The other blind spot

[Panda]

Good read on making sure you don't mask yourself from oncoming traffic behind other cars.

http://www.msgroup.org/CASESTUDY1.aspx?num=5

[JohnnyBravo]

thanks for the info!

[aeroblade]

No offense but that is a bunch of horseapple... I've been driving and riding for 16 years and I have never hit anyone while making a turn. Why?? Because I check more than just once before I make a turn. And I can tell you the driving scene here is the worst ever, you think you can't see a motorbike tailgating behind a van? Hell, once you diver here you'll see motorcycles and cars pop out of no where all the time! Both the motorcyclist and the rider have to do their part, but as I always say " The smaller your vehicle the more careful, the bigger the vehicle the more responsible ".

Oh, it doesn't really matter whether or not our car is green. Just as it is incorrect to assume that 'green' is the 'bad guy', so, too, is it incorrect to assume that the left-turner is at fault.

Rider errors killed this motorcyclist.

So If I like many others can do it here in one of the world's worst traffic conditions known to man then why on earth is it so friggin impossible for people to do it else where?

It pays to pay more attention while driving!

[Motofool]

Thanks for posting this, Dan.

The last part of the article leads to this:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114372

[Panda]

Originally Posted by aeroblade

No offense but that is a bunch of horseapple... I've been driving and riding for 16 years and I have never hit anyone while making a turn. Why?? Because I check more than just once before I make a turn. And I can tell you the driving scene here is the worst ever, you think you can't see a motorbike tailgating behind a van? Hell, once you diver here you'll see motorcycles and cars pop out of no where all the time! Both the motorcyclist and the rider have to do their part, but as I always say " The smaller your vehicle the more careful, the bigger the vehicle the more responsible ".



So If I like many others can do it here in one of the world's worst traffic conditions known to man then why on earth is it so friggin impossible for people to do it else where?

It pays to pay more attention while driving!

I think you're missing the point. The accident didn't occur because of the driver in the car. The accident occurred because the rider unintentionally masked himself.

So as a rider we already try to stay out of the blind spot that exists behind and to the side of the car. But we should also try to stay out of blind spots or maybe visual shadows is a better term of oncoming traffic when we mask ourselves behind other cars.

It's similar to the videos where a rider is lane splitting in the far right lane between the cars and the curb in stopped traffic. Rider keeps going, doesn't notice a gap in the cars and a cager makes a left into the path of the rider.

Rider error for lane splitting, depending on the state you live in, but also because the rider masked him/herself and the cager didn't see the rider. Not "didn't see" as in, you were in my field of vision but my vision was focused elsewhere but "didn't see" as in it was not physically possible to see because the driver's view was obstructed until it was too late.

I think the another point would be as the rider it's up to you to be responsible for your safety. Being dependent on other drivers or riders to not make that turn, to stay in their lane, to not slam on their brakes, doesn't always work in our favor.

[verboten1]

I was out riding behind my wife yesterday, she's a new rider, and I caught her tailgating. I told her not to do that any more, the biggest reason being that oncoming can't see you, and people on side streets can't see you, even if they are trying!

[aeroblade]

Na I get that and I do agree with you saying the motorcyclist has to do his part if he/she is to stay safe. I was just pointing out the fact that if the rider was positioned exactly as shown in the below pic wouldn't the car have had to turned in too quick in order to hit the motorcyclist? That gap is rather small.



Look at it... Sure he was in the blind spot caused by the A pillar. But still why would you turn in with out confirming everything was clear? Plus they say the biker was doing approximately 40mph at the time of impact and was "Tailgating" is the word they used. If you are to hit a bike on the far side of the road who is 'tailgating' the vehicle in front of him then you'd definitely have to turn in without double checking and quick. The time frame for a biker doing 40mph to remain hidden behind an A-pillar blind spot of a stationary car is very small. He'd have passed them within a second or two as soon as the white car had passed by.

So the MAIN lesson to be learned here is not to turn in too quick and to always confirm your surroundings before you make a move. Same basic principle that is used when crossing a road. You look twice to make sure. If you are stationary then you have more time to react than someone who is in motion. Just because they have it up on a website doesn't make it 100% right. I do not agree that it was purely rider error.

[Panda]

The driver of the green car had an unimpeded view for 1000’. The white car and motorcycle were traveling at 40MPH. This means the driver of the green car observed the white car for 17 seconds. For 17 seconds the motorcycle was not visible behind the white car because it was visually obstructed and tailgating.

Two lessons can be learned here –

1. After observing a car for 17 seconds and 1000’ and not seeing anything. The driver of the car should triple check to ensure that a motorcycle is not illegally tailgating behind a car or…

2. As a motorcyclist we shouldn't tailgate and make it impossible for other drivers to see us.

I'm not sure I agree that the main point of the article is number 1 as you assert.

[csmith12]

I am not even sure why you guys are debating this.

The point of the article is, don't ride in blind spots. The number of blind spots is directly proportional to the number of cars that share the road with you. Sure we hope that everyone does their part but they DON'T. When 2 objects try to occupy the same spot at the same time, there are ALWAY's 2 at fault in some way.

Rule #1 - You alone are responsible for your own safety. No one else, PERIOD.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Panda

.......
2. As a motorcyclist we shouldn't tailgate and make it impossible for other drivers to see us.

This happens frequently in multi-lane roads, even if we are keeping the two-seconds distance (which by the way would be 117 feet for the article of the dumb rider).

Many times I have noted a left turner and a car or truck moving (a little slower) ahead of me and on a lane left of me have been blocking our line of view for the whole distance until reaching the intersection.

In those cases, I slow down if I can in order to let the obstruction to move ahead.
In other cases, it is more practical just to accelerate hard and use that vehicle as a shield against the left turner.

When we are the left turners, we should never turn too quick after the "white van" of the article, being hidden little trailers the main danger for us.

[aeroblade]

Not in a noticeable way till the end no, but still they emphasized it that it was not their fault there by the blame automatically falls on the rider. The rider was indeed wrong to tailgate, but had the driver double checked before making the turn, the accident could have been avoided.

The rider part of me just couldn't let this evil go unchecked!!!

On the plus side, your topic now has TWO lessons to impart onto your fellow riders.

[aeroblade]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I am not even sure why you guys are debating this.

Its not a debate, just discussing about something that should have been included. This is how you learn.

Rule #1 - You alone are responsible for your own safety. No one else, PERIOD.

So if I get run over from behind by a drunk driver while at a red light... its my fault?

Originally Posted by Motofool

This happens frequently in multi-lane roads, even if we are keeping the two-seconds distance (which by the way would be 117 feet for the article of the dumb rider).

Many times I have noted a left turner and a car or truck moving (a little slower) ahead of me and on a lane left of me have been blocking our line of view for the whole distance until reaching the intersection.

In those cases, I slow down if I can in order to let the obstruction to move ahead.
In other cases, it is more practical just to accelerate hard and use that vehicle as a shield against the left turner.

When we are the left turners, we should never turn too quick after the "white van" of the article, being hidden little trailers the main danger for us.

Exactly!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by aeroblade

Its not a debate, just discussing about something that should have been included. This is how you learn.

I will take that.

Originally Posted by aeroblade

So if I get run over from behind by a drunk driver while at a red light... its my fault?

In this case fault doesn't really matter now does it? He didn't care about your safety, again leaving you ALONE to worry about it.

[aeroblade]

Originally Posted by csmith12

In this case fault doesn't really matter now does it? He didn't care about your safety, again leaving you ALONE to worry about it.

Touché.

[ally99]

"Blame" is not what's at discussion here. Who really gives a **** whose fault it is? We just want to avoid collisions at all costs on the bike because we will lose, and Hernan is right, the diagram shows a frequently made mistake and not a strategic place to be in that situation. As a rider, we should be looking as far ahead as possible and should have seen the car ahead about to turn left. At this point, the biker should be in the left of the lane to at least make him more visible to the left-turner. We, as the invisible ones on the road, sure as hell don't need to do things that make us even more invisible than we already are. You should be changing your lane position frequently in traffic and do your best to put yourself in sight of anyone pulling out ahead of you.

[Blake B]

this happened to me and my 4mo pregnant wife yesterday coming home from dinner.

the car ahead of us started to slow down (idiotically anticipating a red light, even though it just turned green) and we started approach that blind spot, well the guys turning thought they could make it- judging the other car slowing down.. and didn't see us.

luckily, i did. but a tire skid about 15ft long (50mph speed limit) didn't do anything to console my wife.. we maybe had 3ft between us and the car.

we of course were in our car.

[aeroblade]

Originally Posted by ally99

"Blame" is not what's at discussion here. Who really gives a **** whose fault it is? We just want to avoid collisions at all costs on the bike because we will lose, and Hernan is right, the diagram shows a frequently made mistake and not a strategic place to be in that situation. As a rider, we should be looking as far ahead as possible and should have seen the car ahead about to turn left. At this point, the biker should be in the left of the lane to at least make him more visible to the left-turner. We, as the invisible ones on the road, sure as hell don't need to do things that make us even more invisible than we already are. You should be changing your lane position frequently in traffic and do your best to put yourself in sight of anyone pulling out ahead of you.

Yes Ally, The entire point of the argument was not about the 'Blame'. It was about what was wrong in this scenario. A part of becoming a safe motorist is by assessing and learning from any and all events or accidents that occur all around us while on the road. Hence I thought It would be prudent to point out something that was (maybe unintentionally or unknowingly) left out. If this incident involved two motorcyclists instead of car then the result could have been perhaps a T-bone crash and plenty of broken bones. Riders should advice more caution esp since our vehicles are lighter and quicker to accelerate but not as quick when it comes to slowing down, but even so, it is my understanding that a majority of the people here do drive cars. Hence in my humble yet personal opinion such discussions on safety should not stop at motorcycles.

Originally Posted by Blake B

this happened to me and my 4mo pregnant wife yesterday coming home from dinner.

the car ahead of us started to slow down (idiotically anticipating a red light, even though it just turned green) and we started approach that blind spot, well the guys turning thought they could make it- judging the other car slowing down.. and didn't see us.

luckily, i did. but a tire skid about 15ft long (50mph speed limit) didn't do anything to console my wife.. we maybe had 3ft between us and the car.

we of course were in our car.

Good to know nothing bad happened.

It happened to me to once. I was driving my family to my cousin's place and I was keeping three car length distance (legally) between me and the car in front. This truck was waiting to make a turn and with out even looking at my car he turns in as soon as the car in front of me passed him by. I slammed on the brakes and the wheels just locked up skidding towards the truck which just stopped dead in my lane as if he was intentionally trying to murder us. The car stopped just inches away from the truck's gas tank.

[ChaoSS]

Originally Posted by aeroblade

Its not a debate, just discussing about something that should have been included. This is how you learn.

Exactly.

So if I get run over from behind by a drunk driver while at a red light... its my fault?

Legally, no, but it does represent a failure on your part to pay attention to your surroundings and ensure that you have an out for something like that.



Here's my problem with the article. Yes, of course, we can take away from this that we need to be more vigilant about making ourselves seen. I have no problems with the idea that we need to take responsibility for our own safety, and from the perspective of the rider, this was his fault. But I take serious issue with this:

so, too, is it incorrect to assume that the left-turner is at fault.

No, the left-turner turned without being able to see everything. When you make a turn, you must know that you are clear. Not just for motorcycles, but for pedestrians as well, who do have a tendency to come out of nowhere, as they are not required to walk on the road. I know a number of times when I was younger and newer to driving I'd gun it through a gap in traffic, only to realize that I was gunning it at a pedestrian, and if I slowed down I'd be in the path of oncoming traffic. And that was my fault, not the fault of anyone else.