Sudden brake caused engine to die?

[linkinpark9812]

Long story short. Outside temp about 45, Ninja coolant only getting to about 150-160. Going about 20-25. Person reversing out of a parking spot. No need to brake really hard, so I mostly braked with the rear brake (locked it up though). Engine died. Coasted, restarted it no problem, picked up and went.

It's a 2012 Ninja 250 with regular maintenance and about 5k miles. I have heard of the oil light coming on for a couple seconds sometimes when you heavy brake, but nothing else.

If you hear the starter stutter in the video, it is because I had to merge to clips together because the camera decided to split them there so there is an overlap. The starter sounds/works fine.

Here is the video:

http://youtu.be/3v1pHfqi9G4

Thoughts?

[allanoue]

rear tire stopped turning so the engine stopped turning

[alex.s]

thoughts- don't use so much rear brake

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by linkinpark9812

..........Thoughts?

You did stall the engine by blocking the rear tire and failing to disconnect it from the engine via clutch.

We cannot afford being a sitting duck in traffic; your clutch is your best friend

The MSF basic course teaches using the four controls at once during an emergency stop: rear brake, front brake, clutch and shifter.

[linkinpark9812]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You did stall the engine by blocking the rear tire and failing to disconnect it from the engine via clutch.

We cannot afford being a sitting duck in traffic; your clutch is your best friend

The MSF basic course teaches using the four controls at once during an emergency stop: rear brake, front brake, clutch and shifter.

I'm almost 1,000% sure I pulled the clutch in. I've locked the rear tire before with no problems. Maybe this time I somehow forgot to, because I never thought to think that because I always pull that clutch in when full braking like this.

Maybe it was just this one time I forgot. Would make sense for this one "freak time" thing. I also noticed I didn't do my usual downshifting during a braking incident like this, so maybe it was just something that simple.

[jkv45]

I think they are right - you stalled it by locking the rear wheel with the clutch out.

Hopefully you didn't need to stop really quickly, because locking the rear brake isn't going to do it.

Go to a parking lot (in good weather conditions) and practice your stopping. Use the front to get the best stopping. You can also use the rear, but if you are on the front as hard as you should be the rear will have minimal weight and contact and won't contribute much. Locking the rear can cause problems if it steps out to the side and you need to change directions.

When it really hits the fan, the front is what's going to save you. Using only the front in a stressful situation simplifies the process and lets you concentrate on the one, most important, action that will give you the best ability to stop quickly.

[linkinpark9812]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I think they are right - you stalled it by locking the rear wheel with the clutch out.

Hopefully you didn't need to stop really quickly, because locking the rear brake isn't going to do it.

Go to a parking lot (in good weather conditions) and practice your stopping. Use the front to get the best stopping. You can also use the rear, but if you are on the front as hard as you should be the rear will have minimal weight and contact and won't contribute much. Locking the rear can cause problems if it steps out to the side and you need to change directions.

When it really hits the fan, the front is what's going to save you. Using only the front in a stressful situation simplifies the process and lets you concentrate on the one, most important, action that will give you the best ability to stop quickly.

No, this instance wasn't much at all. I didn't even need to stop as far back as I did. I've done brake runs before. That front brake, even though only one on the 250, stops pretty freaking quick.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by linkinpark9812

No, this instance wasn't much at all. I didn't even need to stop as far back as I did. I've done brake runs before. That front brake, even though only one on the 250, stops pretty freaking quick.

Good that it wasn't a close call, but even unexpectedly locking the rear and stalling can easily put you in an unsafe situation.

I guess I'm just suggesting that you analyze your reaction to that situation and decide what to do differently next time.

[choneofakind]

You know if you let off the back brake with the clutch out before you stop moving, the engine will bump start again... (ONLY IF THE REAR ISN'T SIDEWAYS!!!)


Read through Twist of The Wrist 2. It talks about SR's. You just discovered one; the brake panic grab, or in this case, going Hulk on the rear brake.

[EsrTek]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

going Hulk on the rear brake.

Soooo easy to do without meaning too w stock adjustments on rear.

I'd highly suggest everyone adjust that lever when you 1st get the bike to prevent stomping on it.
Doing so on mine, after 1st lockup and going sideways, and I never locked it again.

[linkinpark9812]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You know if you let off the back brake with the clutch out before you stop moving, the engine will bump start again... (ONLY IF THE REAR ISN'T SIDEWAYS!!!)


Read through Twist of The Wrist 2. It talks about SR's. You just discovered one; the brake panic grab, or in this case, going Hulk on the rear brake.

Ya I was sideways a little in the video until I almost came to a complete stop, in which I just coasted a little but probably not enough to bump start it so I just hit the button and went the easy route.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Soooo easy to do without meaning too w stock adjustments on rear.

I'd highly suggest everyone adjust that lever when you 1st get the bike to prevent stomping on it.
Doing so on mine, after 1st lockup and going sideways, and I never locked it again.

That would solve the locking problem - but what have you really gained?

If you are using the front to its full potential the back becomes nothing more than a distraction.

You can learn to do complicated tasks easily if you practice them in a controlled environment when you are relaxed and ready. Things change in an unexpected situation where you get a big hit of adrenalin and are under significant stress.

Simplify and focus on only one task in time of danger or stress. That would be the front brake if you absolutely need to stop NOW.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by jkv45

That would solve the locking problem - but what have you really gained?

If you are using the front to its full potential the back becomes nothing more than a distraction.

You can learn to do complicated tasks easily if you practice them in a controlled environment when you are relaxed and ready. Things change in an unexpected situation where you get a big hit of adrenalin and are under significant stress.

Simplify and focus on only one task in time of danger or stress. That would be the front brake if you absolutely need to stop NOW.

Watching the video and going by what OP said it did not look like a emergency stop. He was caught off guard by the lock up (why the clutch was pulled too late). This time of year with the cold and likely cinders all over the road do to resent snow it happens, and you need to know that. Slow speed braking on sketchy roads, I think the rear break is a good choice.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Watching the video and going by what OP said it did not look like a emergency stop. He was caught off guard by the lock up (why the clutch was pulled too late). This time of year with the cold and likely cinders all over the road do to resent snow it happens, and you need to know that. Slow speed braking on sketchy roads, I think the rear break is a good choice.

You are correct - it didn't look like there was a need to brake hard at that time - and the rear would be effective if speeds (and traction) were low. As speeds increase the effectiveness of the rear decreases.

Thing is, that situation could have quickly been dangerous where you'd need to stop quickly. High contrast (heavy shadows) and plenty of parked cars that could back out at any time. There's even one backing-out right as it stalls (is that why he braked?).

[EsrTek]

Originally Posted by jkv45

That would solve the locking problem - but what have you really gained?

If you are using the front to its full potential the back becomes nothing more than a distraction.

You can learn to do complicated tasks easily if you practice them in a controlled environment when you are relaxed and ready. Things change in an unexpected situation where you get a big hit of adrenalin and are under significant stress.

Simplify and focus on only one task in time of danger or stress. That would be the front brake if you absolutely need to stop NOW.

You gain the knowledge that even a panic stomp on rear is harder to lock it.
You gain the ability to use that rear brake effectively in corners, where you should NEVER touch the front (while leaned).

I whole heartily disagree w/ this second statement, and pretty much the rest of your post...
If your using front brakes only, your doing it WRONG (IMHO).
Building the wrong muscle memories and in a emergency, will revert to front brakes, when rear is what would've kept your bike rubber side down.

I'm too lazy to search, but I strongly recall proof that braking w/ front and rear in all conditions is fastest way to stop.

Learning and practicing use of both brakes is best option, and learning when/where each has it benefits or drawbacks is essential.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

You gain the knowledge that even a panic stomp on rear is harder to lock it.
You gain the ability to use that rear brake effectively in corners, where you should NEVER touch the front (while leaned).

I whole heartily disagree w/ this second statement, and pretty much the rest of your post...
If your using front brakes only, your doing it WRONG (IMHO).
Building the wrong muscle memories and in a emergency, will revert to front brakes, when rear is what would've kept your bike rubber side down.

I'm too lazy to search, but I strongly recall proof that braking w/ front and rear in all conditions is fastest way to stop.

Learning and practicing use of both brakes is best option, and learning when/where each has it benefits or drawbacks is essential.

Do whatever you feel is best, but practicing something and doing it in an emergency situation aren't the same...and your muscles don't have memory - it's all in your head.

If you "panic" you're doing it wrong...

[quarterliter]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

You gain the knowledge that even a panic stomp on rear is harder to lock it.
You gain the ability to use that rear brake effectively in corners, where you should NEVER touch the front (while leaned).

I'm too lazy to search, but I strongly recall proof that braking w/ front and rear in all conditions is fastest way to stop.

Learning and practicing use of both brakes is best option, and learning when/where each has it benefits or drawbacks is essential.

I highly doubt that you would be close to the performance achieved by the magazine test. First off you are expecting to stop. When it is a surprise you don't have any planning about what to do. Secondly even if you were expecting it, they use track experienced riders which most of these members aren't. So your mental capacity to perform complex tasks could probably not handle managing both operations as well as pulling in the clutch.

In real world operations in basically ideal condition (clean road, no rain etc) I would wager you would stop quicker focusing on the front brake. With decent tires on the ninja, you can raise the rear tire slightly off the ground. Now how much stopping can it do up there. Kevin Schwantz never bothered to use the rear, so I'm pretty sure you don't need it.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

............You gain the ability to use that rear brake effectively in corners, where you should NEVER touch the front (while leaned)......

With moderation, you can use either one while leaned; if a strong braking is needed, standing up the bike first is advisable.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134072

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114555

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149961

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

You gain the knowledge that even a panic stomp on rear is harder to lock it.
You gain the ability to use that rear brake effectively in corners, where you should NEVER touch the front (while leaned).

I whole heartily disagree w/ this second statement, and pretty much the rest of your post...
If your using front brakes only, your doing it WRONG (IMHO).
Building the wrong muscle memories and in a emergency, will revert to front brakes, when rear is what would've kept your bike rubber side down.

I'm too lazy to search, but I strongly recall proof that braking w/ front and rear in all conditions is fastest way to stop.

Learning and practicing use of both brakes is best option, and learning when/where each has it benefits or drawbacks is essential.

Just to clarify a few things -

You should never have a "panic" stop. Any time you panic you lose the ability to reason, focus, and find a positive solution to the problem - you've given up. In an unexpected emergency stop you need to react quickly - the sooner you apply the brakes firmly the more distance you will gain from braking - to get the shortest stopping distance. That's why it needs to be simple.

NEVER touch the front brake while leaned? Ever heard of Trail Braking? It needs to be done precisely, but is a very common braking technique.

If you think you can "stomp" the rear while leaned even if you have it adjusted not to lock you're wrong. As you lean over you get reduced traction because you are now asking the tire for cornering traction as well as straight-line traction - and you can't have both - so the rear will lock when leaning a lot easier than it will straight-up. Adding rear brake also makes the cycle stand-up - which is exactly what you DON'T want. You should be setting you speed at the entrance of the corner, and if you find you are in too hot - just lean more. That's way better than adding rear brake or going straight off the corner.

I guess I do agree with one thing you said - " learning when/where each has it benefits or drawbacks is essential." That's true. But, you need to realize that techniques that work at 25 mph don't work the same at 50 mph - there are changes in weight transfer that occur that alter the braking balance. If you ride around at 25 mph all day using the rear brake only you might think it works great - until you try the same technique at higher speeds.

I use both brakes all the time - off road. Traction and speeds are low, there's minimal weight transfer when braking, and the rear works well.

Using both on the street is fine, but you need to know that things change as speeds and braking forces increase, and if you rely significantly on the rear brake you will be in for a surprise when serious braking is required. All that "muscle memory" you built-up is going to let you down.

[EsrTek]

Yawn - thought we agreed to disagree...guess you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Jeff.

My post was made in spirit of a newer rider in mind, and not getting to advance practices debate.
Your post is making a lot of assumptions and twisting to fit your agenda, I will not partake.

All I said was adjustment makes it less likely to lock if someone DOES panic.
How that means I advocate people locking back and practice it is beyond me...but whatever.

(haven't ignored anyone in awhile, welcome to the list)

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Yawn - thought we agreed to disagree...guess you can't handle someone disagreeing with you Jeff.

My post was made in spirit of a newer rider in mind, and not getting to advance practices debate.
Your post is making a lot of assumptions and twisting to fit your agenda, I will not partake.

All I said was adjustment makes it less likely to lock if someone DOES panic.
How that means I advocate people locking back and practice it is beyond me...but whatever.

(haven't ignored anyone in awhile, welcome to the list)

My posts were with a new rider (like yourself) in mind also.

I guess you missed my point. Teaching someone to rely on a (more) ineffective rear brake is dangerous. Learn to use the front - it's the business end.

It's Jay - not Jeff. Erik.

[EsrTek]

So to clarify this a bit more and educate certain people, I re-found a small bit that also must come from a "new rider". There is tons more like this, that I follow, if you choose not too, that's on you! ...but these are the people I would take advice from!!

There is a weird phenomenon as one gains experience on a motorcycle in regards to the usage of the rear brake. As novice riders, we are taught to use the rear brake in conjunction with the front brake, and in rider training courses like the one put on by the MSF, this is a skill that is practiced out on the range. Out on the road, it is not uncommon then to see the rear brake light of a new rider dance with light, as a foot covering the rear brake toggles the brake light switch on and off.
As we progress and gain some more experience as motorcyclists, the trend is to stop using the rear brake entirely — relying solely on the front brake for our stopping needs. Go to enough track days and eventually you will see a motorcycle fail a tech inspection because the rider thought the rear brake was so unnecessary as to remove it completely from the machine — for the weight savings, of course.
As a rider’s skill set on a motorcycle improves though, a new love affair is found with the rear brake. Talk to any professional motorcycle racer about their rear brake, and you will begin to realize there is a huge role that the rear brake plays in bike stability, which at times makes no sense to a layman — something exemplified by Casey Stoner’s frequent use of the rear brake while also hard on the throttle.
Not quite diving that deep, Scott Russell (of Mr. Daytona fame) and Nick Ienatsch (of FasterSafer.com) explain why you should fall in love again with your rear brake, as well as giving some tips on how to modify your bike to get the most out of braking with both the front and rear tires. Enjoy!

Link to original page on YouTube.

PS *Jay* your "advice" is killed in the first 10secs of clip

New riders, do your own due diligence and decide what fits you and what levels of experience riders you'll take advice from.. don't take any of our opinions as fact.

[jkv45]

Hummm...it says the video doesn't exist...

Also, now you are quoting MotoGP riders and experienced racers. The reasons they use it aren't the same for street riders. I thought we were talking about new riders here...

The rear brake has uses, and I told you I use it all the time, but it's usefulness changes. Many new riders who like to ride at lower speeds rely on it all the time, and my point is when you need it the most it becomes almost worthless.

My other point is that when you are under stress, surprised, or affected by adrenalin, your responses and abilities are not the same as they are in a relaxed controlled environment.

I though you were ignoring me...

[DEFY]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Link to original page on YouTube.

fixed

[csmith12]

lol

[Alex]

There are plenty of rear brake argument threads here already. Do we need another?

link to riding skills sticky thread

[csmith12]

My pic was a joke. No drama here.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Alex

There are plenty of rear brake argument threads here already. Do we need another?

Sorry Alex, but this discussion is important and relevant to the issue the OP had.

I'm trying to suggest to the OP that locking of the rear wheel and stalling the engine is a sign that he needs to re-think his reaction to the situation and what he could do differently if he had needed to make a very short emergency stop in a similar situation.

I believe he may be a new rider and is doing the majority of his braking with the rear brake - and I feel that is not a safe habit to get into.

[Alex]

For what it's worth, I'm in agreement with you on all points - but none of this is particularly novel. That said, this doesn't have to turn into yet another religious-like battle of when intelligent people choose to use (or not use) the rear brake. If that's the goal, there are threads filled with arguments and data to support various viewpoints, so I provided some links. The reason I think that's helpful is that people then have a chance to at least gain the viewpoints that have already been shared rather than jumping to the beginning and creating an identically heated thread that the OP will tune out of quickly anyway.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Alex

For what it's worth, I'm in agreement with you on all points - but none of this is particularly novel. That said, this doesn't have to turn into yet another religious-like battle of when intelligent people choose to use (or not use) the rear brake. If that's the goal, there are threads filled with arguments and data to support various viewpoints, so I provided some links. The reason I think that's helpful is that people then have a chance to at least gain the viewpoints that have already been shared rather than jumping to the beginning and creating an identically heated thread that the OP will tune out of quickly anyway.

I apologize to everyone for the discussion turning into a pissing match.

Unfortunately, unless this issue was brought to the OP's attention he may never be aware that what he thought was the problem was really just a symptom of a bigger more serious problem.

Not many people are going to search for a solution to a problem they don't know they have...