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View Poll Results: Can you comfortably brake while downshifting? | |||
Yes - I'm pro | 50 | 86.21% | |
No - I'm nooblet | 8 | 13.79% | |
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
July 14th, 2015, 01:00 PM | #1 |
Nooblet
Name: Akima
Location: England
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R FI Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '13
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Can you comfortably brake while downshifting?
I can't :/
I just want to know how much a suck compared to you guys... or whether it's normal to suck at this. Right now, I tend to drop one gear before I start my heavy braking, then do my braking and then down shift some more after the braking (until the revs are where I want them), then take the corner (or deal with whatever it is that causes me to brake so hard).
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July 14th, 2015, 01:03 PM | #2 |
Track Clown
Name: Chris
Location: Kingman, AZ
Join Date: May 2012 Motorcycle(s): '08 250R, 21 MV F3 800, Kawasaki 400 build Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Sep '15
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requires a lot of practice. Coming to a stop sign, i am pretty lazy and hold the clutch lever and brake with no shifting. Coming to Stop light i will shift down to 2 and coast. Then there is the track, i black out and don't remember.
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July 14th, 2015, 01:18 PM | #3 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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While riding the street, I always want to be in the relative gear for my rolling speed. When you want to go, there just is no substitute for "already" being in the proper gear to give the bike the inputs you want. Fumbling around to find the proper gear takes valuable time and attention that I would rather spend on other things. On the track, especially while coaching... I will get lazy and not shift as much and just depend on roll on power of my r6. I can't really do that on the 250, so it's back to business as usual of gear relative to speed.
Don't be hard on yourself. There are so many variants of downshifting while braking (even from the pro's). As long as it's not causing problems, your smooth about it and reaching your goals, who cares...
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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July 14th, 2015, 01:25 PM | #4 | |
Nooblet
Name: Akima
Location: England
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R FI Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '13
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Quote:
It doesn't seem to be causing me any problems and I can apply my method of braking and down-shifting smoothly. It just feels like I have to use a lot more road to slow down than I'd like to. After I've finished my braking I have to then have some extra road remaining before I hit the corner to do the final down-shifting. It just feels a bit rubbish! I'm pretty sure my fat winter gloves which bind my fingers together don't help. Maybe I'll pickup some better gloves and work on my technique. I think I read a post by Jason/rojoracing where he said he brakes and downshifts while entering a corner in the lazy fashion by not-rev matching, but letting the clutch out slowly until the engine catches up with the wheels. I can do that, but it feels so mean on the bike!
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July 14th, 2015, 01:49 PM | #5 |
Ninjette Lurker
Name: Peter
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Join Date: Jun 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2003 Ninja EX250 (Cafe, Naked, Wreckurrected) Posts: 72
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I voted as a Nooblet.. because my braking is what needs work. Hard braking. I shift fine when I'm coming to a stop or slowing for a turn, but know in a panic stop or harder braking I'd botch my shifts.
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July 14th, 2015, 02:15 PM | #6 |
ninjette.org member
Name: jim
Location: texas currently in Temecula Valley CA
Join Date: May 2013 Motorcycle(s): honda crf230l & 2013 ninja 300se wife has Honda crf230l & honda cbr250r repsol Posts: 222
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It becomes 2nd nature after a while. Practice grasshopper practice!
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July 14th, 2015, 02:16 PM | #7 | |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
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If you "panic" you lose hope of having a good outcome, and picture a bad one. That heads you down the path of either "freezing" or target-fixating. Always give yourself instructions in terms of a positive ("avoid the pothole") and never in terms of a negative ("don't hit the pothole"). |
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3 out of 3 members found this post helpful. |
July 14th, 2015, 04:16 PM | #8 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Nam
Location: Toronto
Join Date: Jul 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 Posts: 33
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Quote:
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July 14th, 2015, 04:26 PM | #9 |
vampire
Name: A
Location: IT
Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2 many 2 list Posts: A lot.
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Brakes, who needs them, they only slow you down.
--Snuffy Smith |
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July 14th, 2015, 04:27 PM | #10 |
Participant
Name: Dave
Location: South of Seattle
Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): '94 K75 std Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Aug '15
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July 14th, 2015, 04:59 PM | #11 | |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
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Quote:
You make a decision - either stop or avoid. If you choose stop, you need 100% of your concentration focused on stopping. If you choose avoid, then you need 100% of your concentration on finding the best way around. Adding in downshifting to either action complicates things too much (mostly mentally), and dropping numerous gears with the clutch in will give you a sharp lock-up of the rear when you let it out - and that's not going to help you in any way. |
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2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
July 14th, 2015, 05:08 PM | #12 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Whodat
Location: Ware Is.,MA
Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14
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Which way do you walk?
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If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough! |
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July 14th, 2015, 07:59 PM | #13 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16
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Quote:
The advantage of that is that you have a finest control on the throttle by using the lever as a reference for your wrist. Try practicing that in a safe environment, even with heavy gloves: it is just good every day motorcycling skill. This thread has many good points: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99060 I like using the braking effect of my engine combined with my front brake for any non-emergency slow-downs or stops. Downshifting and engine brake are not necessarily the same thing.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
July 14th, 2015, 08:14 PM | #14 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Greg
Location: carbondale pa
Join Date: Jul 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2011 ninja 250r Posts: 19
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I normally engine brake in whatever gear I am currently in, then clutch in to a stop completely while clutch in and braking. Occasionally with traffic I downshift instead of just engine braking in current gear. That way if I need to pull away for any reason I will be in a lower gear to do so.
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July 14th, 2015, 08:34 PM | #15 | |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
Join Date: Nov 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99/'01 Ninja 250 "sketchy", '13 Ninja 300 "yoshi", '03 GSXR 600 "merlin" Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '14
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I find it to be second nature, then again I learned how to do it heel-toe in a car. That was hell to learn in comparison. On a bike it's more of a wrist movement and becomes second nature quickly with dedicated practice, in a car you have to concentrate on it for a lot longer to get it right.
Quote:
with the engine off try using your brake lever with the tips of your fingers and allow yourself some flex to be able to move your wrist. Then work on pulling your wrist back a bit to simulate the throttle blip, do this for a bit and it should feel pretty natural. Then go into a parking lot and practice it with the engine on, 2nd-1st is the hardest so try 3rd-2nd. Hopefully you'll be comfortable with it within a few hours
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July 14th, 2015, 08:41 PM | #16 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Nam
Location: Toronto
Join Date: Jul 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 300 Posts: 33
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Quote:
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1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
July 15th, 2015, 02:06 AM | #17 | |||
Nooblet
Name: Akima
Location: England
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R FI Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '13
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Quote:
So I can comfortably completely close the throttle while applying the front brake. What I cannot do (at this moment) is blip the throttle open as a shift while braking. Quote:
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* dreams of one day changing her vote to "I'm pro" *
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July 15th, 2015, 06:51 AM | #18 | |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
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Quote:
But we are talking about efficient emergency stopping, and downshifting (you said to "stomp down on the shifter" all the way to 1st gear while braking hard) isn't part of that. Emergency braking assumes there is no other option than stopping short of an obstacle. Once you fully commit to making a complete stop as your only option, you need to do it in the most efficient way possible - and that doesn't include downshifting. |
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July 15th, 2015, 07:03 AM | #19 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Join Date: Apr 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2006 EX250-F "Sheldon" (Sold), 2010 Ninja 250R "Zeke" Posts: 129
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I've been practicing my stops on my way to work and back as well and trying to get it down to a perfected science hasn't happened yet.
My practice is to come somewhat near the sign and start a clutchless downshift (at the appropriate speeds). My right hand has my thumb and index finger on throttle duty and the rest of my fingers on the front brake. I'll apply pressure to the front and rear brake while clutchless downshifting through the gears until I hit 1st, and then I'll pull in the clutch because at that point I'm mostly complete with my stop. I've found that my braking distance has shortened considerably compared to braking without using engine braking. The part I'm trying to perfect is 1) making it second nature and 2) getting much much closer to the stop sign before I initiate this procedure, because as is I'm coasting a bit through some of the gears and I know I don't have to be. |
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July 15th, 2015, 07:25 AM | #20 | |
Hooligan
Name: Robin
Location: Central Iowa
Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja EX300 Posts: 250
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Quote:
I learned to do this early on, but as @cbinker can attest, my rider coach is not exactly easy on his pupils.
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Qui patiens est, teres. Teres est, ieiunare. | Twitter: @Rogue_300 |
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July 15th, 2015, 08:41 AM | #21 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
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Link to original page on YouTube.
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My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
July 15th, 2015, 09:04 AM | #22 | |||
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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Quote:
I wrote that with track riders in mind but it can be applied to the street with quite a bit of conservation applied. And speaking of conservation... If I understand your question properly, I don't really see much problem with what you're doing. That extra road at the end of the braking zone is a buffer to "screw it up in" without all the extra risks that comes from cornering. Although, too much buffer space can be bad, too little buffer space is also bad. Getting to where the brakes go off just as we turn in, is many rider's goal. This is harder to do on surface streets without intimate knowledge of the road your riding. Quote:
Quote:
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
July 15th, 2015, 10:47 AM | #23 |
Nooblet
Name: Akima
Location: England
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R FI Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '13
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I've realised I worded my poll badly so it's not going to give me the info I wanted (not that it matters that much, as I'm not competing... just curious).
I wasn't trying to find out if people could pull the clutch all the way in, brake and down-shift. That's easy - even for a first-day on two wheels nooblet. I was trying to find out if people could properly down-shift (blipping, rev-matching and clutch pretty much constantly engaged) while braking. As a side note: I think @jkv45 is right on the mark with his recommendation about shifting while emergency braking. If I decide I need to stop very fast to avoid hitting something very hard, then I do not give two flying f***s about shifting. The fact I am emergency braking means I have already failed the more important task of pre-emptively avoiding a potential incident and right now I'm seconds away from hitting something fast and hard (which probably means serious injury or death). If I get into that kind of situation (has happened), every ounce of my being is devoted to my decision to stop as quickly as possible, shaving as much speed off as possible and all the while keeping tyre side down. I think if you've got enough time and attention left that you can brake and down shift, then it's not an emergency it's just a manoeuvre. Also: love your comment about not calling it "panic braking" @jkv45. So true. Form follows thought. You think "panic brake" you panic. You think "emergency brake", you treat it like an emergency (something that requires your full attention). The stuff I'm talking about in this thread (as @csmith12 has just pointed out) doesn't have much to do with emergency situations and is arguably actually not even that relevant to street riding. I already ride much faster than pretty much every vehicle I encounter on the road. I just recently recognised that my lack of ability to brake while down-shifting (clutch engaged) is slowing me down... which on the street shouldn't be that much concern! (but it's fun going fast) (safely!!).
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July 15th, 2015, 02:50 PM | #24 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: .
Location: .
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MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14
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Yepp, can do it in my car too. Doesn't matter if it's 1 gear drop or 3...
Just keep practicing, get a feel for the blip needed, and it will become second nature. |
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July 15th, 2015, 03:14 PM | #25 | ||
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16
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Quote:
It may be related to the size of your hand and forearm. I have big hands and long arms and find it very easy to do. Consider that properly blipping to match rpm's does not take a lot of angular rotation of the handle. This may be a temporary palliative: If the throttle is kept partially open while applying brake, the engine is then under load because it is fighting the decreasing speed of the bike and as soon as you apply the clutch, the engine rpm's increase and less wrist movement is needed. You are welcome Carefully study the timing and hand movements shown in the video of that thread. Quote:
Doing it simultaneously and automatically is safer and, again, a good skill that all proficient rider should try to master. I believe it is safer because all sequence of control that becomes precise, smooth and automatic liberates your attention to be focused on the real danger: traffic. This remarkable quote from our mutual friend is a good summary of the reasons that should push us to tireless improve in order to achieve graceful riding. "To me... It's a state of mind before you even get on the bike. A reminder to NOT rush anything, ride beyond my comfort, to relax and flow. ie.. to ride "Gracefully". And fyi... not rushing doesn't mean you can't perform the action quickly. To think of it in a different way... You can only ride as fast as your mind can process what is going on and be able to pre-emptively know for 99% sure what the outcome will be. Once a rider has ran out of that ability to know, they are riding fast to be riding fast vs. riding slow to go fast." - csmith12
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
July 15th, 2015, 03:42 PM | #26 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Ray
Location: 48162
Join Date: Aug 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250 Posts: 450
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Once you learn how to blip the throttle and hit the downshift lever you'll get used to it pretty quick and then before you realize it you'll do it all the time.
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July 16th, 2015, 12:36 PM | #27 | |
Nooblet
Name: Akima
Location: England
Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R FI Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '13
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Quote:
I noticed today that my hands are sometimes quite rigid. That's probably a big part of why I can't do it.
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July 16th, 2015, 01:06 PM | #28 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
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When learning to blip, you need to start with the controls and the angle of your hand while riding. Some adjustment may been needed.
During braking and downshifting, your bp is different than cornering. Try to angle the controls in a straight line as your wrist while in your braking bp for optimum braking power with two fingers, maximum reach and allow the range of motion to perform the throttle movement needed. The 250/300 needs a bit more twist than a i4 supersport. Once you learn to slide your fingers over the lever while maintaining pressure for effective braking (this is the hard part), the throttle movement becomes super easy. Once the basic movements are learned the next thing will be to learn to brake harder and harder while timing the downshifts at just the right speed. Your common errors will be the front of the bike pogoing up and down from varied lever pressure and downshifting too early and using the engine as a brake. Pro Tip: Adjust your clutch lever to where the friction zone is near the end of the lever travel. We adjust them this way so you don't have to pull the clutch lever so far in during the blip. You only want to pull the clutch just far enough to get well into the friction zone, so the throttle rev does not surge the bike forward.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
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July 16th, 2015, 02:41 PM | #30 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: .
Location: .
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MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14
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^^^it's a curling motion with your fingers, combined with a quick rotation of the wrist.
Once you get it, you can do it without thought and all the time. You can even practice with blipping with a harder throttle twist to gain rpm's faster and shorten the overall downshift time. You may find it's easier to practice at higher RPM's (above 8k) vs doing it at lower engine speeds. The engine is more responsive there. |
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
July 26th, 2015, 10:25 PM | #32 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Mike
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): LOTS! 14 -675R Daytona, 13 ZX6R, 14 GSXR 1000, 13 GSXR 600, 07 SV650, 14 300 Ninja, 13 300 Ninja Posts: 47
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If you still cant get the hang of it replace the clutch with a slipper clutch, lighten the rear rotor by milling most of it away and you too will be drifting the back end sideways will downshifting into your favorite stop sign corners!
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July 27th, 2015, 08:16 AM | #33 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
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My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
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July 28th, 2015, 03:42 PM | #34 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Jaxon
Location: Lasalle co, IL
Join Date: Jul 2015 Motorcycle(s): TRX 450 R Quad, no street Posts: 20
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Lots of similarities in dirt and street
I've ridden street bikes all of 2 times but this is super natural to me as I've track and trail ridden everything from a blaster 200 to a TRX700XX and almost everything in between, only thing left on my bucket list is quadzilla.
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