Seems like a lot of people ride without a M license

[subxero]

Just remembering when i took my Safety coarse in MD to get my license 90% of the riders in the class already had a motorcycles and have been riding them for quite some time with out a license, they were only taking this particular coarse to finally get legal. Is this common in other states?

Some what humorous was that most of them also had crash stories and not to sound like a "know it all, im better than you", but for most of them having been riding on roads for a while their skills and technique were lacking to say the least.

[alex.s]

this is common... it seems like there are two types of riders... those who ride simply so they can flaunt the image, and those who ride because they truly enjoy the experience. people who do it for the image generally wont take safety courses, stay legal, carry insurance, wear gear, or know how to ride in general


example: justin beiber.

[Zipster]

Out of the 8 that were in my class, 5 already had bikes and were riding without their class M. One of those 5 was taking it because of a ticket.

[ChrisCusi]

Yeah I had several people in my class who also had been riding for awhile without a license. And two had their permits but wanted to get the training to get the actual endorsement.

[Miles_Prower]

i don't know why you WOULDNT get your license..

[Ytse Frobozz]

In Massachusetts, you take a laughably easy written exam for your learner's permit, and as long as you don't ride at night and don't carry a passenger, you can jump on your Hayabusa and let it rip for the next two years, and you can just keep doing that. I took the safety course and got my M, but it's easy to see why some people wouldn't bother, especially if they have some kind of phobia about taking the course or the license test.

[EternalNewb]

The majority of people in my MSF course already had their bikes and were riding without a license... or permit. And a handful were only doing the class because they got ticketed and all that jazz.

[subxero]

Just seems risky to me, i mean sure the whole breaking the law thing, but more so insurance. Not having a M endorsement and you get in an accident, just seems like an easy out for an insurance company to tell you to go Ef yourself here is your bill for XXX,XXX thousands of dollars have a nice day

[Old Guy on a '08]

What dumbies

NC is the same as Mass. except you can ride at night. I'd been "off bikes" for a number of year and took the course with my son when I started riding again. We had ~16 in the class and none of them were riding without a M indorsement of some kind... only had myself and four other with any experience and all of us had M endorsements or M Learners permits...

Some states require the course and I think that's pretty smart. My sister teaches the MSF course in NV and she gift the tuition for the course to me an my son... (yes... she is a GREAT sister)

An earlier post by a memberin MD said that almost everyone FLUNKED the course in the class he was in.

[MaximumHP]

My class was the same also. Two things I think, at least in my area, that contribute are cost, about $250 for the course, and a general thought of “ah, I’ve been driving for 100 years, I know it all, I’m a good driver” attitude. You can be tested by the DMV for much cheaper, but you have to drive a significant distance to do it. So if you had a scooter for example it could take 2-1/2 hours of riding just to get there and you may have a hard time finding roads that aren’t 55 to get there if your scooter doesn’t go that fast. Or you could trailer it, but what a PITA that would be.

[rojoracing53]

Just because you have a M-1 license doesn't mean you know how to properly ride and the opposite can be said to those who ride without a M-1. Remember a squid is a squid no matter what level of license they have.

[bbonds007]

Most people in Pennsylvania seem to ride on permits, which is just a 20 question test that allows you to ride anything during the day without passengers. Which is stupid as the MSF course is free (paid mostly by permit fees, ironically). So there is no reason not to get a license. Unless you are ignorant of safety, which means you are an automatic squid.

[Miles_Prower]

Originally Posted by bbonds007

Most people in Pennsylvania seem to ride on permits, which is just a 20 question test that allows you to ride anything during the day without passengers. Which is stupid as the MSF course is free (paid mostly by permit fees, ironically). So there is no reason not to get a license. Unless you are ignorant of safety, which means you are a squid.

hahaha so true. it's free, and easy here, why wouldn't you take it!!

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Old Guy on a '08

What dumbies

....NC is the same as Mass. except you can ride at night.

NC has a new law that is in effect. The law closes a loophole that allowed motorcyclists to receive an 18-month permit and renew it indefinitely. This allowed them to ride after simply passing a vision test, a highway sign test and a written motorcycle knowledge test. The permit restricted them from riding with passengers.

The new law that requires anyone under 18 who applies for a motorcycle license in North Carolina to pass a safety class.

The course, which is also required for those seeking a learner’s permit or motorcycle endorsement, must be taught by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation or the N.C. Motorcycle Safety Education Program.

For those over 18, the motorcycle learners’ permits will be limited to 12 months plus one renewal of six months. After that, riders must pass a written or oral test and a road test for a motorcycle license or endorsement. After that the permit expires. Those riders whose learner's permits come up for renewal for the second time will have to pass the NC DMV Motorcycle road test or take a course and show proof, to get a full endorsement. A lot of first time riders can not pass the NC DMV Motorcycle road test, even some who have been riding for a while.

It takes more skill to ride slow and swerving than it does to ride fast and straight. It does not surprise me that a lot of cyclist ride without an M endorsement.

What's more surprising is that 1 in 5 drivers can't pass a driving test. That's what I read in an article. GMAC conducted a survey that stated, about 38 million Americans -- could not pass a written drivers test if they took it today. Think about what that means for us riders.

[Old Guy on a '08]

Blue, good to hear from you. We need to get together again for aride. Thanks for the input here.

I heard about the new law but hadn't seen it in print so I checked the DMV website. I'm glad to hear it. I was surprised when I took the MSF Course to see the problems that so many have with control of a motorcycle.

One negative to taking a riders course is getting your M Endorsement without riding what you normally ride... I took my DMV Test on my sister's Dyna (as I was without a bike at the time) and I assure you it would've been much easier on my Rebel 250 or Ninjette or the 250's that they had at the Riders Course. Not sure that serves the purpose. Commercial drivers have A B C ratings for different situations. Same thing for pilots...

Many countries in Europe have graduated liscenses or ones that are "Bike Specific" which probably is a good idea. They cost more for "super bikes" too....

[austexjg]

I rode for a while without a "M" on my license - found the class offered little to improve my skills. I would not consider doing the MSF class a reason think someone has the proper skills to ride safely on the streets - actually the opposite, might make someone think they are more experienced and lead to a false sense of ability. I found it scary to think that this class was enough to satisfy the DPS.

But take my opinion with a grain of salt because I am a fool.

[siebadn]

I agree about taking the class and not having the skill to ride. There were at least two people in our class of 6 who had little to no control and almost wrecked numerous times during the class that received their licenses. We ALL had our faults that sincerely needed to be worked on even after the class. Some knew we needed work, some did not.

I also agree that taking the class on a bike that isn't one you will be riding can be a huge disadvantage. I rode a Kawi Elminator the first day and couldn't handle the stretched out pegs. I've ridden dirt bikes my whole life, so I am only comfortable with my feet straight down or slightly behind. The next day I switched to a Suzuki and I was much, much at riding because I was comfortable! I was able to practice skills a good amount and feel better about riding.

One day after passing the class I took my pre-gen out to practice the same skills. The weight difference was tremendous, the throttle felt different, the friction zone was harder to find, etc. The beginner class doesn't allow people to bring their bikes, so I plan to take the second class in late spring/early summer to get practice and critique on MY bike.

More learning and practice can't be a bad thing. I really wish the US had some kind of graduated licensing program, better restrictions, anything that encouraged people to step out of the ego area and into the learner area.

[S1att3r]

I admit I ride without a M class license. Work scheduling and course cost are what's keeping me from taking the course. But I do plan on taking it next month. The only thing I'm not fully confident about are the figure 8s.

[Old Guy on a '08]

'Course the same thing were talking about here goes for cages too. The difference is that us two wheelers are not a big menance to other... same can't be said for the noobs in the cages...

[JELY1990]

In my class I think there were about 10 to 12 of us and 2 already had motorcycles and 2 already had scooters. One of the guys with a motorcycle said he'd been riding for over 20 years without his license.

[beerhalffull]

I had a permit for just under a year with my Honda Ruckus (50cc scooter) and got my license because my friend said he wouldn't sell me his Ninja if I didn't take the course. I thank him for the great deal and the push to ride safe.

As for the rest in the class...they seemed to be a mix like you guys are describing. Some had bikes for years, some had been riding until their permits expired and others seemed like they never even rode a bicycle as a child.

I don't think it's uncommon to ride without a license anywhere to be honest.

[Aggrotech]

I had to qualify on a Honda Rebel. Absolutely hated that thing. There were about 4 people in my class that didnt have any licenses that rode over TO the msf course lol.

[nickjpass]

I haven't ridden without supervision, but there have been several cases where I have almost ridden with a license. I just remind my self that if I get caught with my permit, it will hinder me from getting my endorsement.

[Orleanne]

Slightly different laws here in the UK, but similar disregard for them.

At present (until January) an A2 restricted license allows younger riders to ride anything upto 33bhp. But you can buy something bigger and restrict it.

Kid buys bike, Kid restricts bike for certificate, Kid looks on youtube at how to derestrict bike..... Happy kid ?!

[akcalhoun]

seems pretty common round my parts. most of the people at my class were older individuals who had been riding like 20+ years and were there to get legal. I admit i rode for bout 2 months before the test without license, because i wanted to be able to at least have a little experience before paying $200 for the course so i rode on some of the back roads around my place (i live a little out in the boonies). most of the people i know personally that ride also dont have a license. the $200 does seem a lot for the course but i feel like even experienced riders may find at least a few things to take away from it. also the multiple "hada lay'er over" stories that i heard while at my course was freaking halarious

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I haven't ridden without supervision, but there have been several cases where I have almost ridden with a license. I just remind my self that if I get caught with my permit, it will hinder me from getting my endorsement.

What are the rules in New York. I got mine first M endorsement in NY way back in the mid 60s. Whats it take to get a Permit and then a full M Endorsement/

[csmith12]

I must confess, I rode on a permit for 10yrs. There was nothing to really gain or loose until the laws became more strict many years ago. Damn... I feel old now.

[Cary26]

The class I am taking in Costa Mesa, CA. allows you to use you bike as long as it is under 350cc and you have insurance, registration.

[nickjpass]

Currently, you have to be 16 to get your M or DJ (drivers) permit. Then, to get your M endorsement you either have to get a MSF certificate of completion, or take the road test. I took the MSF course. To get your permit, you have to take a simple twenty question exam, which I aced. Overall, it's really easy. But, after getting your permit, you have to wait a minimum of six months before you can even apply for your license. It's pretty annoying. I have had my permits for almost a year now, took the course over a three months ago. I need to get my drivers license if I want to get my M endorsement...so boohoo...I still ride though I'm well above the 50 hours required limit that is recommended...

[Apex]

I rode for a while without a license back when I lived in Illinois. I took it to a friends garage (back roads as much as I could) and parked it. I got free parking there if I babysat their kid once a week, which was only for about 2 hours at a time...not bad.

Anyway, I just putted around the neighborhood until I felt comfortable, then took it to the DMV and did my riding test. I drove away licensed. I read up on safety all the time because I couldn't afford an MSF course at the time. Moving back to Texas, I lost my "M", they forgot to xfer it. Ended up taking the MSF course, and just about all except 1 had a bike and was riding. They were all doing group rides and commuting on them. Stuff that I never did when I was without a license.

I am glad I did take the MSF course. I knew all they preached, but it was still fun.

[SemperFudge]

ive been riding with only my learners permit since september. i passed the msf and have my certificate to wave the riding test, its just that whenever i go to the dmv, the line wraps around the building.



which sadly means yes, i rarely ride at night, and i havent been on the freeway yet

[Apex]

Yeah, it is a pain at the DMV, however, it is more of a pain dealing with a ticket for riding without a license...

[Daks]

I got squared away long before I got my bike. However, it is easier when you start while already 21. xP

I have a coworker who has literally never had their M license. Cops didn't seem to notice/care. I told him he was just lucky.

For me, the course was 100% worth it, license-getting ease wise and not. You learn a lot normal street riding may not prepare you for on learning experiences alone.

[CZroe]

The Governator himself almost got in trouble when he got into an accident and they found out that he didn't have a license (and never had one). His kid was in the sidecar, so even a learner's permit would not have helped if it weren't for a loophole his lawyers found that exempted 3-wheel vehicles from California's motorcycle licensing requirements.

But, yeah: Repeatedly renewing learner's permits is REALLY common.

[NinjetteNewfie]

In my province, you have to pass a written test and a balance test in order to get your motorcycle permit. If you do a motorcycle safety course, the balance portion of the test is waived if you provide the certificate from the course. While riding with just the permit, you are NOT allowed to ride by youself, you MUST ride with someone who has had their full motorcycle endorsement for at least four years. Also, no riding after dark, no passengers, blah, blah, blah.... If you passed an approved course, you can do the road test to get your full endorsement once you have had your permit for at least one month. If you did not do a course, you are not eligible to do the road test until you have had the permit for at least one year. So, I completed the motorcycle course on July 4th '10, wrote my permit on the 5th, and did the road test for my full Class 6 endorsement on August 16th '10. Motorcycle course here was $350 for a four hour in-class session, and a twelve hour on-bike session.

[Old Guy on a '08]

Balance Test???
Road Test???

What is the difference in the two?
$350 sounds real steep. What's your feelings on what you learned?
Waiting a year I'm sure encourages folks to take the course but do you know some riders that just ride illegal any way???

[NinjetteNewfie]

Balance test, in order to get you permit, is done at the motor vehicle compound, basically you just ride around a series of traffic cones, weaving, turning and stopping at various points to show that you can control a bike enough to take it on the streets. Road test is to get the full endorsement, done on the city streets, following normal traffic rules, with a person from DMV driving behind you in a car telling you where to turn, what lane to get in, blah, blah..

Most people I know have done the course, and if I know of anyone who wants to get their motorcycle license, I tell them to do the course, if for no other reason than it enables them to get the full license quicker. Personally, I don't know anyone who rides their bike without a license, but I'm sure that it does happen. Too risky IMO, have an at fault accident without the license and you're pretty much financially F**ked for the rest of your life!!

As for the course itself, I had never ridden anything two-wheeled before other than a bicycle so I found it incredibly helpful. They provide the bikes so you don't feel bad if you drop it I had bought a honda CBR 125 about a month before the course, and did nothing with it other than wash it, wax it and sit on it because I did not want to damage it. At the course, you could pick from CBR 125s or 250 Suzuki Marauders, so I picked the 125. Never dropped it at the course and gained a lot of confidence in my ability to handle the bike.

[subxero]

Yeah in Maryland it was definitely a PITA.

$250 for the coarse, then $75 to get my 8 year license
Then dealing with the MVA just to get my M...lets just say i had never actually considered murdering someone until that day.

Already had legit drivers license, took my cert for MSF ect... to MVA. When i got to the final station lady said, OH the computer is asking me for your socal security card. I was like ahhhh don't have it....I ALREADY HAVE A MD LICENSE!! HENCE i have already provided, my Socal, Birth Cert, and proof of residence once before!! Had to drive whole way back to my place to get all that crap, and the stuff they except for proof of residency isn't exactly stuff you have laying around. All this despite having a legit MD drivers license... which they gave me, that has all the freakin info on it which i provided all documents in the past to get....is worthless in their eyes.

Provide all that documentation, to get an License that they don't even except? I'm so confused

I hate that place

/end rant

[NinjetteNewfie]

LOL!! Yeah gotta hate Department of Motor Vehicle, sounds like they are the same everywhere!!! $75 for an eight year license isn't bad though, we pay $100 for five years, but there is no limit on endorsements. Regular driver's license is a Class 5, everything else like motorcycle Class 6, airbrake Class 1, etc., is just an endorsement. So you could have a Class 5 license with three or four endorsements on it and its still only $100 for the five years.

[ai4px]

Here in SC, you can get a beginner motorcycle permit with $10 and a super easy written test. It's good for a year. About 4-5 years ago they upped the motorcycle riding test from 3 components to 7. I think they were trying to address the issue of too many people getting killed on bikes via an easy road test. What's happened instead IMHO is they have caused more people to just ride on their permits forever or not get the motorcycle endorsement at all. I don't think it's done anything to the accident rate since those careless people just ride anyway. I was surprised to find out one of my neighbors rides with just his car endorsement. It must be the libertarian in me... you just can't save people from themselves. They'll find a way to do what they want regardless of the obstacles placed in their path.

I liked the comment I saw in this thread about you can be a squid at any time.

One thing I do miss about having my permit though.... It was a separate ID card which I left in my dry bag under the seat with insurance card. Then I could leave my thick azz wallet at home when I rode. My wallet has an RFID card in it for work and really is a PITA on long rides.