Motorcycle First Aid Question

[Road Dawg1]

My military first aid class this weekend got me thinking about motorcycle first aid.

When you have a person down, the first thing to do is establish ABC (airway, breathing, circulation). If the person down is wearing a full face helmet, now what? Helmets cover your mouth and nose, so assisted breathing isn't going to happen unless it gets removed. HOWEVER - I think we all know you should assume the high risk of a neck injury and NOT remove a helmet. You might be able to do a jaw thrust to open the airway, but I doubt it.

Going off of hearsay or winging it could screw up the person I'm trying to help, so are there recommendations for motorcycle first aid?

BTW, my instructor said we leave the helmet on for 2 reasons - possible neck injuries and to keep the head from swelling?

[Flying]

"Head Swelling" isn't a consideration by civilian EMTs, spinal injuries indicated by head/neck/back pain is.
You ALWAYS keep the helmet on unless if there is an airway obstruction and/or need for an advanced airway.

[nickjpass]

I have no medical experience.

But, I think if the helmet can't be removed, and you can't access his airways (mouth, nose) then maybe a tracheotomy?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Flying

"Head Swelling" isn't a consideration by civilian EMTs, spinal injuries indicated by head/neck/back pain is.
You ALWAYS keep the helmet on unless if there is an airway obstruction and/or need for an advanced airway.

This is how I was trained.

[NevadaWolf]

I just went through a brief course that covered basic aid at a motorcycle accident scene. It included the proper way to remove the helmet if necessary.

I suck at describing it so won't, but the key points were very slowly, being very steady and smooth, and with constant support to the neck (either from someone else or something under their neck/head).

But it can be done if it is necessary.

[Flying]

For those who are interested:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[MrAtom]

Great question. Something more people should definitely consider.

Also, this is pretty relevant and definitely worth seeing:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Rifleman]

geeze, I hope to be that good of a first respond on the scene.

People will stand around and watch, but you can get a lot of people to do things for you, cell phone for help, direct traffic around the scene, guide EMT response to the scene.

just takes someone who is thinking and that guy was on the ball.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Hmm, i got to see if they have any classed for stuff like this. Be good to have the knowledge to help if ever needed. Reading up on it only goes so far. To actually be able to practise hands on would help ingrain it.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette

Hmm, i got to see if they have any classed for stuff like this. Be good to have the knowledge to help if ever needed. Reading up on it only goes so far. To actually be able to practise hands on would help ingrain it.

Trust me, you don't want the practice. Your local fire department should offer the basic accident scene management training free of charge. The biggest take aways are some fundamental rules, learn CPR and to pray you never need to use it.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Trust me, you don't want the practice. Your local fire department should offer the basic accident scene management training free of charge. The biggest take aways are some fundamental rules, learn CPR and to pray you never need to use it.

I meant in a classroom environment. I just got the recertification for first aid and CPR and it made me think of it.

Reading or watching a video on how to remove a helmet is good, but having someone physically show you and practices is better.

It is a skill i never want to have to use.

[csmith12]

, it is. From experience... real life is somewhat different.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Always is.

With hands on training it just makes it a smaller jump to real life in comparison to reading/videos. I just want to be as prepared as i can if, god forbid, this ever happens.

[snot]

Well, I took the full course of first aid and CPR in a nursing program. I keep up on my CPR and first aid, I hope I never have to use it (CPR part). The first thing we can ALL do is wear our gear, 2nd is pay attention and do not ride above your skill (track is the place to test, medics are all around) and finally watch out for the other guy. If your friend is acting like then tell them.always call 911 in an emergency, they can walk you through basic first aid over the phone.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

geeze, I hope to be that good of a first respond on the scene.

People will stand around and watch, but you can get a lot of people to do things for you, cell phone for help, direct traffic around the scene, guide EMT response to the scene.

just takes someone who is thinking and that guy was on the ball.

The reason they were standing around doing nothing is because he asserted himself as a leader and they fell into the Bystander effect. If he wasn't there, I still think he still would have gotten help. Hope the guy was okay.

[NevadaWolf]

The other thing to consider is realistically, how many people can physically fit in the space around the rider to render aid? There was a nurse there, someone holding his head, and one guy doing all the talking. Really, unless someone outranks the nurse as far as field experience, not many more folks could directly help.

I also wonder out of that huge group how many realized they were useless with the patient and so set themselves up to watch and guide traffic without prompting? There were were folks facing the northbound traffic, I'm positive at least one person was down around the corner watching for southbound.

There was also the guys who dealt with the bike one their own (though, really, it could have stayed put as it wasn't in the immediate way from what I could see).

I wonder how many folks called 911 as soon as possible, also realizing they were useless to aid the patient directly. Dispatch probably received several calls right away and they zeroed in on the one giving direct information.

I know in the one accident I've been there for, that's what we did. There was already four folks helping the rider, others standing around to watch traffic, and I pushed my SPOT SOS button. Then went up the road to slow down traffic and warn them of the herd of bikes.

After a few moments, there was nothing left for the rest of the folks to do so we just stood around and waited for someone to need something.

Sure, most folk are sheep, but it doesn't take much to take the urge to help and figure out a way on your own.

[Alex]

A sticky in our crash section:

Motorcycle Accident Scene Management

[tfkrocks]

I'd say do w/e you need to take care of ABC's. Ideally you'd want to leave the rider's helmet on and the head/spine alone until first responders show up with better equipment to help with it, but if it's in the way, try your best to remove the helmet without neck movement. Do what you have to do because it's better for the rider to stay alive. If you're in cell range, the dispatcher might advise you on the best course of action based on the rider's condition.

Another thing to consider is how many things might be going on with a rider in an accident. There might be so many things wrong that there really isn't one place to start and it might be a lost cause. Sometimes there's just already been too much much trauma. The sad part is if you're doing CPR, the outlook probably isn't good. Real life is a bitch

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

The reason they were standing around doing nothing is because he asserted himself as a leader and they fell into the Bystander effect. If he wasn't there, I still think he still would have gotten help. Hope the guy was okay.

oh I totally agree, most people are more then happy to help, but usually it takes someone to ask... and coordinate.

He asked for people to help and they did, people are very helpful, just need to be asked.

I'm also amazed how many people keep their helmet on... shows how "comfortable" they feel with the helmet on.

All in all something to think about when on that long straight flat stretch of road you ride every day... What Sould I Do


WSID

[wvninjamom]

In my MSF course, they gave us stickers to put on our helmets (if we wanted to ) that say "In case of accident, DO NOT remove helmet". Just in case there is a bystander that doesn't know what to do.

[Ninjinsky]

One of these perhaps?
http://www.cesarmed.com/en/products/respiration

I personally wouldn't touch an American until you get your lawyers under control

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

I personally wouldn't touch an American until you get your lawyers under control

In the US, depending on your location/state. If you do nothing, you're at fault just the same if you help and do it wrong. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Check your state/location if they require "Duty to Rescue" without fault.

[LittleRedNinjette]

If you are trained in first add/cpr and help someone you are covered under the Good Samaritan Act. I think this also covers someone assisting after an accident.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Great question. Something more people should definitely consider.

Also, this is pretty relevant and definitely worth seeing:

Link to original page on YouTube.

Good video, that guy was definitely on the ball, here you have around 50 people and most can't do anything, mean while this guy is thinking about the guy who's injured, his bike, oncoming traffic, 911 call, emt, etc. etc.

Only bit of criticism i'd add would he should have been asking the guy math questions, such as, what's 10 + 10? 35 +72? or, what state are you in? Not just sitting there asking him about where he is, tell you the truth he probably wouldn't know anyway, I don't know half the roads I ride on.

[Klondike1020]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I have no medical experience.
But, I think if the helmet can't be removed, and you can't access his airways (mouth, nose) then maybe a tracheotomy?

If I ever crash, and you are there. Please just wait for an ambulance and make sure cars dont run me over.

I am sure your ridding buddies appreciate the enthusiasm..... but
The last thing you want is a "confused" person trachin you on the road side with a bic pen tub lol.

Luckily - if you look at statistics , I would bet the only motorcycle accidents that list suffocation as cause of death - are probably drownings.

Spinal injury, dismemberment, internal bleeding. Probably the leading causes of death.

If I ask Questions of someone who has had a possible head injury. I ask Where do you live, are you married, how old are you, where do you work.
That way you can tell how coherent they are. One time I found a teenager blacking out drunk lying in an alley in the city, looking at him I knew he wasn't from around there. So I took his cellphone out of his pocket and called his parents to come pick him up and stayed with him until they did.

Right as I picked him up and put him in the back seat of his moms car the police pulled up because they thought it was a kidnapping lol!

In an accident, I would wait to call any kin until the ambulance tells you what hospital they are going to.

Watching accident videos regularly sure keeps my impulses in check

A lot of these emergency techniques are useful in everyday life, Snow boarding, construction work even bicycling.

The world is a dangerous place.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by Klondike1020

If I ask Questions of someone who has had a possible head injury. I ask Where do you live, are you married, how old are you, where do you work.
That way you can tell how coherent they are.

Exactly. The questions aren't to test how smart you are or what level of education you have, they are more to see how aware you are of your surroundings. And, far more importantly, if your answers change through repeated questions. Always note what the person says and how it changes before the ambulance gets there.

I seriously doubt any EMT is looking for exact coordinates of the wreck site or an address. "Where are you?" can be as simple as "I was riding my bike, and wrecked... I don't know." Or if you are feeling snarky "On my back in a ditch on the side of the road." But answers like "i was at school/work..." or a panicked reaction to genuinely being unaware of where they are or what happened may mean something serious is going on.

I've seen patients with head injuries lying in a hospital and convinced they were at their house that they lived in 20 years prior, asking for family members long dead.

Simple, general, every day questions can give you an insight to what's going on in their head.

[nickjpass]

I never said I'd do it lol!!!

[Klondike1020]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I never said I'd do it lol!!!

Everyone watch out! someone on this forum (whom I will not name)

is just aching to get all neck stabby!!!!

dont practice on people.... use a road killed deer or a unloved pet lol

Link to original page on YouTube.

[nickjpass]

Not watching it...

[cadd]

Great thread!!! Not watching that last video though.