Florida Forces all Riders under 21 to have Under 21 plates

[JohnnyBravo]

I'd say the vast majority in Fl drive like asses, and the northern plates and grannies are the worst, def stay out of the ghetto in jax, these folks cray cray

Oh yea something about the plate... Get over it

[Aggrotech]

ive never understood people who say stupid **** like "get over it" when it comes to issues.

lol ur government is spying on you? guess everyone should get over it. Too busy picking out what ridiculous smartphone ur getting next, even though you've had the current one for only a year. gotta upgrade yo!

Letting the government literally do anything they want is exactly why the NSA bs is allowed to happen, its why states across the country are saying f*ck woman and taking away abortion clinics, its why legalized bribery is allowed in our political system, because nobody does anything about it and they ignore it.

Gotta have dat 60" plasma tv mang, fck what the government is doing to us lol.

the patriot act...nuff said.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Panda

What percentage of accidents involve collisions involving a sudden stop at greater than 15 MPH?

No idea. But the higher the speed of impact, the higher the risk for death and injury.

I know two people that don't have TBI and they were both traveling at speeds greater than 15MPH when they hit their heads. Point being that anecdotal evidence is just that...anecdotal.

The speed they were traveling is irrelevant. Its the direct impact speed that counts. If they hit a brick wall at 45 mph, they will die. But if they deflected off something, like a windshield, then its not direct. Its just simple physics.

What do you call it when a decision one person makes and another person has to financial pay for?

Again, that's just an assumption that it does cost taxpayers anything. But as a society, we have to pay for other people's decisions all the time. For example, I never go to a brick and mortar library, but I am forced to pay taxes so that the few people who do can do so free of charge. If other people would stop going to libraries, our taxes would be a lot lower.

It kind of sounds like you are arguing against helmets in general. Do you doubt the efficacy of helmets?

Not at all. I wear one all the time and it has already saved me from facial injury in a low side, but they have limits as to what they will and wont do. Just saying, in a low side, they are great, but in a direct impact collision, not so great.

[JohnnyBravo]

The government I can't talk much about till my contract is up. Go protest and stuff then, write congress and such

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Panda

Except that's not the way it works now. I bear the burden as a helmeted rider with insurance and a taxpayer in the form of increased taxes and higher insurance premiums.

it will always effect you as long as the government is involved...
so in order to accomplish what you want, the government need to get out of paying for medical expenses.

that alone would change the game immensely.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Again, that's just an assumption that it does cost taxpayers anything.

I disagree that it's an assumption. Not only from a taxpayer point of view but from a higher insurance premium point of view. http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/p...ike/costs.html

But as a society, we have to pay for other people's decisions all the time. For example, I never go to a brick and mortar library, but I am forced to pay taxes so that the few people who do can do so free of charge. If other people would stop going to libraries, our taxes would be a lot lower.

I like your library example and I agree with you 100%. The difference is that everyone can go to the library.

In my view as long as riders that don't wear helmets pay more for insurance I have no issues with it.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by lgk

it will always effect you as long as the government is involved...
so in order to accomplish what you want, the government need to get out of paying for medical expenses.

that alone would change the game immensely.

You can make big sweeping changes to insurance, to the government, to taxes that affect all three hundred million plus people in the US or....

Make people wear a helmet when they ride.



or...

Make people that don't wear a helmet pay higher insurance premiums..

[csmith12]

Sigh... more useless laws.

[xaple]

I personally do not like it. Why am I forced to ride around with a gimmicky looking plate that points out my age?

I don't mind or care what other says, and people do chuckle at it, trust me on this one. But why should I be forced to have a signifying mark on me but the ****er I saw on 95 swerving lanes falling asleep that looked 80+ years old doesn't. Or the woman who is too short to see over the steering wheel doesn't, or the guy who has had 2 DUI's doesn't, or the guy with a suspended license doesn't.

It just seems like there is a lot more scarier things in Florida than someone who is under 21.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Panda

You can make big sweeping changes to insurance, to the government, to taxes that affect all three hundred million plus people in the US or....

Make people wear a helmet when they ride.
or...
Make people that don't wear a helmet pay higher insurance premiums..

there are many issues in increasing the costs only for helmet less riders.
also the helmetless rider won't openly admit to riding without a helmet if it costs him more.

so the only way to enforce a increase is with an additional deductible. when an accident occurs without a helmet. which is not very effective in offsetting costs. since most helmetless riders actually go for a long while before getting injured.

otherwise to be "fair" the increase goes across the board.

if the government got out of paying for medical, then the helmetless rider rates go up, since the insurance co. directly incurs more risk. also you pay less in taxes.

[Trubin]

Is there something wrong with being selfish?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Trubin

Is there something wrong with being selfish?

not at all

if anything expecting people to be selfless 1even 80% of the time is unrealistic.

[ChickenRun]

Originally Posted by xaple

I personally do not like it. Why am I forced to ride around with a gimmicky looking plate that points out my age?

I don't mind or care what other says, and people do chuckle at it, trust me on this one. But why should I be forced to have a signifying mark on me but the ****er I saw on 95 swerving lanes falling asleep that looked 80+ years old doesn't. Or the woman who is too short to see over the steering wheel doesn't, or the guy who has had 2 DUI's doesn't, or the guy with a suspended license doesn't.

It just seems like there is a lot more scarier things in Florida than someone who is under 21.

^All of that. Especially the last bit.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Panda

Make people that don't wear a helmet pay higher insurance premiums..

How do you sort out the liers when they fill out the paperwork? I don't see that working very well.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by xaple

I personally do not like it. Why am I forced to ride around with a gimmicky looking plate that points out my age?

I don't mind or care what other says, and people do chuckle at it, trust me on this one. But why should I be forced to have a signifying mark on me but the ****er I saw on 95 swerving lanes falling asleep that looked 80+ years old doesn't. Or the woman who is too short to see over the steering wheel doesn't, or the guy who has had 2 DUI's doesn't, or the guy with a suspended license doesn't.

It just seems like there is a lot more scarier things in Florida than someone who is under 21.

i think the govt being your nanny is scarier

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by xaple

I personally do not like it. Why am I forced to ride around with a gimmicky looking plate that points out my age?

I don't mind or care what other says, and people do chuckle at it, trust me on this one. But why should I be forced to have a signifying mark on me but the ****er I saw on 95 swerving lanes falling asleep that looked 80+ years old doesn't. Or the woman who is too short to see over the steering wheel doesn't, or the guy who has had 2 DUI's doesn't, or the guy with a suspended license doesn't.

It just seems like there is a lot more scarier things in Florida than someone who is under 21.

But it does totally make sense to me to have people convicted of DUI's have plates that say "drunk". If they had those plates, we would know to stay clear of them.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by csmith12

How do you sort out the liers when they fill out the paperwork? I don't see that working very well.

Ok, assume that some people will be honest and others will lie.

So if you are in an accident and you are not wearing a helmet your insurance premium immediately increases and your deductible for that accident is multiplied by a factor of x.

Exercise your personal "right" to wear a helmet or not wear a helmet or ride with no pants or lie it doesn't matter to me as long as I don't have to pay for it.

[n4mwd]

Insurance:
I suppose I should point out that in FL only people who ride helmetless have to have insurance. BTW, that's "helmetless" not "helmless". "Helmless" means the bike doesn't have a steering mechanism. Which is pretty dangerous too, but not really relevant here.

Having worked at hospitals I can tell you that you will get only as good of care as you can pay for. If you have no way to pay and don't have insurance, the hospital doesn't get paid by the state. So you will be sent home if you are stable. A hospital is only required to treat you for as long as it takes to get you stable. The term stable generally means that you are breathing, have a pulse, aren't bleeding, are conscious and don't require specialized equipment or drugs. Being pain-free is not part of the definition of stable. Neither is surgery to fix a broken leg. If you have a TBI, no way to pay and you are not conscious, there is a good chance you'll get transferred to hospice to live out the remainder of your days in a morphine induced stupor. Basically, while hospitals do take charity cases, its not required beyond getting the patient stable.

So while there are a few exceptions (ie-older riders on medicare), the vast majority of motorcycle injuries are paid for with private funds - not the taxpayer.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Panda

Ok, assume that some people will be honest and others will lie.

So if you are in an accident and you are not wearing a helmet your insurance premium immediately increases and your deductible for that accident is multiplied by a factor of x.

Exercise your personal "right" to wear a helmet or not wear a helmet or ride with no pants or lie it doesn't matter to me as long as I don't have to pay for it.

you'll end up paying in some way or form no matter what...

[lgk]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Insurance:
I suppose I should point out that in FL only people who ride helmetless have to have insurance. BTW, that's "helmetless" not "helmless". "Helmless" means the bike doesn't have a steering mechanism. Which is pretty dangerous too, but not really relevant here.

sorry for the autocorrected posts i corrected them

[csmith12]

^^^ Helmless vs Helmetless = same difference depending on timing.

[lgk]

the autocorrect was right, lol

i figured D had a dictionary...

[Panda]

Originally Posted by lgk

you'll end up paying in some way or form no matter what...

It's really difficult to follow your line of reasoning. So since people pay for other people anyway it's ok for them to also pay for people who don't wear helmets?

[Whiskey]

This just sticks a target on younger riders backs.

The 'L-Plates' here do the same thing. I carried them for the first 2 weeks until I had the hang of the bike, then borrowed a set the day before my test.

Strangely cagers took many more liberties with my personal space when I was on my way to the test, and even f*cked with me on test than when I wasn't displaying the L plate.

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

This just sticks a target on younger riders backs.

The 'L-Plates' here do the same thing. I carried them for the first 2 weeks until I had the hang of the bike, then borrowed a set the day before my test.

Strangely cagers took many more liberties with my personal space when I was on my way to the test, and even f*cked with me on test than when I wasn't displaying the L plate.

I've always wondered how people would react to me with no L plates, interesting.

I have my full test in a few weeks, should be interesting!

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

I've always wondered how people would react to me with no L plates, interesting.

I have my full test in a few weeks, should be interesting!

It was in Ireland, they're not exactly strict on the L-plates there, I wouldn't ditch them if the local cops are picky.

[JBizzle]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Helmets are a good safety tool, but don't delude yourself into thinking you can't be hurt or killed while wearing one. If you hit your helmet at a speed greater than 15 mph, you're going to have a brain injury. So don't do that.

But reading between the lines, they seem to have stopped you because you had an under 21 tag. If he knew for a fact (assuming he had some kind of radar) that you were doing exactly 6 mph over the limit, then its really unusual for him to stop you at all. In FL, you are allowed 5 mph before they can give you a ticket. And the radar has an error of +/- 1-2 mph. So basically, whether you realized it or not, the cop was picking on you.

He pulled out and turned his lights on as I was approaching him from the front (before seeing the back of my bike with the under 21 tag)

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Panda

It's really difficult to follow your line of reasoning. So since people pay for other people anyway it's ok for them to also pay for people who don't wear helmets?

it might not sound "fair" or "ok", but its the reality...

[Mr.E]

I read only a bit of this. Just thought I'd leave my 2 cents.

Personally, I love the plate. About me? Just turned 21 July 9th and got a plate that no longer reads under 21. But I loved my plate. In all honestly (I'm sure it was all in my head) I felt other drivers kind of backed off a bit and gave me more slack for the fact that my plate did read under 21. I was rarely tailgated. Im note sure if its the recent rain or just an increase of jerks lately but people have been a bit dangerous driving wise since I've switched my plates, but again that's probably all in my head.

I will say this though, to assume the cops will I.D. you as some one who is younger and then specifically try to point you out is extreme. I've been riding since I was 19 and *knocks on wood* have never been pulled over. I think the fact that I wear my jacked boots and helmet kind of makes them more appreciative of the fact that I'm young and show concern about my safety. Honestly, the plates aren't a hindrance at all.

If someone stops riding with you because you're under 21, then why would you want to ride with them in the first place? I've met a few great guys from this forum that never had a problem knowing I was under 21 and we rode hard a few times. So long as you have at least MTGATT and don't drive like a squid, you age should never play a factor in their opinions and much like my "people dont tailgate me as much" idea, it's probably all in your head.

If you're ever in Orlando, shoot me a message. I'd be willing go for a ride. Even if you're under 21

Edit: Just wanted to add some personal experiences with cops. I've passed plenty of cops and never ever ever in the history of everdom have been stopped by being picked on because I was under 21. I've done 10 MPH over keeping up with cops, passing them even and have lucked out. Mind you MTGATT. Sure, hypothetically speaking they could target you, but that'd be the rarest cop around because I've been riding almost 2 years now doing some risky things in front of cops and never had a problem, especially for little things that would cause me to think I was targeted specifically due to my age...

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Mr.E

If you're ever in Orlando, shoot me a message. I'd be willing go for a ride. Even if you're under 21

I'm over 21 and under Orlando. I live in Palm Beach.

I obviously don't have the plate, but I've seen others with them.

[Mr.E]

Ah, Sorry n4mwd, I mixed the original post up with another post by someone else. Lol. They were referring to other riders not knowing how old he was until they saw the plate.

[ai4px]

Originally Posted by This Girl Rides

I live in FL, I personally see nothing wrong with the plate.

I can also say i'm very against the no helmet law,
I feel EVERY person should have to ride in a helmet at the least.

Careful what you ask for... you'll end up with an overly <ahem> assertive and intrusive government.

I wear a helmet and always will.
but....
I'm very much a libertarian.... you should have the freedom to make dumb decisions, but others should not be responsible for you. Case in point is the helmet law. Why do we need helmet laws? Because motorcyclist can get bad head injuries and the insurance companies or the hospital ERs must pay for it. Simple solution:No helmet means your insurance is not responsible for you.

This is not a new concept... Lloyds of London wouldn't insure ships that didn't meet certain specs by the 1600's. There is no need for a law, insurance companies just do it... In Germany you can drive as fast as you want on the autobahn but if you wreck and they can prove you were >120km/h, the insurance co doesn't have to fix your car. The only problem left is that since 1986 hospitals are required to treat people in the ER regardless of if they can pay or not. That law needs fixed.

As for the 21 year old thing... What bothers me about this is are you an adult or not? Can you go to jail for a felony? Can you vote? Must us guys register for selective service? Can you enter into contracts? Can you marry? If you are responsible enough to do all of that, why are people under 21 prohibited from fully exercising their rights as citizens? Why (in FL) are they made to identify themselves to the public via their license tags? Why can't under 21 own a handgun or buy a beer?

The politicians say people under 21's brains aren't fully developed and they will make bad decisions... OK, then don't let them vote and don't hold them responsible for crimes they commit. My point is that you either ARE or you AREN'T responsible for yourself. If they draw the line in the sand at 18, fine, make it 18 for EVERYTHING.

Never mind me... I'm on a rant! HA!

[This Girl Rides]

Originally Posted by ai4px

Careful what you ask for... you'll end up with an overly <ahem> assertive and intrusive government.

I wear a helmet and always will.
but....
I'm very much a libertarian.... you should have the freedom to make dumb decisions, but others should not be responsible for you. Case in point is the helmet law. Why do we need helmet laws? Because motorcyclist can get bad head injuries and the insurance companies or the hospital ERs must pay for it. Simple solution:No helmet means your insurance is not responsible for you.

This is not a new concept... Lloyds of London wouldn't insure ships that didn't meet certain specs by the 1600's. There is no need for a law, insurance companies just do it... In Germany you can drive as fast as you want on the autobahn but if you wreck and they can prove you were >120km/h, the insurance co doesn't have to fix your car. The only problem left is that since 1986 hospitals are required to treat people in the ER regardless of if they can pay or not. That law needs fixed.

As for the 21 year old thing... What bothers me about this is are you an adult or not? Can you go to jail for a felony? Can you vote? Must us guys register for selective service? Can you enter into contracts? Can you marry? If you are responsible enough to do all of that, why are people under 21 prohibited from fully exercising their rights as citizens? Why (in FL) are they made to identify themselves to the public via their license tags? Why can't under 21 own a handgun or buy a beer?

The politicians say people under 21's brains aren't fully developed and they will make bad decisions... OK, then don't let them vote and don't hold them responsible for crimes they commit. My point is that you either ARE or you AREN'T responsible for yourself. If they draw the line in the sand at 18, fine, make it 18 for EVERYTHING.

Never mind me... I'm on a rant! HA!

Wanted to touch base with that point; I have worked in a hospital for 3 years. YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE the amount of accidents we get in who don't have insurance or if they do we still end up eating MOST of the bill.

Drives me up a wall!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ai4px

Because motorcyclist can get bad head injuries and the insurance companies or the hospital ERs must pay for it. Simple solution:No helmet means your insurance is not responsible for you.

Makes perfect sense to me. Rather than a law to enforce seat belts or helmets, maybe have a law that limits how much an insurance company must pay and also forfeit their right to sue the other driver who caused the wreck.

But one thing that is a problem is that sometimes EMT's will remove a biker's helmet at the crash scene and it goes to the wrecker yard with the bike rather than to the hospital with the biker. Then the biker gets blamed for causing his own injuries for not wearing a helmet when in fact he was.

I think everyone should wear a helmet (or a seat belt in a car), but I'm absolutely opposed to personal safety mandates. That's just government with its thumb up your...

The politicians say people under 21's brains aren't fully developed and they will make bad decisions... OK, then don't let them vote and don't hold them responsible for crimes they commit. My point is that you either ARE or you AREN'T responsible for yourself. If they draw the line in the sand at 18, fine, make it 18 for EVERYTHING.

Again, another good point. Maybe make it 19 for everything.

Originally Posted by This Girl Rides

Wanted to touch base with that point; I have worked in a hospital for 3 years. YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE the amount of accidents we get in who don't have insurance or if they do we still end up eating MOST of the bill.

What kind of accidents? With car accidents, even if they don't have health insurance, the hospital eventually gets paid from the car insurance people. This can take years sometimes, and that isn't fair to the hospital, but they do get paid eventually. All cars are required to have no-fault insurance.

In Florida, because of the law, a biker who rides WITH a helmet does not have to have insurance at all, so ironically, the helmeted riders are more of a burden to the hospitals.

[This Girl Rides]

I was speaking of bike, and that being said I can also vouch that MOST non helmet wearing cyclist that come in STILL don't have insurance *eye roll*

[ai4px]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

What kind of accidents? With car accidents, even if they don't have health insurance, the hospital eventually gets paid from the car insurance people. This can take years sometimes, and that isn't fair to the hospital, but they do get paid eventually. All cars are required to have no-fault insurance.

<cough> <cough> Yes, requiring vehicles to have insurance stops the problem.... that's why we have so many uninsured cars on the roads in SC. Honestly, it's epidemic. My UNinsured motorist coverage is like 1.5x as much as my liability and UNDERinsured motorist coverages combined. This point really irks me b/c the State of SC is failing to do it's job. They are out writing speeding tickets when they could be using the same resources to pull over people with expired tags and check their insurance. Better still, the law says the insurance company must inform the state when you terminate your policy. The state could very easily send a cop to your house to get the tag off your car, but they don't. They prefer to simply fine you when you eventually get your tags renewed and make you get SR22. That's all well and good but it doesn't solve the problem of people driving w/o liability insurance and hitting me today.

Matter of fact, today on my way to work, a woman in a burgundy SUV make a left turn from a side street into my lane. 1/2 way out, she hesitated when she saw me, but continued anyway. No tags. No regard for others. This is why I ride with a camera on my helmet. If she'd have hit me, at least my wife would know what happened.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by ai4px

As for the 21 year old thing... What bothers me about this is are you an adult or not? Can you go to jail for a felony? Can you vote? Must us guys register for selective service? Can you enter into contracts? Can you marry? If you are responsible enough to do all of that, why are people under 21 prohibited from fully exercising their rights as citizens? Why (in FL) are they made to identify themselves to the public via their license tags? Why can't under 21 own a handgun or buy a beer?

The politicians say people under 21's brains aren't fully developed and they will make bad decisions... OK, then don't let them vote and don't hold them responsible for crimes they commit. My point is that you either ARE or you AREN'T responsible for yourself. If they draw the line in the sand at 18, fine, make it 18 for EVERYTHING.

Not so sure on the hospital thing. I've read both sides of the argument and am not sure where I stand.

But the 18 idea I like. I'm 20. I'm in that middle ground. Either call me an adult or call me a kid. None of this halfway business. I own a vehicle, I pay insurance, I have school loans, I vote, and I have a job. Why can't I buy a beer to enjoy at the end of the day?

[lgk]

imo, you should be able to drink at 18.

[n4mwd]

That's true about a lot of folks not having insurance. But in many cases, the fault goes with the car and the biker can collect whatever there is there. That gets passed on to the hospital. Also, if the insurances are still not adequate, then you can go after the car's owner personally and driver too if different. They can have their wages garnished in many cases.

As far as the 18 and drinking thing, I would say that the kids that will have a problem with it at 21 are usually already having problems with it right now. That type of kid doesn't really mature that much in 3 years. In fact, a friend of mine barely touched anything with alcohol before 21 because it was hard to get. Then when he hit 21, he started drinking a lot and hasn't stopped yet. Its definitely messed him up as beer is the center of his life now. He lost all his friends. Before he started drinking, he was an eagle scout with the boy scouts.

Anyhow, the point is that some people are simply destined to have alcohol mess up their lives and it doesn't matter what the legal drinking age is. ALSO, if they don't already, the high schools should be teaching alcohol responsibility and how it relates to driving. At least that will help prevent accidental drunk driving.

[Falcor]

I too have been pulled over a a couple times but never for my plate. I have one of these stupid LOOK AT ME I'M UNDER 21 plates. I've never been singled out for it or anything, just a few people have asked why it says it though because they were curious and I gave them the same assumption that it was linked to the helmet law.

Just one more year and I can get a new plate .