it be an idea to have an extra section for all, every and each technical information (reason see above please)? |
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April 22nd, 2015, 06:23 AM | #58 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mat
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): '10 Kawasaki Ninja 250ARRRR (Sold), '13 Kawasaki Ninja 300 (Crashed), '07 Triumph Daytona 675 Posts: 45
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I
Quote:
This was a different case when it was on the 250. I measured a noticable difference between the 250 shock and the GSXR shock length. There was also a noticeable difference in ride height when installed on the 250. I am at 6400 miles and ride the 300 almost 500 miles a week. When it's down for the valve check I plan on servicing the swing arm bearings. When it's apart I will make as accurate a measurement as I can between the two shocks and post them here. Last futzed with by Lemonfresh; April 22nd, 2015 at 07:36 AM. |
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April 22nd, 2015, 06:54 AM | #59 | |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
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Quote:
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April 22nd, 2015, 07:09 AM | #60 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
Just one example like @garth285 now is doing that very good thing to come up with all infos about valve springs. Let's say he is done and some time has gone, somebody else who doesn't search, because thinking he's doing something important and new, will start just the same thing. I hope you understand my D-English enough to know what I mean? |
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April 22nd, 2015, 07:12 AM | #61 |
ninjette.org dude
Name: 1 guess :-)
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much.
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I think I understand, but I don't agree. I think it is helpful to have the tech areas separated by generation, with more pros than cons with that setup. With that in mind, setting up yet a separate forum for something like "suspension" seems superfluous.
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April 22nd, 2015, 07:17 AM | #62 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Daren
Location: Milpitas
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 SE Posts: 106
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Quote:
I've ridden with both you and Alex, a few occasions. Having knowing your experience on and off the track, I trust and value your input. That goes for Alex as well. " ..... most limits are in your mind anyways." You are ABSOLUTELY right! My head is so wrapped up in thinking that the IRC's are sub-par, that my mindset starts tripping and affects my riding (cornering) .... I then tend to dial it back some. Additionally, is that I don't get enough riding in to consistantly maintain muscle memory and mindset (confidence within myself and the bike). Therefore, the times that I do get out and ride, it's almost like a refresher coarse ........ sad, I know. If you guys plan a ride, let me know. Even tho' I will not be able to match your pace, it will still be fun to be out there with you guys none-the-less. As for the other replies, very insightful. I appreciate your contribution. Not only for myself, but for others as well. I will keep this thread up to date if / when I make any further changes, and share my experience. |
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April 22nd, 2015, 08:34 PM | #63 |
King Hamfist
Name: Cameron
Location: NorCal East Bay
Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Crf 150R, 2011 Hypermotard 796 Posts: 940
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Manimal just throw a decent front up there. It'll make the bike feel so much better.
It really doesn't matter what's on the rear. Bike doesn't make any real power to spin it up. so enjoy the great tire life. |
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April 24th, 2015, 07:14 AM | #64 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Daren
Location: Milpitas
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 SE Posts: 106
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Pirelli Rosso II front on order I figured to go ahead and give it a try, being I tend to wear out the front much sooner than the rear .... and that I was already ordering a set of rubber for my Grom. Update to follow soon
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April 24th, 2015, 07:33 AM | #65 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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Hmmmm why do you think this is? Unless there is something outside the norm going on here that you haven't posted, I would think you should be going through 1 to 2 rears for each front.
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April 24th, 2015, 08:04 AM | #66 | |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Matt
Location: San Diego, CA
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Triumph Bonneville; 2008 Ninja 250r (trackbike) Posts: 748
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Quote:
I would then get a good rear shock. You can do the OEM Gixxer or OEM R6 shock if you want a cheap upgrade. Or splurge the money and get a good purpose-built aftermarket shock like a Racetech, K-Tech, Penske, Nitron, Ohlins, etc. Immediately after I would then get the correct springs for your weight. You can get them from Sonic Springs or Racetech, or even K-tech. If you're getting springs, might as well get emulators from Racetech. Or if you want to splurge even more, get a cartridge kit from Racetech or K-tech I would then
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April 24th, 2015, 08:59 AM | #67 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Daren
Location: Milpitas
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 SE Posts: 106
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Quote:
Keep in mind, most of my riding include tight, technical back roads more often than sweepers, and or the freeway (or flat roads), for that matter. As for the suspension replies, I certainly am not excluding the idea. I have other projects going on, so I am spending the money where I see fit. I will eventually get there, but just not now. Once I get there, I will certainly inquire for details, and or ask more questions. I do appreciate the insight as to set up recommendations; race tech, possibly emulators, and best shock conversion. |
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May 13th, 2015, 01:53 PM | #68 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Luis
Location: Miami
Join Date: Sep 2014 Motorcycle(s): 1995 Ninja 250, 2005 R6, 2002 Ducati Monster S4 Posts: 250
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Saw this at the Ohlins website lol
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May 22nd, 2015, 08:51 AM | #69 |
R&T Suspension
Name: K Hertell
Location: San Antonio, TEXAS
Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): Too many to list Posts: 175
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If you are pretty fast or want to go fast safely you need to, at a minimum, get GVE's and springs for the front. Also go to a reputable suspension shop to do it because the RT instructions are not correct for a 250/300.
The OEM GSXR shock is better than stock but it is way too short. When wanting a well handling track bike the shock needs to be quite a bit longer than you can make the gsxr shock. We use parts from 2 different bikes shocks to make it work properly and those "Frankenshocks" win races in CMRA and WERA. |
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May 22nd, 2015, 11:31 AM | #70 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Luis
Location: Miami
Join Date: Sep 2014 Motorcycle(s): 1995 Ninja 250, 2005 R6, 2002 Ducati Monster S4 Posts: 250
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Quote:
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May 23rd, 2015, 06:11 PM | #71 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mat
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): '10 Kawasaki Ninja 250ARRRR (Sold), '13 Kawasaki Ninja 300 (Crashed), '07 Triumph Daytona 675 Posts: 45
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Quote:
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May 23rd, 2015, 06:24 PM | #72 |
R&T Suspension
Name: K Hertell
Location: San Antonio, TEXAS
Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): Too many to list Posts: 175
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The stock shock is too short
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May 23rd, 2015, 07:46 PM | #73 | |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
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Quote:
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May 26th, 2015, 08:34 AM | #74 | ||
ninjette.org member
Name: Daren
Location: Milpitas
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 SE Posts: 106
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Quote:
Quote:
The focus of my ride then became more of what was coming around each blind corner, and wicked it up on the corners with decent and or good sight lines. In short; made for a more enjoyable and fun ride |
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May 27th, 2015, 07:37 PM | #75 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mat
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): '10 Kawasaki Ninja 250ARRRR (Sold), '13 Kawasaki Ninja 300 (Crashed), '07 Triumph Daytona 675 Posts: 45
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Here are the side by side '13 300 and '07 GSXR-600 shock length comparison pictures.
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1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
May 28th, 2015, 07:04 AM | #76 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Daren
Location: Milpitas
Join Date: Nov 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300 SE Posts: 106
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Thanks for posting Hard to tell, will the upper eye of the Gixxer shock accept the upper 300 bolt as well?
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May 28th, 2015, 07:09 AM | #77 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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Plan on drilling it out, 12mm drill bit needed if memory serves me correctly.
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May 28th, 2015, 07:18 AM | #78 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mat
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): '10 Kawasaki Ninja 250ARRRR (Sold), '13 Kawasaki Ninja 300 (Crashed), '07 Triumph Daytona 675 Posts: 45
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May 28th, 2015, 07:23 AM | #79 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
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^ this, and I think 31/64" bit in a standard size would work as well and give you around 100th of an inch of clearance. Not sure how much clearance a 12mm bit gives but it would probably be close. IDK? I think other people here have used the 31/64 bit though. Just a thought if you don't have a 12mm laying around but then again 31/64 is kind of an odd ball size to have laying around as well
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May 28th, 2015, 07:24 AM | #80 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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I know others have used a 1/2 bit as well with success.
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