Quick turn drill?

[adouglas]

@csmith12, @Misti...

I've seen the "quick turn drill" referenced a few times, but am not exactly clear on what it is.

Could either of you walk me through it? What should I be looking for to tell if I'm doing it right?

Thanks...

[csmith12]

The quick turn drill is deceptively simple but is documented in the TOTWII video starting about 1h 3m in, just after the 11 things affected by your turn in point. Also, found in the TOTWII book starting at chapter 15.

First some fundamentals... that you mostly have down already, but for completeness.

Prerequisites:
Relaxed on the bars
Forearms parallel with the plane of rotation of the bars
Only push forward on the bar, any effort put into a non-forward push is less effective
Firm understanding that to go left you push the left bar, to go right you push the right bar (ie counter steering)

Getting it done

Execution:
Pick a corner, slower corners work better than fast sweepers. Note your turn in point, entry speed, braking marker and apex.
First validate your line through the corner via throttle control #1 (adjust line until rule #1 is followed)
Next lap on the same corner with the same turn point, entry speed and line, push harder on the bar to turn the bike faster (stop pushing when your bike is online, pointed toward your apex)
Note differences in throttle control and timing of inputs
Note the difference in how quickly you got your bike on line

Judging your performance:
Did you hit your apex?
Did you run wide?
Was your throttle control still good?
Did you have to make any other steering corrections?
Did you oversteer? No? Congrats! You just realized that you didn't need as much lean angle.

Further judgment:
The very first thing you should notice is you're able to get back to the throttle sooner
The very next thing you should notice is the amount of time the bike is in an “unstable” state is shortened (ie replacing negative feedback with the positive feedback of stability or more simply stated as “the rider giving the bike what it needs” )
Next you should notice, the lessened sense of urgency or guesswork that the bike will make it through the corner or not

Other benefits:
Faster exit and harder exit drive
Lean angle required is less
The amount of time spent leaned over is less
You have more extra space on the outside of the turn (also very handy on the street)
Turning faster gives you more options on your lines
Turning faster enables better throttle control, which equals better traction
Dodging potholes or other road debris

The first time:
Don’t be surprised if the first few sessions trying to quick turn is all chopped up and not very smooth, that's normal . After some time, practice and you start to feel the positive effects, start working on your pivot steering. It will lock you onto the bike better and give you a push off point to push the bar even harder. Some time later... you might feel the urge to move your turn in point based on the improved steering skills. Maybe even the brake marker too. Yep, steering is that important. But be mindful to watch for common SR's like, pausing or rolling out of the throttle, steering corrections and don't forget to pay attention to your vision as best you can. When quick turning, visual sr's are the most subtle from my experience.

The million dollar question, So now that you have netted yourself some extra time on many corners around the track, what do you do with it? Should you move your turn in point first or is there something else you can do to better use the time?

Bonus question: If you are having serious trouble quick flicking the bike over, what could be the problem?

Bonus question #2: When can't you quick turn?

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

(stop pushing when your bike is online, pointed toward your apex)

Aha.

Hear that?

It's the sound of the penny dropping.

I never quite figured out when to stop the input. I think I've been steering until the bike is turning enough to get me through the corner, but no more. Hence lazy steering and that "lost" feeling.

This gives me a specific target.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The million dollar question, So now that you have netted yourself some extra time on many corners around the track, what do you do with it? Should you move your turn in point first or is there something else you can do to better use the time?

Bonus question: If you are having serious trouble quick flicking the bike over, what could be the problem?

Bonus question #2: When can't you quick turn?

Answer 1: I want to say roll on sooner, to gain exit speed. But if you're tipping in too early as you would with lazy steering, even with a quick turn you can't really hit it because you're spending too much time leaned over. So the correct answer is likely to tip in later so you can get on the throttle sooner.

Answer 2: Lack of intestinal fortitude.

Answer 3: When you're blasting down the front straight at 130 mph.

Also, any time you don't have enough traction points in hand to load the tire without losing it, e.g. under hard braking, under reduced traction (wet) conditions, etc.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Answer 1: I want to say roll on sooner, to gain exit speed. But if you're tipping in too early as you would with lazy steering, even with a quick turn you can't really hit it because you're spending too much time leaned over. So the correct answer is likely to tip in later so you can get on the throttle sooner.

Answer 2: Lack of intestinal fortitude.

Answer 3: When you're blasting down the front straight at 130 mph.

Also, any time you don't have enough traction points in hand to load the tire without losing it, e.g. under hard braking, under reduced traction (wet) conditions, etc.

Great discussion and Chris has given an outstanding explanation of the Quick turn.

I want to add just a few things. 1. Quick turn is THE thing that will really help you with your turn entry speed. there is no way you can enter a corner faster if you don't have the confidence that you can get it turned in time.

2. In regards to Chris's bonus question: if you are having trouble quick flicking the bike what could be the problem.....you say Lack of Intestinal fortitude... hahahah. What would give you intestinal fortitude...or what would give you confidence to flick it over? Or what sort of thing TELLS you how much or how hard you need to push on the bars?

Misti

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

Quick turn is THE thing that will really help you with your turn entry speed. there is no way you can enter a corner faster if you don't have the confidence that you can get it turned in time.

That is where I was trying to get the discussion to go with the "million dollar question" but my wording could have been a bit better I guess.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Misti

2. In regards to Chris's bonus question: if you are having trouble quick flicking the bike what could be the problem.....you say Lack of Intestinal fortitude... hahahah. What would give you intestinal fortitude...or what would give you confidence to flick it over? Or what sort of thing TELLS you how much or how hard you need to push on the bars?

Misti

That right there is where I get stuck. It goes back to finding the limit.

When we are infants, we find limits by falling down, getting hurt, etc. We learn what to avoid the hard way.

The cost of that approach is too high when riding a motorcycle.

So it becomes trial and error, right? It even says this in the TOTW video regarding where to turn.

If you go out too far on exit, you're not turning quick enough. But that doesn't give you CONFIDENCE that you can push harder, it just tells you that you're not pushing hard enough.

If you have room to spare, you're pushing hard enough and can go faster, but likewise that doesn't give you confidence in the first place.

What I'm doing is looking at photos of myself compared to others in the same turn to plant the idea that I've got room to spare in terms of lean, and therefore can turn harder.... Visualization is important. It's not everything, though, so any additional tips would be greatly appreciated.

Example: Me in the bowl at NYST:



Same corner... @nickjpass



Another example... I felt really good this day, but I can do SOOO much more. The fast guys are dragging knee here.

[csmith12]

Hey Andrew, remember me telling you (or maybe you read my post a long time ago) about just out of the blue one day I got faster. No real smoking gun, no one specific skill I was working on at the time, it just kinda happened... No "ah ha" moment for me and It took me 2+yrs to figure out why.

We all have a sense of speed, grip, lean, surface and line that we can make it through a corner, let's call em "concerns". These are the raw materials that let us where to turn, know how hard to push the bar, how hard to brake, how far to lean, ect... You also own that same mix of concerns that makes you up as an individual rider. Say you have completed 20 laps around a track. You have worked out the turn points, entry speeds, lines and so on but you also mostly address your concerns as well. Now you're in the paddock with a shiny bike and a smile. And, on the 21st, lap do you expect it to be any different than the 20 before? You shouldn't... Your next lap should much the same as all the others before it when considering those concerns. Just do what you have been doing and you should expect the same result. This is the foundation of confidence in your own skills that you can build on.

But here is the problem, at some point... doing the same thing isn't good enough anymore, you're gunna have to try something different. It's a risk yes, but a controlled risk that I wouldn't put 100% in the same column as trial and error, chance or luck. That there is your baseline for confidence on lap 21 to try something new. Try just one small thing that is new. Yes, you can visualize it with pics, vid or witnessing others go faster, lean more and so on, but if you can't find the confidence within yourself, it's much harder. Just one small thing, then the small things start adding up to big things.



Finally coming to grip with my version of those concerns is how I became a faster rider. One little thing at a time, one sr at a time and one concern at a time. It all clicked together somewhere around my 20th or so track day. In hindsight and a perfect world, I would have attended CSS much sooner to learn how to address them systematically. Their classroom and on track drills have an answer for each of them. And the kicker is, even if you signed up for all 4 levels of the CSS school, at some point... they will ask you to do something "different".

[adouglas]

Yeah... would love to do CSS but don't have the scratch for it at this time. Maybe someday....

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

That right there is where I get stuck. It goes back to finding the limit.

When we are infants, we find limits by falling down, getting hurt, etc. We learn what to avoid the hard way.

The cost of that approach is too high when riding a motorcycle.......

So far, I have not found that limit and I can flick my Ninja very quickly on common street surface and with less than super-gripping front tire.

I would like to refer you to this old thread, where the principles and examples of quick flick were shown and discussed:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205642

In my limited experience, I am confident that, if my entry speed and brake-throttle transition are adequate for a specific corner, it is impossible, in normal conditions (sand/mud/Diesel-free dry pavement under properly pressurized tire) to break the front contact patch loose by quick flicking the bike.

In all my years of riding, I forced the front patch beyond its traction limit only once: while simultaneously trying to countersteer hard and accelerating much, trying to escape of a bad traffic situation.
I still did not crash, just felt the normal resistance of the handlebar suddenly disappear, followed by a self-adjusting shake of the frame.

The lateral forces on the front contact patch due to cornering are stronger (same as rider+bike weight, when at 45-degree lean) than the force that your arms put on it to change direction (just a few degrees of handlebar rotation) by using the quick flick technique.
The mass of the rotating front tire (gyroscopic resistance) and the self-centering force of the steering trial are natural limiters to excessive input.
Those act exactly like the damping part of a shock absorber.

If we could force the bike to flick (rotate) too quick, the tire-asphalt contact would be momentarily lost.
That would be because the bike rotates around its center of mass, which tends to remain at the same height.
Due to gravity acceleration, that center of mass will then fall, making the front tire land.

The below pictures have been copied from Tony Foale's book "Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design".

We are not infants any more, but we can find limits (rather mental in this case) by methodical and progressive approach.
Starting with slow flicks, we can gain confidence by experimenting with increasing (and still safe) rates of pushing the bike to lean.

Rubber and clean-dry asphalt love keeping a grip as much as possible.
Again, in my experience, when traction is lost in such conditions, both surfaces tend to quickly regain grip, rather than experiencing a catastrophic slip/skid.

[Sirref]

Woah there is a boatload of quality content in here time to get reading


my $0.02 off the bat, the quick turn is about pushing your limit of how quickly you reach your maximum lean slightly each lap. It is a process but one that is very thoroughly rewarding when you start really throwing the bike down and carving the corners, there's little more satisfying when it comes to riding techniques than being able to turn on a dime.

The approach in it's simplest form is to treat the inside bar like you were throwing a jab in a boxing match. It is a very quick, efficient, and controlled motion that results in the bike "falling" into place. This sensation can feel very off at first but once you've done it a few times and realize that it means you don't need to add lean later on it becomes so much more comfortable so much quicker. Adding lean mid corner when you want to be on the gas is all kinds of bad in respect to safety and lap times (it can be done safely without throttle but still isn't ideal)



I do have one issue with it @csmith12 @Misti it is that I find trailbraking and quick turn to be insanely difficult to combine due to the sheer speed at which you can add lean (particularly on the smaller bikes) I've solved this for a lot of corners by simply braking less and leaning more but I feel that is not always the ideal solution especially since lean is a finite resource

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

my $0.02 off the bat, the quick turn is about pushing your limit of how quickly you reach your maximum lean slightly each lap.

I do have one issue with it @csmith12 @Misti it is that I find trailbraking and quick turn to be insanely difficult to combine due to the sheer speed at which you can add lean (particularly on the smaller bikes) I've solved this for a lot of corners by simply braking less and leaning more but I feel that is not always the ideal solution especially since lean is a finite resource

See those two comments? The don't go together respectively to perform each at 100% effectiveness if you also consider maximum lean angle and max entry speed. Either you quick flick at 100% or trail at 100%. To do them both will make each suffer to some extent. While possible to ride it out, it isn't really helping your lap time. If your entry speed is so high that you when you quick flick to max lean angle, you really, really want to be back on the throttle vs still on the brakes. At those lean angles the front patch is pretty easy to wash out with the smallest of mistake or input that further unsettles the bike.

EDIT: I just remembered this nugget from the TOTWII movie.
"Can you... quick flick with a handful of front brake?" - K. Code
"NO!!!!" - Class of students

If someone is really breathing down your neck, then take the low line and trail where it makes sense so the racer don't get under you on the inside, just remember you will loose some of your quick flick. If you're out reeling someone in, take the quick flick and maximize time on the throttle and a get all the benefits of the line being straightened. Do you remember the answer to this fundamental question? Riddle me this... what is faster? The rate at which brakes can take away speed or is it... the rate that the throttle can add speed? Ever noticed that much of the time when battling with someone blending quick turn with trail braking it slows you both down? Do you know why now?

When I took CSS level 1 at VIR, this is the area that my coach Johnny and I spent the most time. I took turn 4 at such a high entry speed that I couldn't flick it in fast enough to make my line and exit point. I simply ran out of skill and my turn in point was too deep . He considered it charging the corner rightly so , even though I had no real SR's firing (yes he asked ). This is where he told me to move my turn in point back off the corner about a bike length and turn it a bit slower (yes he said slower) this gave me a smoother approach and more time to set my entry speed while NOT at max lean since I trailed the corner a bit. It felt better yes, but still not quite what I wanted out of the linked corners. Next session, he had me move my turn in point back to the "X" (deeper), remove the trail braking (setting entry speed before turn in) and just quick flick it in. Guess what... 0 difference in lap time overall, but I could finally make my line and set up for turn 5 much easier. Also... it gave me time to do a pickup on the exit, rail the bike into turn 5 with a hip flick + another quick turn and faster exit. But most importantly, there was a major difference in the overall safety and confidence in my riding on a couple of corners that I was pushing the limits on. He didn't tell me the answer... he lead me to it and and felt it on my own.

Knowing why you didn't crash, is better than trying to figure out why you laid it down. - csmith

EDIT: I left CSS that day with the reinforced knowledge of "don't give up 300ft corner exit speed to gain 50ft of corner entry speed."

[csmith12]

Now... Since Mr. Fist is the OP, imma pick on him for a bit. Sorry and I mean no disrespect, you know I love ya.

Check out this vid.

Link to original page on YouTube.

You can clearly see EVERY ONE of the advantages of quick turning when you compare my lines with Andrews. It's never a competition, but he misses many apexes and runs wide quite a bit "mainly" due to a slow steering rate. If I were a betting man, I would bet he already knows this and the reason this thread even exists in the first place. And honestly, the only reason I am posting this video is because, he has to add lean + throttle post apex to make is lines. He knows that is a bad thing and he clearly doesn't want to crash rightly so... And I don't want to see my friend hurt in any way.

@adouglas taking the time to stop and review how he turns the bike is going to prevent a crash vs adding more entry speed and is a credit to his riding career.

[adouglas]

Does that suit make my butt look fat?

Geez, I need to lose some weight. @Sirref, when I was your age I was as skinny as you....

Thanks for posting up, chris. I see dots before me. Now to connect them....

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

See those two comments? The don't go together respectively to perform each at 100% effectiveness if you also consider maximum lean angle and max entry speed. Either you quick flick at 100% or trail at 100%. To do them both will make each suffer to some extent. While possible to ride it out, it isn't really helping your lap time. If your entry speed is so high that you when you quick flick to max lean angle, you really, really want to be back on the throttle vs still on the brakes. At those lean angles the front patch is pretty easy to wash out with the smallest of mistake or input that further unsettles the bike.

EDIT: I left CSS that day with the reinforced knowledge of "don't give up 300ft corner exit speed to gain 50ft of corner entry speed."

Makes sense to me and describes what I've been feeling from the bike for the most part in those situations. It's a good while before the season starts up again so I have some time to think about my approaches to different corners a bit more by then and single out inefficiencies like that

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by adouglas

That right there is where I get stuck. It goes back to finding the limit.

When we are infants, we find limits by falling down, getting hurt, etc. We learn what to avoid the hard way.

The cost of that approach is too high when riding a motorcycle.

So it becomes trial and error, right? It even says this in the TOTW video regarding where to turn.

If you go out too far on exit, you're not turning quick enough. But that doesn't give you CONFIDENCE that you can push harder, it just tells you that you're not pushing hard enough.

If you have room to spare, you're pushing hard enough and can go faster, but likewise that doesn't give you confidence in the first place.

What I'm doing is looking at photos of myself compared to others in the same turn to plant the idea that I've got room to spare in terms of lean, and therefore can turn harder.... Visualization is important. It's not everything, though, so any additional tips would be greatly appreciated.

Example: Me in the bowl at NYST:



Same corner... @nickjpass



Another example... I felt really good this day, but I can do SOOO much more. The fast guys are dragging knee here.

To be fair that wasn't my first time there

also, turn off the scared thing. haha if possible. you become more relaxed!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

That right there is where I get stuck. It goes back to finding the limit.

When we are infants, we find limits by falling down, getting hurt, etc. We learn what to avoid the hard way.

The cost of that approach is too high when riding a motorcycle.

So it becomes trial and error, right? It even says this in the TOTW video regarding where to turn.

If you go out too far on exit, you're not turning quick enough. But that doesn't give you CONFIDENCE that you can push harder, it just tells you that you're not pushing hard enough.

If you have room to spare, you're pushing hard enough and can go faster, but likewise that doesn't give you confidence in the first place.

What I'm doing is looking at photos of myself compared to others in the same turn to plant the idea that I've got room to spare in terms of lean, and therefore can turn harder.... Visualization is important. It's not everything, though, so any additional tips would be greatly appreciated.

So what if you KNEW exactly where you wanted the bike to be at the apex and were able to spot that exact point BEFORE you actually turned the bike? Would you be able to turn the bike quicker? would that give your hand the information it needed to be able to press on the bar hard enough to get you there?

You mention visualization at the very end of your comment above. If you know where you want to be, exactly, would you feel more confident, or develop more intestinal fortitude to be able to quick turn the bike to get you there?

Or I'll ask it in a different way. If you don't know where you want to be mid corner how confident are you going to be in trying to quick turn the bike over and get your knee down?

[adouglas]

Presactly. That's why Chris's bit about turning until your bike is on line and pointed at the apex was an "a-ha" moment. It got me thinking about that target point.

I had been thinking about turn-in, then looking for the apex and exit, but not trying to hit a specific point on the pavement at the apex. Dumb, right? I should have known that all along.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Dumb, right? I should have known that all along.

Not dumb really. If you google the CSS lvl 1 school classes, and review the order of the material is presented. It's kinda odd for some riders when it comes to quick turn. I am sure there is a great reason for the order they present material, but from what I have read... many riders have a harder time or don't really feel the full effects of the quick turn set in until they learn to keep their vision one step ahead of their steering inputs. This is where the the two step drill comes in. It gives you information about the corner (turn in point & apex) before you're in the middle of it. ie you will have a better understanding of how hard you need to steer, lean, and so on... before you even reach your turn in point. imho... the two step drill is the absolute best drill they teach. In fact... it might work so well for you, that you naturally start turning faster without even specifically trying too.

More about markers...
Your turn in point & and apex markers should get smaller as your skill at picking them out increases in relation to your steering skills. For example, my markers started very vague, about the size of a garbage can lid. With much dedicated practice, now I have a few markers that are the size of the quarter. Now... if I could only hit them every single lap.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Presactly. That's why Chris's bit about turning until your bike is on line and pointed at the apex was an "a-ha" moment. It got me thinking about that target point.

I had been thinking about turn-in, then looking for the apex and exit, but not trying to hit a specific point on the pavement at the apex. Dumb, right? I should have known that all along.

What if you think about it in terms of looking to the APEX BEFORE you actually get to your turn in point and using that apex point as an indicator for how hard and when to turn the bike?

[SLOWn60]

Chris & Misti;

I have two Quick turn SR's.

One is what I call a "Good Sportsman" Race/Trackday SR. So often when getting near a turn in point there is surrounding traffic moving at various relative speeds. I find it safer to "go with the flow" at turn in and make adjustments after turn in rather than turn in hard and risk collisions or unsettling other riders whether I have the wheel or not. The higher the skills of the surrounding riders; the less of a problem but it's not an unusual situation. I'm not too concerned, if at all, of reducing this SR. I mention it only as a personal observation of my riding on the track. Interestingly; it was a non-issue in Supermoto as I ride mostly GP style and found I would easily move around and pass those backing it in! However; the dirt section levelled the playing field!

The other SR is the timing to release the push on the bar to hit my lean angle but not lowside! It's my "Chicken" SR! I'm not afraid to push the bar hard but I'm very reticent about releasing pressure on the bar a split moment too late! Inevitably; I make a slight, minor adjustment to my line as my Chicken SR has not allowed me to get to the full lean angle I intended. It also strikes me as counter to the "Smooth" mantra! There is a momentary braking force on the rear tire and a loading of the front end during the transition from vertical to lean angle: the edge of the tire must rotate faster than the centre of the tire to maintain an equal speed. Does one begin roll on of the throttle at initiation of turn in? The real question of this paragraph though is; your thoughts on releasing the bar?

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

The real question of this paragraph though is; your thoughts on releasing the bar?

Originally Posted by csmith12

(stop pushing when your bike is online, pointed toward your apex)

Right?

The "chicken" SR describes me too. Too timid to throw it down, and the feeling of falling/too much lean is a huge trigger for me. Chris's parenthetical comment got me to think about it differently...

[csmith12]

@SLOWn60

1st Question: I am going to answer with another question. Flip your thinking, and use your skill of prediction. For a track day... how can you prevent the problem in the first place? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure ya know. Nothing wrong with a bit of courteous riding for track days. Going further would be to google the "change lines" drill. A good rider has many line selections per corner. Not just one good one that "goes with the flow". For a race day... as long as your sr's aren't firing.. what is the problem again? If you own the line, then tip in as you see fit, if you don't own the line, then your just gunna have to make an adjustment on the fly. Best decide before tip in so you know what line you're gunna take. Again, this is where knowing alternate lines will be a big help. How do you know you found a good line?

Also.. Turning has 2 rules;
1. Get it done as quickly as possible
2. Only one steering input per corner

How does the 2nd rule of turning relate to your mid corner adjustments after tip in?

2nd Question: Go back and reread my "concerns" comment in post #8, then read #19 & #20 again. Your question is answered if you put them together a la (your vision + sense of speed lets you know with what amount of urgency to put inputs into the bike). As you approach a corner, it "concerns" you how hard to push the bar to reach the lean you need. What tells you that? Seeing your apex marker ahead of time tells you. Once you reach the turn marker, your gunna have to commit or nah. Per your comment, it sounds like you don't commit 100% (much like Mr. Fist) as sr's 3 and 6 take hold, which most likely causes 7 too To answer your question bluntly, it just takes practice to time the release of pressure when you use your peripheral vision sees that the bike is inline with what your looking at (apex marker). I mean really... there is not magic here and it's the human skill of it. EVERYONE misses markers from time to time. The secret is to know when to react to it or not (sr's 1, 2, 4, 5 & 6). Much of the time, being off by a few inches to a foot, is no big deal. If your turn was quick enough, you will have the extra track on the outside of the turn to use as needed. If you will still 98% make your line through the corner, is there any benefit to making a steering correction? Are there any added risks to making the steering correction?

There is also another method of tightening your line mid corner that doesn't require using the bars to steer and will not make you break throttle control rule #1, but it's a more advanced topic that we can come back to later.

All 7 sr's for your reference, because not turning fast enough can wreak so much havoc, it might trigger them all.
#1 Rolling off the throttle
#2 Tighten on the bars
#3 Narrowed and/or frantically hunting field of view
#4 Fixed attention (target fixation)
#5 Steering in the direction of fixed attention
#6 No Steering, Frozen
#7 Braking errors, over/under braking

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Right?

Yep

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

..........Does one begin roll on of the throttle at initiation of turn in?......

Better on the gas than on the brakes, just during the smooth transition between both.

The quick turn can still be smooth: from zero angular speed (bike is vertical), to max angular speed (bike is leaned half of final angle), to zero angular speed (at final lean angle that corresponds with speed and radius of the rest of the turn).

It is an exercise of timing and controlled forces, exactly like the a pitcher trows a fastball, as hard as he can but still with precise direction.
It is a sequence of stages that follow each other at a fast rate but with smooth transitions.

It takes practice and more practice to master that technique.
If you believe that you can, you will be able to achieve it eventually.
Nothing wrong with a few first attempts that are timid and clumsy.

Concentrate in the precision of the stopping angle first, then work on the smoothness of the inputs, then work on increasing the speed of the angular speed.

You should not be afraid of falling, because the bike and you are "falling" into a balanced position or angle: just like a coin "finds" the right lean angle to roll describing a circle.

Imagine that somebody is pushing your leaned body to reach a vertical balanced position: how precise his push has to be?
You will be adopting a natural balanced position (vertical) and a few degrees more or less vertical can be easily corrected by the muscles of your feet: you will not fall because the pushing force was not perfectly precise.
At the final lean angle both, the bike and the coin, are as naturally balanced as your body is when standing straight up.

The beauty of the quick flick is that the bike is turning or cornering a substantial amount of degrees (of the curve) while you are forcing it from a vertical balance to a leaned balance.
In order for the bike to turn or corner the same amount of degrees in a leaned attitude, much more distance and time is necessary, even more if preceded by a lazy turn in.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Better on the gas than on the brakes, just during the smooth transition between both.

If I correctly understand your response, actually... when riding above street paces where the margin of error is much lower, when quick turning you want the front of the bike to be loaded, and most of that loading is done via the brakes. So much so, that some of the pics I have posted in other threads that the bike has a semi squashed from tire. To turn while on the throttle feels questionable to some extent. On a slow turn it feels like crap, on a high speed sweeper maybe not so much. I will be blunt honest with you here. There is a hole in my knowledge and experience about "adding lean + throttle" on high speed turns, but the hole does not exist on lower speed turns. Maybe Misti can shed more light in this area. My best guess is it is about you still have grip while not at max lean as riders don't normally take sweepers at knee dragging speed. But funny thing is... I am about to ride Jennings GP, turn 2 is a 100mph sweeper, turned in at WOT to a knee dragging lean angle, but that doesn't mean max lean.

Back to turning...
While you don't want to initiate the turn with a big ol handful of front brake, you can certainly be trailing off at the turn in point. The CSS answer to the question "does one begin roll on of the throttle at initiation of turn in?" is NO, begin your throttle roll after the steering is complete. The act of steering the bike is the only time where bike instability is a good thing.

It's obvious if you can answer this question, if your greedy with the throttle mid corner, what happens to your line? So if you turn while on the throttle what are you asking the bike to do?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

To turn while on the throttle feels questionable to some extent. On a slow turn it feels like crap, on a high speed sweeper maybe not so much. I will be blunt honest with you here. There is a hole in my knowledge and experience about "adding lean + throttle" on high speed turns, but the hole does not exist on lower speed turns. Maybe Misti can shed more light in this area.

Back to turning...
While you don't want to initiate the turn with a big ol handful of front brake, you can certainly be trailing off at the turn in point. The CSS answer to the question "does one begin roll on of the throttle at initiation of turn in?" is NO, begin your throttle roll after the steering is complete. The act of steering the bike is the only time where bike instability is a good thing.

It's obvious if you can answer this question, if your greedy with the throttle mid corner, what happens to your line? So if you turn while on the throttle what are you asking the bike to do?

Ok, so turning and quick turning. 1. You don't want to initiate the turn with a handful of front brake for sure, but yes you can be trailing off the brakes at the turn in point.

2. The steering rule for CSS is to turn as quickly as possible for a given corner and the throttle control rule is to begin rolling on the gas as soon as possible once the bike is turned.

3. This means that adding lean angle and throttle at the same time is a no-no and one of the most common reasons for crashing.

4. So, for slower turn in's that means that you are off the gas completely and sometimes even trailing off the brakes at turn in.

4. For high speed corners, depending on the kind of turn, you are either stalled on the gas (not completely rolled off, but not rolling on either) at the time of turn in -slight stall then roll on once the bike is turned, or sometimes there is an exception to the throttle control/quick turning rule if the turn is taken at WOT.

So, exception turns where you take them wide open throttle means just that, the throttle is wide open and you turn with it wide open....now, this is where knowing how to get the bike turned quickly and effectively will help because the gyro effect is stronger at a high speed, WOT kind of turn which means the bike will be a lot harder to turn or to get it to change direction.

So, what kinds of things can you do in these WOT kinds of corners to help you get the bike to turn?

Hope that answered your question or clarified some things!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

So, exception turns where you take them wide open throttle means just that, the throttle is wide open and you turn with it wide open....now, this is where knowing how to get the bike turned quickly and effectively will help because the gyro effect is stronger at a high speed, WOT kind of turn which means the bike will be a lot harder to turn or to get it to change direction.

So, what kinds of things can you do in these WOT kinds of corners to help you get the bike to turn?

Hope that answered your question or clarified some things!

It did clarify that I didn't ask the right question or explain the hole in my experience. lol

Without derailing the thread too much, I know that pivot steering, pushing straight forward (not down) on the bars increases efficiency and eases steering inputs, not hanging off too far, as well as keeping elbows tidy and not flared out all help overcome the gyro effects of turning at high speed. Stability = strength, and more strength is what is needed to turn at WOT.

I guess if I really sit down and think about it a bit, I have always known the answers to my high speed corner concerns, it's just not a topic that comes up as often as others. Keeping the sr's at bay while getting a knee down at 120mph is largely addressing my ability to turn harder and fast enough to make my line, visual skills to ensure I am looking at the right things at the right times and my own confidence that I have the allowed for the needed entry/mid corner/exit speed traction so the bike can do what I have asked told it to do. Treating these turns is no different than any other. Work up the skills needed to add the desired speed until the rider or the bike starts to complain about it, then take a step back and figure out why.

CSS has many rules to riding, some rules are HARD and should never be broken, others however.... Let's just say some can be broken, but the when and where parts are not clearly defined in TOTW2 and require the reader to put 2 & 2 together themselves. Which is fine too.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

It did clarify that I didn't ask the right question or explain the hole in my experience. lol

Without derailing the thread too much, I know that pivot steering, pushing straight forward (not down) on the bars increases efficiency and eases steering inputs, not hanging off too far, as well as keeping elbows tidy and not flared out all help overcome the gyro effects of turning at high speed. Stability = strength, and more strength is what is needed to turn at WOT.

I guess if I really sit down and think about it a bit, I have always known the answers to my high speed corner concerns, it's just not a topic that comes up as often as others. Keeping the sr's at bay while getting a knee down at 120mph is largely addressing my ability to turn harder and fast enough to make my line, visual skills to ensure I am looking at the right things at the right times and my own confidence that I have the allowed for the needed entry/mid corner/exit speed traction so the bike can do what I have asked told it to do. Treating these turns is no different than any other. Work up the skills needed to add the desired speed until the rider or the bike starts to complain about it, then take a step back and figure out why.

CSS has many rules to riding, some rules are HARD and should never be broken, others however.... Let's just say some can be broken, but the when and where parts are not clearly defined in TOTW2 and require the reader to put 2 & 2 together themselves. Which is fine too.

As long as I can get you to go through your own riding and analyze areas where you can make improvements or learn more then I'm doing my job You're great at breaking technique down and working on it section by section, and in explaining your process. Fun threads to read and be a part of Keep posting away!