Jetting, Dyno Tuning, AFRs??? Help A Jiglet Out

[Jiggles]

Alright, so I went down for another dyno run today to see where I'm at. I was running dynojet 108 mains, dynojet needles on the third clip, and idle screws about 3 turns out. So we got on the dyno and got some weirdness, some super duper lean weirdness. We couldn't figure it out but I suggested maybe the afr meter wasn't far enough in the exhaust. The guy thought it was worth a shot and spent 20 minutes modifying his little tool to go further down the exhaust and this is what we got

Configuration
Area P Race Exhaust
K&N 0990 Pod Filters
Main: Dynojet 108
Needle: 4th Position Clip
Idle Screws: 3 Turns


Much better! So as you can see I'm way to lean in most parts and a little rich in some parts. Before we took this dyno the guy changed the clip position to #4 on the needle (didn't even charge me ) so at this point I'm one position away from the richest clip position. He also gave me some Keihn 115's which is the next size up main jet, he recommends I put those in and put the clip to the 5th position. In addition to the free jets he said the next dyno run would be free as well

So what do you guys think? Obviously my midrange is super lean and the powerband has the AFR dip too low and then rise too high. What's the next step?

[alex.s]

down one pilot jet, raise the needle 2 clips, 2 sizes bigger main jet.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by alex.s

down one pilot jet, raise the needle 2 clips, 2 sizes bigger main jet.

I don't have any pilot jets, whats the need for it?

I can only raise the needle 1 more clip, so raise it by one and put 2 washers under?

2 sizes bigger on the main????? Ugh I'll go order some

[choneofakind]

Then turn the idle mix screws in. 3 turns out is pretty far. Try a quarter turn

[Jiggles]

Is that the slow jet from the site you told me about?

[choneofakind]

Yes. The pilot jet is the slow jet.

You have the stock pilot jet in there now right? Just turn the mix screws in.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yes. The pilot jet is the slow jet.

You have the stock pilot jet in there now right? Just turn the mix screws in.

Why would I turn the screws in?

[alex.s]

just uh... **** around with it until its right.

[choneofakind]

It's rich at the bottom. The mix screws control fuel. Further out = more fuel for the same amount of air. Further in = less fuel for the same amount of air.

Turn them in to lean the mixture a little bit.

alex said to go down a pilot jet, but if it's got the stock pilot and the mix screw is out at 3 turns, it doesn't make sense when you can just put the mix screw back in a little bit.

[alex.s]

you know looking back at the chart it looks like the needle is over correcting. set mix screws to stock and just go up two on the main jet and by then you should be able to lower the needle back to the center clip.

[choneofakind]

@Jiggles, is it the stock pilot or not???

Originally Posted by alex.s

its a poormans way of going down a pilot jet.

he said he's out at 3 turns. 2.5 is the stock setting. So he has to undo what he did before we decide if it needs a smaller pilot or not.

SOMEONE still hasn't said if he changed out the pilot or not. If it's the stock pilot, there's no need to go down a size. Just turn the mix screw in to where it should be.

If anything, he would need a larger pilot when switching to a pod filter, assuming he didn't change the mix screws. Right?

[alex.s]

pod filters make less stable air. less air is able to flow at low flow rates which means when its at a low flow rate, the turbulence will be very high and so it makes stock pilots too rich. its what people blame on a "lack of vacuum" (an odd thought which requires a lack of understand of how an engine works) or blame it on "lack of engine intake back pressure" or "intake resistance" because of the airbox instead of realizing that they were just lazy and didnt adjust the pilot system. this is usually why people claim pod filters make bikes "gutless" at low rpm. backpressure like people talk about there is useful for creating a negative pressure between exhaust strokes to aid pulling out the exhaust gas, but it doesnt work like that for the intake until you get into ram air

[Jiggles]

Yea its a stock pilot jet. Those mixture screws were pissing me off so what I eventually ended up doing was turning them all the way in then following alexs directions on turning them out and I ended up at 3 turns. So I should turn them in how far?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I eventually ended up doing was turning them all the way in then following alexs directions on turning them out

what?

[Jiggles]

So by turning them in that should fix up the bottom poopy part but it will make then entire range slightly more lean correct? So I should still pull the needle out more right?

[choneofakind]

OHHH that makes sense alex thanks! So then would long runners on the intake help? that would help get air all going one direction. I know my efi kit has some pretty good runners between the K&N and the TB's, and it seems just fine down low.

Or velocity stacks?

Could I get more low end by going back to the airbox?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

So by turning them in that should fix up the bottom poopy part but it will make then entire range slightly more lean correct?

yes

So I should still pull the needle out more right?

no. main jets then needles.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by alex.s

what?

this

Originally Posted by alex.s

step 1: create a new gas tank that lets you access the carbs easily with the tank off, put a fan in front of the bike pointing at the radiator. turn the fan on high.

step 2: warm the bike up. check where the idle is and make a mental note. with the bike running and the tank off you should be able to access the mix screws on the carbs. with the bike running, turn each screw a quarter turn one direction. did the idle go up or down? if it went up, keep turning in that direction until the idle reaches the highest. if it went down, turn the screw in the other direction. if you get to either end of the mix screw (wont go in any more, wont go out anymore), make a paper note about which way, and what pilot screw you were in.

step 3: try another pilot jet. pick a direction, its safer to go richer instead of leaner first. try that jet, repeat step 2 with that pilot jet. dont touch the idle nob this entire time or you will throw off your results. can you get it to idle higher with that pilot jet? then that pilot jet is better. keep going that direction until it stops getting better. did it get worse with that pilot jet? go the other direction. pick the jet that gave the highest idle after tuning the mix screw for that jet. if your idle is getting too high (higher than 4k rpm) you can start turning it down, just remember that all the numbers will be skewed. remember to take that into consideration when making and reading your notes.

step 4: after you have chosen the correct pilot jet, adjust your idle nob down to 1500rpm.

---------

step 5: put in the largest main jet you have.

step 6: put the tank on, get the bike ready to ride, warm it up and take it for a ride. while you ride make mental notes about the way it performs with wide open throttle at max rpm in a specific gear. always use the same gear. use a higher gear. if you have an area where you can take it to redline in 5th or 6th gear, thats ideal because you will notice the difference in power the most. just do it where you wont get a ticket (where its legal and you arent going to die) take a few passes to be sure its consistent. dont worry if it struggles at mid-range rpm or half throttle at this point only focus on wide open max rpm power here.

step 7: when you get back to the garage, write down what you thought of the power with that jet on paper. put in a smaller jet and try step 6 again. continue until the top end stops getting better or if it starts getting worse. pick the jet that felt the best. (most power) if two jets feel the same, pick the larger of the two.

---------

step 8: if there is any stuttering, clunkyness or roughness during an rpm climb from wide open throttle through the rpm range of 5 to 9k rpm, your fuel curve isnt right. the needle height adjusts the needle curve. if it feels jittery like the engine wants to cut out usually that means its too rich, so drop the needle down. feeling lean is a little bit harder, just doesnt have as much power but not as clunky as a rich condition

doing plug checks will tell you if you are lean or rich at any time.

Except I only have 1 set of pilots

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by alex.s

yes



no. main jets then needles.

Welp, were shooting for as close as possible before I go back to the dyno. Then we are going to dyno tune it

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

OHHH that makes sense alex thanks! So then would long runners on the intake help? that would help get air all going one direction. I know my efi kit has some pretty good runners between the K&N and the TB's, and it seems just fine down low.

Or velocity stacks?

Could I get more low end by going back to the airbox?

long runners, velocity stacks, its all the same. it smoothes the air flow. air boxes are an evolution from it in the sense that they are stacks inside a container to prevent cross-breeze turbulence. ram air is the evolution after that, using the forward pressure to pressurize the air box. works much better than those stupid harley style "vram" side mount intakes which doesn't use a big enough air box to smoothe the air out enough.

[Racer x]

What number pilots are you running? I used #48. Are you running a modified ignition box? Like the BRT? I used 117 jets with timing advanced.

The clip position will change the relationship between the needle and the jet . If you go with a larger jet you will want to move the needle back down a little. Or it will be rich over the whole power band.
Turn the idle crews out 2.5 turs . And go one richer with the pilot and the 115. Then retest It looks like you are rich at idle then lean through the pilot. At 7500 your power flattens out . This is normal and can be corrected with adding a couple deg of timing in that area. Why is the torque curve so flat?

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Racer x

What number pilots are you running? I used #48. Are you running a modified ignition box? Like the BRT? I used 117 jets with timing advanced.

The clip position will change the relationship between the needle and the jet . If you go with a larger jet you will want to move the needle back down a little. Or it will be rich over the whole power band.
Turn the idle crews out 2.5 turs . And go one richer with the pilot and the 115. Then retest It looks like you are rich at idle then lean through the pilot. At 7500 your power flattens out . This is normal and can be corrected with adding a couple deg of timing in that area. Why is the torque curve so flat?

Everything is stock except for the mods I've listed. The bike will idle better at the correct AFR right? And if its rich at idle shouldn't I lean it out by either turning the screw in more or going with a smaller pilot not a larger one?

Torque curve is just smooshed down to make room for the AFR

[Ninja Chris]

I don't mean to threadjack, but when this is all said and done is it possible to organize the 3 or 4 threads covering the creation of "Jiggle's Jiglet"? (and maybe give it a more family friendly title).

I've learned a lot following Jiggles on his merry adventures and I'm seriously considering this route myself. All the forum research I've done so far has left me confused. There are opposing methods championed for how this should be done, and having those different ideas hashed out in the open, and explained in simple English like this has been extremely helpful.

[DennyV]

lol Jiggles should put up a DIY of how to install all this crap.... I should then go with similar mods and use his settings since i cant afford to have my **** dynoed

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Ninja Chris

I don't mean to threadjack, but when this is all said and done is it possible to organize the 3 or 4 threads covering the creation of "Jiggle's Jiglet"? (and maybe give it a more family friendly title).

I've learned a lot following Jiggles on his merry adventures and I'm seriously considering this route myself. All the forum research I've done so far has left me confused. There are opposing methods championed for how this should be done, and having those different ideas hashed out in the open, and explained in simple English like this has been extremely helpful.

What is wrong with Jiglets???

There is a very jiggly 250 which was my build thread, then there was help ive no clue wtf needles do, and now there is fine tuning the jetting. If you want to find all these threads just click my name then go to view profile > statistics > all threads started by jiggles. A few hours sorting through that and you can find these threads

Originally Posted by DennyV

lol Jiggles should put up a DIY of how to install all this crap.... I should then go with similar mods and use his settings since i cant afford to have my **** dynoed

Hey, go vote then

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114107

[Jiggles]

Question for my ecotrons homies @choneofakind @EMSRacer07 @lgk

I'm considering getting an AFR gauge (wideband O2) installed onto the midpipe of my exhaust in order to give me at home AFR numbers so its easier to tune. I do want to switch to ecotrons eventually, like next summer maybe. So if I did get the ecotrons kit with the narrow band sensors on both pipes and the AFR gauge on the midpipe would that make tuning rich mode a hell of a lot easier? (lol @ 3 O2 bungs on a ninja 250)

Matt also has an option to do wideband sensors though it is an additional $278 to do 1 wide band O2 and I'll have already spent about $150 on the AFR gauge. So question is, do you think it would be worth that extra $278 to do the wideband route with ecotrons and have the kit tune itself (though each injector would not be receiving its own data but an averaged feedback of both) or do you think it would better to save that extra money, install the narrowbands in both pipes as well as the AFR gauge and tune rich mode myself?

[Ninja Chris]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

What is wrong with Jiglets???

There is a very jiggly 250 which was my build thread, then there was help ive no clue wtf needles do, and now there is fine tuning the jetting. If you want to find all these threads just click my name then go to view profile > statistics > all threads started by jiggles. A few hours sorting through that and you can find these threads

Nothing wrong with Jiglets as far as I know Jiggles. But then you might want to consult a physician as I'm not an expert on that topic. Seriously though, I amended my original statement, it ended up being incidentally inflammatory, I'm glad I managed to downgrade it to generally confusing.

I think you're documenting your journey so well it is sticky or wiki worthy.

[choneofakind]

Sean, I'm really not sure. Judging by my bike, running 3 oxygen sensors might be pushing it a bit power-wise

You'd likely have to talk to Matt ahead of time. You'll prolly need some custom software, where each injector supplies the same amount of fuel, based on the reading from one sensor, rather than each injector being influenced by the readings off of in individual sensor.

But if you can get it to work, tuning would be a breeze: just tell it what your desired lambda table!

I need some dyno time to figure out how mine is doing in rich mode. I think my rich map is more rich than it needs to be from about 12k up

[Jiggles]

My intent is for every DIY to be accompanied by a Jiggly Vid

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Sean, I'm really not sure. Judging by my bike, running 3 oxygen sensors might be pushing it a bit power-wise

You'd likely have to talk to Matt ahead of time. You'll prolly need some custom software, where each injector supplies the same amount of fuel, based on the reading from one sensor, rather than each injector being influenced by the readings off of in individual sensor.

But if you can get it to work, tuning would be a breeze: just tell it what your desired lambda table!

I need some dyno time to figure out how mine is doing in rich mode. I think my rich map is more rich than it needs to be from about 12k up

Y U NO ANSWER QUESTION???

I'll simplify it lol

If you had a AFR gauge along with your current kit would you find it rather easy to tune rich mode? And would you rather tune rich mode like that or for $278 more allow rich mode to self tune (though possibly at the cost of "averaged" data between each injector)?

And I don't think the O2 sensors would really block too much exhaust do you? 1 in each header and 1 in the midpipe? I could always remove and plug the midpipe one if I needed to right?

[choneofakind]

yeah it would be easy. But I wouldn't be able to reliably power that many sensors. I have a tiny battery.

You'd still need to leave it in learning mode for a while so it got an idea of what your system needed. Then pull the NB O2 sensors and put the WB O2 sensor in your mid pipe and double check everything in rich mode. Then leave it in rich mode.

That better? The wideband would be good for double checking

[Jiggles]

Ah, so you wouldn't leave all three in eh? Ok, I think Ill go the standard ecotrons route with an AFR gauge. Sounds fun But for now I'll get the AFR gauge for the carbs

[kingkang204]

Hey Jiggles...

Ninja 300 + PC + Area P

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by kingkang204

Hey Jiggles...

Ninja 300 + PC + Area P

That sounds kinda gay, how about bored out 250 + ecotrons + area p

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

That sounds kinda gay, how about bored out 250 + ecotrons + area p

Sounds nice, but pricey & time consuming.

Although, I kinda like keeping mods to a minimum. It seems as if whenever you mod something, the fit & finish is never the same quality as oem.

Just curious, where do you go to school for engineering?

[Jiggles]

San Jose State. How do you know I'm an engineer? lol

Its not like I'd be swapping out a new motor or anything and with the airbox gone there is plenty of space for EFI

Also my ninja cost $4000 + $700 (AP + jets) + $100 (Air filter, other odds and ends) so $4800. Yours will cost lets say $5500 OTD + $600 (AP) + $300 (PC) +$100 (Air filters, odds and ends) so $6500. Yep more expensive lol. Don't know what a big bore kit would cost or if I even want to do it, probably a few hundred though

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

San Jose State. How do you know I'm an engineer? lol

Its not like I'd be swapping out a new motor or anything and with the airbox gone there is plenty of space for EFI

Also my ninja cost $4000 + $700 (AP + jets) + $100 (Air filter, other odds and ends) so $4800. Yours will cost lets say $5500 OTD + $600 (AP) + $300 (PC) +$100 (Air filters, odds and ends) so $6500. Yep more expensive lol. Don't know what a big bore kit would cost or if I even want to do it, probably a few hundred though

You mentioned it in another thread, I'm doing Mechanical Engineering or Aeronautics & Astronautics.

But you have to consider, a fully modded 250(not bored out) will have ~32 hp. The ninja 300, although we don't know for sure what the WHP will be, will probably be around ~32 hp also. Plus here in WA we don't have as awful dealer fees. I got my 2010 SE(in 2011) just $100 more OTD than the msrp

Regardless, I guess there is some joy in working on your own bike so there is that.

[Jiggles]

I don't like the way the 300 looks anyway

And if the engine is easily swappable then maybe I'll do that!

[lgk]

i'm not sure how matt wires his wideband unit.
if the ecu can actually read/log the data from the wideband it definitely worth it.

i went with the innovate mtx and i have a spare lc-1 in case i need narrowband emulator function. right now i took the guage/sensor off and plugged it off since someone thought it would be cool to try and steal the guage...

the power usage is the most at startup when the heater is on.
if you plan on a lot of stop and go driving i would tune and then remove it.

as far as placement i copied greg737's setup.

[flynjay]

One thing that you have to remember @Jiggles is that the dyno run is at full throttle. So what you are seeing on the graph is the overall performance of the main jet.

Yes it is lean in the mid range, but looks pretty good from 7000 to redline. This is more a function of airfilter and carburator geometry. You could probably go up one main jet size to bring the whole graph down. Then go a little leaner on the needle clip position.

Ideal stoichiometric AFR for gasoline is 14.7. Ideal for power is what the tuners have put on your graph.

As far as the rest of the throttle response, you are going to have to go by feel.