The Ninja 300 will fail

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by azn370z

Most of these new buyers have heard of Honda and its reputation and most likely haven't heard of Kawasaki.

you do realize the moment you start thinking "hey i should get a motorcycle" you become aware of kawasaki, honda, suzuki and yamaha instantly right? People haz internetzzz.

[Heed]

Yep. IDK why we didn't get the fuel injected Ninja 250. Biggest fail in the first place.


Also I remember when I didn't know what Kawasaki was. My friend got a Brute Force, told me it was Kawasaki, great company, etc etc. and he laughed at me b/c I've never heard of them

[Live2ride]

Originally Posted by azn370z

The type of shopper the Ninja 300 and cbr250r attract are price conscientious ones. Most shoppers for these bikes are not enthusiast but people getting into biking for the first time. Most of these new buyers have heard of Honda and its reputation and most likely haven't heard of Kawasaki. They don't care about 300cc versus 250cc, rear tire size, etc.

The Ninja 250r used to be the 5th selling motorcycle in the US.
Kawasaki had a monopoly on the entry sport bike for many years. The Ninja 300 is a reactive response to Honda's cbr250r. The whole point of the Ninja 300 was to win back loss market share. But how does Kawasaki expect to beat Honda by charging $600* more for the base and $800* more for the abs model. In 5 years I'm sure the cbr250 will continue to dominate the Ninja.

Now I'm the type of buyer that spends $3000 on wheels or $1000 for a piece of carbon fiber to attach on my car. So buying the ninja 300 abs is not an issue for me. But I just don't see Honda losing this war.

*calculated using 2012 cbr pricing with the expectation that 2013 will have a $100 increase.

Considering the ninja 300 will have just the right amount of power for anyone to ride comfortably. It'll surpass any of it's 250 competitors, it looks like sex; and the cbr 250 looks like crap, has less power, and is at a similar price point, it's a no-brainer. If the resale value of the new ninja 300's aren't too high I'll probably purchase one myself. The new 636 makes me hard too.

[ninjaone]

I understand this is an online forum full of people who spend an disproportionate amount of time online, but you guys need to take a step back into the real world about how most people buy a motorcycle. Not many people will put the time in to research which brand offers the best package or what a slipper clutch is or the difference between a 250 or a 300. The fact is most people in the real world have never heard of Kawasaki, and a lot of people just default to buying Honda because many people just come from Accords and Civics and have brand loyalty baked in.

Also many people buy based purely on price especially for a starter bike. The CBR250 is already 500 cheaper then the 2012 250, and now it's 700 cheaper. There is a difference between improving a bike in every shape and being competitive in the marketplace. The 2013 Ninja 300 is a better package then the CBR, but it remains to be seen whether increasing the price and adding new features are what most people are looking for in the small displacement motorcycle market, and whether it's enough to pull people away from Honda in terms of brand loyalty.

[thisisbenji]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

The cbr250 is a single, it has like 21rwhp or something like that, the ninja 300 will have about 31rwhp essentially being 50% more powerful. Is that not a significant difference? Is 50% more power not worth $600 more? Because a lot of people go ahead and spend $300 on an exhaust can that does jack ****, and if they have room in the budget for that it will be very easy to convince them into a ninja 300

I agree 100%. Especially for beginners who are on the large side.

[Kygirl]

OP, the kind of people who don't research stuff before they buy are more likely to be the kind of people who will be impressed with the extra cc's. Just sayin. Cue this conversation:

rider 1: Nice bike!

rider2: it's a ninja 300. I needed more POWER and SPEED than I would have gotten with a 250 like yours. I'm just keeping this until I can get a 1000cc supersport.

so, either way you look at it I think there's gonna be a market for the 300

[thisisbenji]

Originally Posted by Kygirl

rider2: it's a ninja 300. I needed more POWER and SPEED than I would have gotten with a 250 like yours. I'm just keeping this until I can get a 1000cc supersport.

At least the 300 looks the part.. while I agree that the CBR is a great around town bike for the price I also believe that that people buying NEW bikes arn't looking for an economical means of transportation in the United States.

I mean I could pick up a good condition 90s ear Civic for $2,000 that'll last me years and give me close to 40 mpg. Theres no way id spend over twice that on something I can only ride 9 months out of the year.

Motorcycles are grown up toys for people with extra cash to blow. Now if I have 4k to blow chances are I can find another 700 dollars somewhere to get me a bike that's more capable than the CBR 250 will ever be.

[Aufitt]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

The cbr250 is a single, it has like 21rwhp or something like that,

Beg yours?

You best do some resarch.
Or you just telling porkies again jiggles?
Like your claims for a standard 2012 Ninja lol
or better still your +6hp from just an exhaust heh.

[DennyV]

I beg your pardon? When people think of sports bikes... one of the first things to pop up to mind is a ninja...

[thisisbenji]

If that's not 6 hp, I don't know what is...



21 hp seems pretty close to me for the CBR

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Who is this Kawasaki company? Never heard of em.

Kawasaki is a Japanese Company that makes ships, trains, tractors and various other industrial products.

[LoneRonin]

Originally Posted by azn370z

Just to let everyone know if you have Costco where you live, you can get Costco pricing. It's pretty much a couple hundred off msrp and no dealer prep charges or destination charges.

how the hell has no one told you this yet...

Its the 'NINJA' name that sells first of all. its been around 30 or so years now and has the cool factor, plain and simple.

Then you look at the thing and its slaps the **** out of the CBR in the looks department. Even the current gen is better looking than the CBR.

Then all the noobies wanna go vroom vroom and beat their buddies in the Civics and Corollas, can't do that on the CBR.

This is an evolution for Kawi in the small cc segment.



and Jiggles in what dimension is 21 hp vs 31 hp a 50% increase??? Just off the top of my head its about 30%, which is still significant

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by thisisbenji

At least the 300 looks the part.. while I agree that the CBR is a great around town bike for the price I also believe that that people buying NEW bikes arn't looking for an economical means of transportation in the United States.

I mean I could pick up a good condition 90s ear Civic for $2,000 that'll last me years and give me close to 40 mpg. Theres no way id spend over twice that on something I can only ride 9 months out of the year.

Motorcycles are grown up toys for people with extra cash to blow. Now if I have 4k to blow chances are I can find another 700 dollars somewhere to get me a bike that's more capable than the CBR 250 will ever be.

For people who are looking to get started in motorcycling - price matters a lot. It's not just the fact that you have the money laying around. Husbands have to convince their wives that it's in the budget, kids have to convince their parents and will have spending limits, people between 21 and 29 generally don't have thousands of dollars extra disposable income to just get whatever toy they feel like. If the mentality is you aren't going to keep the beginner bike anyway, why even spend almost 1k extra, why not just save for the bike you really want?

I may not have a business MBA from Harvard, or twenty years experience as an executive marketing motorcycles. I may just be a simple cave man, but there's one thing I do know - the United States is known as being one of the most price competitive markets for motorcycles and for most people working these days with financing at an all time low coming out of the worst recession this generation has seen - 700 dollars is not chump change.

And for people looking to get a small 250 for economy / fuel efficiency reasons, the CBR250R is still much more efficient then the Ninja - I can't imagine that equation changes much by increasing the engine size of the Ninja. New bikes matter to a lot of people who are looking at taking advantage of the unlimited mileage warranty and cheap 5 year extended warranty offered at dealers.

[bfpower]

Originally Posted by azn370z

Most of these new buyers have heard of Honda and its reputation and most likely haven't heard of Kawasaki.

Not true. I knew about Kawasaki for 20 years before buying a motorcycle, and I lusted for a Ninja for 15 years before I bought one. Price wasn't the key factor, the fact that the Ninja is the quintessential beginning sport bike was. I don't think I'm the exception either.

I think it's more likely that Kawasaki will CHANGE the minisport class than that they'll lose the class. And even if the CBR gains the lion's share, it will take a long time for the market to shift that much.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Heed

.

The fact that it's a single cylinder doesn't really bother me. There's no question that the Ninja 250 is better on the highway, but generally, 250's aren't ideal for highway use to begin with.

Why don't you try riding a motorcycle before you make silly statements

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by DennyV

I beg your pardon? When people think of sports bikes... one of the first things to pop up to mind is a ninja...

Yes, on a Kawasaki forum that's true - and for people who are already familiar with sport bikes. Ask 10 random people on the street who makes motorcycles and all 10 will say Honda, you'd be lucky if even one said Kawasaki.

[Heed]

it is apparent that I've never rode a motorcycle

[thisisbenji]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

For people who are looking to get started in motorcycling - price matters a lot. It's not just the fact that you have the money laying around. Husbands have to convince their wives that it's in the budget, kids have to convince their parents and will have spending limits, people between 21 and 29 generally don't have thousands of dollars extra disposable income to just get whatever toy they feel like. If the mentality is you aren't going to keep the beginner bike anyway, why even spend almost 1k extra, why not just save for the bike you really want?

I may not have a business MBA from Harvard, or twenty years experience as an executive marketing motorcycles. I may just be a simple cave man, but there's one thing I do know - the United States is known as being one of the most price competitive markets for motorcycles and for most people working these days with financing at an all time low coming out of the worst recession this generation has seen - 700 dollars is not chump change.

And for people looking to get a small 250 for economy / fuel efficiency reasons, the CBR250R is still much more efficient then the Ninja - I can't imagine that equation changes much by increasing the engine size of the Ninja. New bikes matter to a lot of people who are looking at taking advantage of the unlimited mileage warranty and cheap 5 year extended warranty offered at dealers.

If your a little bit on the heavy side I can see it making a huge difference.

I also don't have an MBA from Harvard but I am an accountant, and it takes a simply bit of math to realize that the difference in the long run is tiny. I'm talking a couple of cheeseburgers a month tiny.

Originally Posted by LoneRonin

and Jiggles in what dimension is 21 hp vs 31 hp a 50% increase??? Just off the top of my head its about 30%, which is still significant

I'd do the math before I made claims like that. Not trying to be mean or anything but, .5(21) = 10.5, 21+10.5=31.5, so it is in fact a 50% increase.

[Surferboy120]

At the end of the day there will be no fail by Honda or Kawasaki. They both make great bikes and they will both sell for many reasons we could all only dream of. There is a ton of market for these bikes as the price for everything goes up. I am excited to see the class being brought back to life with a bit of competition which will benefit us all as this moves forward.

[thisisbenji]

+1

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by thisisbenji

I'd do the math before I made claims like that. Not trying to be mean or anything but, .5(21) = 10.5, 21+10.5=31.5, so it is in fact a 50% increase.

Lmfao Kawi has 50% more power than the honda and honda has 33% less power than the kawi

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by azn370z

The type of shopper the Ninja 300 and cbr250r attract are price conscientious ones. Most shoppers for these bikes are not enthusiast but people getting into biking for the first time. Most of these new buyers have heard of Honda and its reputation and most likely haven't heard of Kawasaki. They don't care about 300cc versus 250cc, rear tire size, etc.

The Ninja 250r used to be the 5th selling motorcycle in the US.
Kawasaki had a monopoly on the entry sport bike for many years. The Ninja 300 is a reactive response to Honda's cbr250r. The whole point of the Ninja 300 was to win back loss market share. But how does Kawasaki expect to beat Honda by charging $600* more for the base and $800* more for the abs model. In 5 years I'm sure the cbr250 will continue to dominate the Ninja.

That's utter bollox, Kawasaki is one of the big 4 which everyone with even a passing interest in bikes know.
They've got a real advantage by making all their sports bikes available in kawasaki lime green, it's immediately recognisable.

Many parts of the world have restrictions for new riders (pretty much everywhere except the USA). Europe is standardising at no more than 35kW (about 46bhp) Honda's 250 is about half that, most beginners go for the highest powered machine legally allowed, I was predicting a 45bhp, 400 from one of the big 4 to be announced.

Kawasaki is also one of the biggest companies in the world, they've made everything from sections of the International Space Station, to nuclear power plants, attack helicopters to bullet trains & jet engines, submarines & the biggest selling bike worldwide.

If I was starting over & had the choice between the ninja 250 (08) & the CBR 250 it would be no contest, ninja 250, in a choice between the ninja 250 & 300 I'd go for the 300.

The CBR 250 has it's niche, but it's a city commuter only, it does it very well, but so does a dullville.

[rjones91]

I hope they both succeed in sales. A lot of Ninja owners generally knock the cbr 250 yet have never even ridden one. Its all about loyalty as Kawi folks go hard for their ninjas and honda folks go hard for their cbr's. I love them both but I think Kawasaki should have come out with a 400cc as the 300cc is just too close in engine size of the 250. I expect dealers won't be able to keep the 300s in stock. Hondas best bet would be to come out with the 400cc cbr or 500cc cbr or be in some trouble with the 250 cbr in the near future.

[Lil_Green_Demon]

Originally Posted by azn370z

Now I'm the type of buyer that spends $3000 on wheels or $1000 for a piece of carbon fiber to attach on my car. So buying the ninja 300 abs is not an issue for me.

I don't see how this is relevant info. So we're supposed to assume that though you're complaining about the price, it's done understandably so because, hey! In the end of the day, you're the type of buyer who spends $3,000 on wheels or $1,000 for a piece of carbon fiber to attach on your car, right?

[DougBR]

For someone not to know Kawasaki or what a bike named Ninja is, it has to be an alien or something else out of this planet.
I have wanted (or lusted for) a Ninja since I was a kid back in the 80's-90's. But the thing about it is that I am from Brazil and Kawasaki didn't start selling Ninjas here until 2009. Before that there wasn't even a pregen here and I already wanted one, just from the name and the very few imported bigger Ninjas around. And there wasn't even internet back then. So, really, if you don't know Kawasaki, you are a alienated person (if that word makes sense in English)

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by rjones91

I hope they both succeed in sales. A lot of Ninja owners generally knock the cbr 250 yet have never even ridden one. Its all about loyalty as Kawi folks go hard for their ninjas and honda folks go hard for their cbr's. I love them both but I think Kawasaki should have come out with a 400cc as the 300cc is just too close in engine size of the 250. I expect dealers won't be able to keep the 300s in stock. Hondas best bet would be to come out with the 400cc cbr or 500cc cbr or be in some trouble with the 250 cbr in the near future.

I for one am not looking forward to the current "race to the bottom" which seems to be happening right now in the small displacement motorcycle sector. Adding CCs here and there to a super budget platform is a good recipe for internet bragging rights, but it doesn't exactly produce high quality fun to ride motorcycles. I can't imagine if Honda responds by releasing a 500 CC bike with the same super mushy single disc brakes and barely adequate suspension with only rear preload adjustments they currently put on their CBR250R.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Gurk

you do realize the moment you start thinking "hey i should get a motorcycle" you become aware of kawasaki, honda, suzuki and yamaha instantly right? People haz internetzzz.

On top of that, there's 2 names people think of when they think crotch rocket: ninja, and gixxer. That's all I knew when I started looking...


The 300 will do great, especially in the European market, where the limits were just raised for beginners. This is officially the most powerful bike that a beginner can get that has more features than anything else on the market.

OP, stop b**ching about how much it costs. If you're cheap and are complaining about the cost of buying a bike, buy a pregen. They're cheap and bullet proof. The price of the 250 increased in 2008 when it was remodeled. People complained. But the bike still sold like hot cakes.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by rjones91

I hope they both succeed in sales. A lot of Ninja owners generally knock the cbr 250 yet have never even ridden one. Its all about loyalty as Kawi folks go hard for their ninjas and honda folks go hard for their cbr's. I love them both but I think Kawasaki should have come out with a 400cc as the 300cc is just too close in engine size of the 250. I expect dealers won't be able to keep the 300s in stock. Hondas best bet would be to come out with the 400cc cbr or 500cc cbr or be in some trouble with the 250 cbr in the near future.

CBR' s are not really the answer (and the current 250 is an insult to the CBR title, it's a baby 'new' VFR at best, baby dullville at worst) something like a RVF 400 which was extremely cool little machine back in it's day with decent midrange & extreme agility should make a comeback.

[Heed]

sad thing for Honda is that the CBR is almost virtually the same for 2013.

as said before, best thing they can do is drop their price which to be fair is still TBD for their '13

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

CBR' s are not really the answer (and the current 250 is an insult to the CBR title, it's a baby 'new' VFR at best, baby dullville at worst) something like a RVF 400 which was extremely cool little machine back in it's day with decent midrange & extreme agility should make a comeback.

Insult to CBR title goes a little far. CBRs have always stood for lightweight sport bikes - VFRs have all turned into 500+ pound heavy weight sport tourers. VFRs all have V4 engines by the way.

With just light weight mufflers and wheels a CBR250 can get very close to 300 pounds wet, which is not possible for a Ninja without significant changes. Honda also makes CBR125 and CBR150 which are popular in racing classes around the world.

[Boom King]

I have no doubt Kawasaki's decision to go with the 300 cc, features, and MSRP are all backed by what they feel is sound market intelligence. Sure, it's a competitive reaction but that's only natural when you're the only game in town for years and then in steps one of the other big 4 wanting a piece of the pie. Kawasaki had to expect that this would happen sooner or later.

What I'm more sure of is that this isn't a knee jerk or blind reaction from the folks at Kawasaki to Honda. Yes the MSRP is higher, however within the same segment companies can take different approaches to market positioning and thus, pricing.

Honda has positioned the CBR250R as the affordable yet still fun offering in this segment and it will obviously appeal to the more budget-conscientious buyers and those looking at fuel economy. Even when the CBR entered into the foray, the Ninja 250 was still regarded as the more sporty, performance oriented of the two. With the 300, Kawasaki has embraced that positioning and taken it to the next level.

The 300 isn't simply about Kawasaki's answer to the CBR250R. I believe it's much more than that. It's about Kawasaki setting the bar and daring other players like Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, etc., to submit an answer to the 300.

[Surferboy120]

Originally Posted by Boom King

I have no doubt Kawasaki's decision to go with the 300 cc, features, and MSRP are all backed by what they feel is sound market intelligence. Sure, it's a competitive reaction but that's only natural when you're the only game in town for years and then in steps one of the other big 4 wanting a piece of the pie.

What I'm more sure of is that this isn't a knee jerk or blind reaction from the folks at Kawasaki to Honda. Yes the MSRP is higher, however within the same segment companies can take different approaches to market positioning and thus, pricing.

Honda has positioned the CBR250R as the affordable yet still fun offering in this segment and it will obviously appeal to the more budget-conscientious buyers and those looking at fuel economy. Even when the CBR entered into the foray, the Ninja 250 was still regarded as the more sporty, performance oriented of the two. With the 300, Kawasaki has embraced that positioning and taken it to the next level.

The 300 isn't simply about Kawasaki's answer to the CBR250R. I believe it's much more than that. It's about Kawasaki setting the bar and daring other players like Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, etc., to submit an answer to the 300.

[Major_Paine]

What we dont know is that the OP is actually working for kawasaki.. and gauging our interest in the bike by starting a crazy flaming thread with a ridiculous title

well played kawasaki. well played.

i own a cbr600rr, have a 250, have 2 fzrs and im still considering buying this 300. a good deal of people i know who have 250s want to sell and buy a 300 because fuel injection, the new electronics package, new gauges. yeah, its a nice bike, and even with just word of mouth, i think the 300 will be a hot item.

if honda re-styled their 250 to look better and ride a little more aggressively, we could have a really good smaller engine market here

[Major_Paine]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

Yes, on a Kawasaki forum that's true - and for people who are already familiar with sport bikes. Ask 10 random people on the street who makes motorcycles and all 10 will say Honda, you'd be lucky if even one said Kawasaki.

uhhh, i ride a green cbr. and the random people (RIDERS AND NON RIDERS) who approach me ask if i ride a ninja. this happens all the time, only other cbr owners will get my bike right.

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by Major_Paine

uhhh, i ride a green cbr. and the random people (RIDERS AND NON RIDERS) who approach me ask if i ride a ninja. this happens all the time, only other cbr owners will get my bike right.

Do you find that surprising when your sample population is the people who approach a green colored motorcycle wanting to talk to the rider?

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by Boom King

The 300 isn't simply about Kawasaki's answer to the CBR250R. I believe it's much more than that. It's about Kawasaki setting the bar and daring other players like Yamaha, Suzuki, KTM, etc., to submit an answer to the 300.

I'm not sure it's setting the bar "higher" but it is definitely positioning the Ninja 300 as a more distinct offering compared to the CBR250R. This generation of Ninja 300 shows they are two very different bikes now.

Customers can choose between a cheap and efficient sportbike or a more expensive and faster sportbike. I think the market has room for both, and I'm sure other manufacturers are watching pretty closely. They will probably wait and see how the Ninja 300 does before jumping in with either a CBR250R competitor or a Ninja 300 competitor.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

Insult to CBR title goes a little far. CBRs have always stood for lightweight sport bikes - VFRs have all turned into 500+ pound heavy weight sport tourers. VFRs all have V4 engines by the way.

With just light weight mufflers and wheels a CBR250 can get very close to 300 pounds wet, which is not possible for a Ninja without significant changes. Honda also makes CBR125 and CBR150 which are popular in racing classes around the world.

125 race class is usually 2 stroke, RS125s are a great little race machine, I don't know of any 150 race class, but it's possible they're popular in southeast asia.

The current CBR 250 isn't an I4, every other CBR (bar the 125) is an I4 sports bike, the old MC19s & MC22s (and the older versions) were I4, high revving sports bikes, the 125 is a single but looks more like the rest of the CBR family, the 250 is the odd one out:

Lets play the bike paternity test...


The baby


The rest of the family







But momma was playing offside with this



Lets ask

[ninjaone]

A bike is more then it's looks.

Yes, a CBR250R looks like a mini-VFR, but it's DNA is more CBR. CBRs have always been light weight sports bikes. VFRs have all exclusively had the V4 engine, and especially later morphed into sport tourers. The latest VFR even uses a shaft drive.

The CBR125R is a single cylinder four stroke on the market for 5 years.

The CBR150R is a single cylinder four stroke on the market for 10 years.

The few exceptions to the light weight CBR rule are the blackbird and hurricane. Every recent VFR within the last 10 years has been a heavy weight sports tourer over 500 pounds.

[alex.s]

can't be bothered to read more than 3 posts so heres my thoughts after skimming the rest;

OP doesn't realize they are in the minority of motorcyclists, thinks they are center of world. is wrong.

[Kristofferzero]

If you mean it'll fail in the sense that all the squids and posers will buy one, I agree. It'll sell like crazy regardless.