What are you willing to sacrifice?

[kingkang204]

I first started riding when I was 17, my parents bought me a ninja 250r as a birthday / early graduation present. At first I was extremely cautious, abiding by the speed limit and never letting myself get too comfortable. But, as time went on I became comfortable, and I started to take on more risk. After a year of riding, we got another bike, so that both my brother and I could both ride, an R6. He and I started to push the limits, and before we knew it we both had gotten in some trouble. During that time, I never really fully thought through the consequences of our actions.

I left for college that summer and did not bring a bike with me. This was the first time I had spent a good amount of time away from riding, but when summer came again I was ready to ride. All of last summer I used the ninja to commute back and forth to school with no problem. However, at summers end I sold the ninja so that I could buy another bike this upcoming summer. Recently, I saw a youtube video, and it was composed of crash videos from an outside perspective (I.E. a cars dash cam), and the results were brutal. It made me think, beyond the immediate effects of a crash, what price do we pay in the long run?

I have no data to support my intuition (I didn’t look for any), but my assumption would be that motorcycle accidents end with more fatalities or debilitating injuries. So I was curious, how do you all rationalize the (potential for) additional risk of riding? What are you willing to sacrifice? Future Pain? Mobility? A Limb? Your Life?

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by kingkang204

I first started riding when I was 17, my parents bought me a ninja 250r as a birthday / early graduation present. At first I was extremely cautious, abiding by the speed limit and never letting myself get too comfortable. But, as time went on I became comfortable, and I started to take on more risk. After a year of riding, we got another bike, so that both my brother and I could both ride, an R6. He and I started to push the limits, and before we knew it we both had gotten in some trouble. During that time, I never really fully thought through the consequences of our actions.

I left for college that summer and did not bring a bike with me. This was the first time I had spent a good amount of time away from riding, but when summer came again I was ready to ride. All of last summer I used the ninja to commute back and forth to school with no problem. However, at summers end I sold the ninja so that I could buy another bike this upcoming summer. Recently, I saw a youtube video, and it was composed of crash videos from an outside perspective (I.E. a cars dash cam), and the results were brutal. It made me think, beyond the immediate effects of a crash, what price do we pay in the long run?

I have no data to support my intuition (I didn’t look for any), but my assumption would be that motorcycle accidents end with more fatalities or debilitating injuries. So I was curious, how do you all rationalize the (potential for) additional risk of riding? What are you willing to sacrifice? Future Pain? Mobility? A Limb? Your Life?

Nothing.

[CC Cowboy]

I don't watch crashes, I don't post or read about crashes, I don't think about crashes, I ride like my life depends on it and I ride like everyone is out to kill me. It has worked for over 40 years for me.

[Motofool]

Very interesting question, Matthew !!!

The danger is out there, every single time that you ride.

There are many ways to reduce the risk, but there is no way to eliminate it completely.

If you decide riding, you have to be ready to pay the ultimate price.

If you are not, riding is not for you.

[rojoracing53]

It's hard to say for the street but as a racer for many years you live more in 5 minutes at 200 mph then most do in a lifetime. I understand the dangers and possibilities but in order to live a free life unobscured by worries I don't think about them unless I have to because doing so won't change the outcome of your choices. I do my best to limit how much fun(riding fast) on allow myself to have on the street, but will admit it was easier a year ago when I first started then now.

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I don't watch crashes, I don't post or read about crashes, I don't think about crashes, I ride like my life depends on it and I ride like everyone is out to kill me. It has worked for over 40 years for me.

I try not to as well, however the video I saw kept showing up as a suggestion on youtube, and one day I clicked it. Out of a 60 minute video, I only made it through 10 minutes. However, for me I find it difficult not to think about all the possibilities. I do agree that riding defensively will increase safety.

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Very interesting question, Matthew !!!

The danger is out there, every single time that you ride.

There are many ways to reduce the risk, but there is no way to eliminate it completely.

If you decide riding, you have to be ready to pay the ultimate price.

If you are not, riding is not for you.

I believe the reason I've been thinking about this recently is because I've realized that my parents have invested a lot in me (school is expensive). Plus, I am not sure if I would be willing to endure future pain (in the case of an accident), potentially for the rest of my life, for some enjoyment now.

I understand riding technology (in terms of safety) has advanced, but I haven't looked into it enough to see how well it mitigates the forces from crashing.

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

It's hard to say for the street but as a racer for many years you live more in 5 minutes at 200 mph then most do in a lifetime. I understand the dangers and possibilities but in order to live a free life unobscured by worries I don't think about them unless I have to because doing so won't change the outcome of your choices. I do my best to limit how much fun(riding fast) on allow myself to have on the street, but will admit it was easier a year ago when I first started then now.

I have never been out on a track before, but it was something that I was interested in. When I think about riding with my brother I remember all the good times, and I imagine its somewhat like the feeling of living more in 5 minutes than most other people do in a lifetime. But, I think if I chose to ride again, I couldn't do what I did before.

[cuz]

Its something we love to do.
Most of us know the risk that comes with riding.
Its a risk VS reward. You choose one.

[antiant]

I think that if you look at life in a self-defeating and self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way, then it's only a matter of time before something actually happens to you. It's like reading about SR's, people panic, start focusing on the wrong thing, then crash into that thing. If your mind is constantly on that "vibration," then it's like you're looking or asking for it. That type of thinking applies to a lot of things, even things like martial arts. If you're mentally unprepared, then that becomes a vulnerability and there is greater potential for something going astray. Also, there's always a safer environment, such as the track. The track is a closed environment, everyone is going the same direction, you don't have to deal with random things coming at you, for the most part, etc.

Life is a risk, some choose to live in a bubble because they don't want to push the envelope or their comfort levels and some do because they learn a lot about themselves, etc. I suppose what it boils down to is, what is life about to you and how much do you really want to live it and explore it? Personally, I am of the belief that I only have one shot at life, so it's all about "Carpe Diem."

[CC Cowboy]

If you find yourself riding too fast for the street then it's time for the track.

[allanoue]

quite now before you get a booboo

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by antiant

I think that if you look at life in a self-defeating and self-fulfilling prophecy kind of way, then it's only a matter of time before something actually happens to you. It's like reading about SR's, people panic, start focusing on the wrong thing, then crash into that thing. If your mind is constantly on that "vibration," then it's like you're looking or asking for it. That type of thinking applies to a lot of things, even things like martial arts. If you're mentally unprepared, then that becomes a vulnerability and there is greater potential for something going astray. Also, there's always a safer environment, such as the track. The track is a closed environment, everyone is going the same direction, you don't have to deal with random things coming at you, for the most part, etc.

Life is a risk, some choose to live in a bubble because they don't want to push the envelope or their comfort levels and some do because they learn a lot about themselves, etc. I suppose what it boils down to is, what is life about to you and how much do you really want to live it and explore it? Personally, I am of the belief that I only have one shot at life, so it's all about "Carpe Diem."

I agree that if you look for something you'll be more likely to find it. However, I think to some degree we don't have control over what happens, meaning you cannot control the driver who swerves into your lane, but certainly you can be aware and prepared to do something about it. But have you ever thought what it would really be like to be without one of your legs, or perhaps have a different disability?

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

If you find yourself riding too fast for the street then it's time for the track.

I agree. Either that or gain more self-control. But this isn't just about speeding, there have certainly been cases where a rider is doing everything right and still has gotten hurt doing so.

[the_little_one]

You have some deep questions for such a young man, and the fact that you are even thinking about this will make you a better rider.
There are risks just living everyday, and a reckless driver can hit you whether you are on a motorcycle, in a car, or just walking across the street. One can choose to live safely in bubble-wrap, but what kind of life would that be?

[antiant]

Originally Posted by kingkang204

I agree that if you look for something you'll be more likely to find it. However, I think to some degree we don't have control over what happens, meaning you cannot control the driver who swerves into your lane, but certainly you can be aware and prepared to do something about it. But have you ever thought what it would really be like to be without one of your legs, or perhaps have a different disability?

I have to add some humor to this, but this practically sums up my thoughts...

Link to original page on YouTube.

You're also right, you can't control everything and I'm definitely not going to worry about every little thing that I cannot control. You'll end up mind****ing yourself and giving yourself an ulcer. The issue to me is not at all about riding a motorcycle. I think it's funny how people think that one thing has greater risk than another thing. One has to ask, by what standard are they measuring these risks? Statistics? Well, statistics can say a lot of things and they can also negate a lot of things. Risk is also subjective. Anything can happen to you at any given time, at any given moment, no one is invincible.

The best way to look at risk in any form is to be aware that it exist, educate yourself as best as possible and within reason, then hope for the best. I could die today, tomorrow or 5 years from now by some "unknown variable." If you keep thinking about that "unknown variable," you'll never live life to the fullest because you live in fear and fear cripples a lot of people from living. Also, there are disabled people out there who do not let their disability hinder them, they still push to live. That kind of thing is called willpower, you either take life by the balls or life takes you by the balls. It's your mentality and what you do with it, that counts. If you look at the bigger picture, the "movers and shakers" of the world, the pioneers, the visionaries... they take risks, they push the envelope and it's that very reason why we are able to ride a motorcycle to this day. Think about that for a second. If it wasn't for risks, progress would cease to exist, so it's twofold.

Lastly, I close with the philosopher Epicurus, "Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

[tfkrocks]

If you always think of the worst case scenario, then you might as well just not live. Driving a car is ridiculously dangerous. Many seemingly ordinary activities can be dangerous. I just try to be as cautious as I can and then don't think about the worst case scenario.

[algs26]

I don't know how accurate this site is (came up on google) but it has some infographics:

http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

I wonder how actuarians live?

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by the_little_one

You have some deep questions for such a young man, and the fact that you are even thinking about this will make you a better rider.
There are risks just living everyday, and a reckless driver can hit you whether you are on a motorcycle, in a car, or just walking across the street. One can choose to live safely in bubble-wrap, but what kind of life would that be?

Originally Posted by antiant

I have to add some humor to this, but this practically sums up my thoughts...

Link to original page on YouTube.

You're also right, you can't control everything and I'm definitely not going to worry about every little thing that I cannot control. You'll end up mind****ing yourself and giving yourself an ulcer. The issue to me is not at all about riding a motorcycle. I think it's funny how people think that one thing has greater risk than another thing. One has to ask, by what standard are they measuring these risks? Statistics? Well, statistics can say a lot of things and they can also negate a lot of things. Risk is also subjective. Anything can happen to you at any given time, at any given moment, no one is invincible.

The best way to look at risk in any form is to be aware that it exist, educate yourself as best as possible and within reason, then hope for the best. I could die today, tomorrow or 5 years from now by some "unknown variable." If you keep thinking about that "unknown variable," you'll never live life to the fullest because you live in fear and fear cripples a lot of people from living. Also, there are disabled people out there who do not let their disability hinder them, they still push to live. That kind of thing is called willpower, you either take life by the balls or life takes you by the balls. It's your mentality and what you do with it, that counts. If you look at the bigger picture, the "movers and shakers" of the world, the pioneers, the visionaries... they take risks, they push the envelope and it's that very reason why we are able to ride a motorcycle to this day. Think about that for a second. If it wasn't for risks, progress would cease to exist, so it's twofold.

Lastly, I close with the philosopher Epicurus, "Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

I agree, perhaps I am just over-thinking the negatives. There are many inspiring, motivational people who have overcome adversity, I could only hope to be more like them.

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

If you always think of the worst case scenario, then you might as well just not live. Driving a car is ridiculously dangerous. Many seemingly ordinary activities can be dangerous. I just try to be as cautious as I can and then don't think about the worst case scenario.

Originally Posted by algs26

I don't know how accurate this site is (came up on google) but it has some infographics:

http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

I wonder how actuarians live?

I think all of you are right, perhaps I've over-thought the negatives. Maybe once I get on a bike again, it will really remind me of what riding is to me.

[Motofool]

Ignoring the risks is not the way; you have to know as much as possible about them (including statistics), about crashes, about wounds, about accidents.
That is only the first step to avoid and minimize them during years of motorcycling.

http://www.bikesafer.com/ultradefensive.html

Some related quotes from Chuck Yeager:

"I was always afraid of dying. Always. It was my fear that made me learn everything I could about my airplane and my emergency equipment, and kept me flying respectful of my machine and always alert in the cockpit."

"If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know when to push it, and when to back off."

"Never wait for trouble."

"There's no such thing as a natural-born pilot."

"You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can't, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don't give up."

"You don't concentrate on risks. You concentrate on results. No risk is too great to prevent the necessary job from getting done."

Read more about this pilot here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Yeager

[Whiskey]

Everyone dies eventually, keep your eyes open & your brain in gear to reduce the risks on a bike, but you could be hit by a bus walking down the road or keel over from an undiagnosed arrythmia tomorrow.

[lgk]

well i was trying to think of something profound to say.... but you guys pretty much covered it.


don't let fear consume your soul, otherwise you will end up with a life of mediocrity and sadness. it is pure mental hell, and a waste of great potential...

do what you want to do, live life on your terms.
if riding makes you happy then take steps so you can keep doing it and get better at it.

[Aufitt]

40 yrs of riding, 30 on the road, 20 racing offroad,
horrific hit and run done on me almost 20 yrs ago,
never fully came to terms with road riding since.

gave up road riding for good and took to the track (only) 18 months ago

problem solved, road riding gives me no joy,
on the track you can push as hard as you are capable,
those 7x15 minute sessions once a month are worth a year of riding.

It fills the void and SO much more.

[kingkang204]

I really appreciate everyones input. The consensus I am gathering is that:

We should understand the risks of riding, and do our best to mitigate any damages, but we shouldn't let the fear of possibility deter us from the things we want to do.

[checho323]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I don't watch crashes, I don't post or read about crashes, I don't think about crashes, I ride like my life depends on it and I ride like everyone is out to kill me. It has worked for over 40 years for me.

Same here, but I've only ridden for 4 years.

[JustRidin]

I've thought heavily about this before and since having bought my motorcycle. I'll admit some days I think for a moment that it might not be worth the risk, but I always come back to the phrase "Die living, or live dying".

Everything in life has risks, some more than others sure. We all do our own risk analysis and mitigation everyday. Look both ways before you cross the street etc. For me the enjoyment I get from riding far outweighs the risk. On the other hand though extreme downhill snowboarding would be out of my comfort zone. We all just have to accept some risk in order to live some of life's best moments. Still, don't be stupid no matter what you're doing.

[kirk595x]

I've Raced Off Road and MX for many years and always knew the risks but I also knew my limits and pushed them cautiously...I've had injuries but nothing too serious. On the streets I'm much more cautious but you can't ride in fear, It's you against them...Ride defensiely, Don't ride over your head, Ride smart!! If you want to go balls out then go to a track. I know what the dangers are and potential after effects but I don't think about it. I can watch crash videos but I use it as a learning tool...I disect it to see what went wrong and use it as a reminder so i don't get too relaxed on the road!

[250rr]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Ignoring the risks is not the way; you have to know as much as possible about them (including statistics), about crashes, about wounds, about accidents.
That is only the first step to avoid and minimize them during years of motorcycling.

http://www.bikesafer.com/ultradefensive.html

Some related quotes from Chuck Yeager:

"I was always afraid of dying. Always. It was my fear that made me learn everything I could about my airplane and my emergency equipment, and kept me flying respectful of my machine and always alert in the cockpit."

"If you want to grow old as a pilot, you've got to know when to push it, and when to back off."

"Never wait for trouble."

"There's no such thing as a natural-born pilot."

"You do what you can for as long as you can, and when you finally can't, you do the next best thing. You back up but you don't give up."

"You don't concentrate on risks. You concentrate on results. No risk is too great to prevent the necessary job from getting done."

Read more about this pilot here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Yeager

Mr. Yeager. One of my heros. Amazing guy!

[voidrider]

There is a lot of good thoughts and advice here. I have only a small snippet to add.

My wife has taken the Team Oregon (our State's version of MSF), has a nice Honda 150 Elite scooter with which she commuted to college, and some work. She has pretty much given upon street riding, as her vision isn't great, and we've found that she has very little peripheral vision. Even with her head on a swivel she gets worried about "what she might not be seeing". Riding for the most part is more stress than fun anymore for her.

But, at a teenager she remembered fun she had with riding a small off-road bike. She isn't interested in track riding ( which also mitigates the issues of street traffic). Depending on where you are, perhaps off road riding would be another alternative? Locally there are paved highways in remote areas where I have seen only 2-3 cars in several hours of riding...get onto some of the forest service roads and you really have them pretty much to yourself.

That may work out for her, but if not, she does enjoy and trust my vision and riding ability as a passenger.

[eddiekay]

I found the premise of sacrificing strange...un familiar.
Riding, IMHO is more like a choice...you can do it once, or do it a thousand times but it's never the only choice.

[Daks]

For every instance someone is killed in a crash, how many are they not? There are people who go their whole lives without crashing once. And then some have done low speed ones, rather non-eventful crashes, etc.

I have "crashed' twice and one was a lady turning into my path doing maybe 15 and the other was shooting a corner too hot at ~40mph. Both I walked away from with at worst a bruised knee and ego. They're not all gnarly.

Riding is like many things in life....best measured by the time it is lived.

You either have the chance to sacrifice your life because of riding or the certainty of sacrificing a life of riding for a chance at surviving everything else.
Maybe today someone didn't slip down their steps and hit their head hard enough to kill them because they put on riding gear instead of slippery-soled shoes. But nothing like that can really be measured.

[Live2ride]

Last week I came across the "no prisoners 2012" video on YouTube. It's filled to the brim with 76 minutes of motorcycle crashes. I found myself watching more and more of it each day and eventually finished the entire video on the third day. I regularly browse YouTube for new motorcycle crashes every week and I don't plan on stopping. There is knowledge to be gained by watching these videos; after a while I began diagnosing the crashes and most were due to rider error in one way or another. I believe the knowledge gained from watching others mistakes is extremely valuable both in and outside the motorcycling world. It's important to me that I constantly remind myself of the dangers of riding and I'm no longer afraid of them. When I meet a fellow rider I can see immediately whether or not he or she has come to terms with the fact that we could die at any moment. Reguardless of the fact that we could die anyday from a million different scenarios, I choose to ride on. If I die, I want it to be whilst doing something I love.

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I ride like my life depends on it and I ride like everyone is out to kill me. It has worked for over 40 years for me.

gonna try to live by that for sure!

[eddiekay]

yeah....cc got it right. Everybody is out to kill you... whether they know it or not. Got "touched" by a guy in an altima approaching a toll booth at 3mph...in same lane as me for 30 or 40 seconds,,,elbow to face and he didnt see me. Everybody has these stories

[fishdip]

I know long worry about this thanks to stimcell they can now grow back all my limbs.

[adouglas]

Approaching it from the perspective of sacrifice presupposes that a major crash will happen. I don't view life that way. Might as well stay in bed if that's the way you look at the world.

What are you willing to sacrifice to have that slice of pizza? Good coronary health in later life? Do you reaaly want a future heart attack?

What are you willing to sacrifice to go out to a restaurant? Freedom from exposure to risks ranging from food poisoning to mugging and identity theft?

How about that beer? Are you willing to get cirrhosis?

You'll always be safer if you never expose yourself to potential hazards. Guess what... you're gonna die anyway. Nobody gets out of this joint alive. So you can live life fully and enjoy yourself, or head on down to the bunker and live in fear of what might happen, hoping to last a few more years than the next guy.

I'm on the wrong side of middle age. I've got fewer years in front of me than I have behind me. When you personally realize that this is the case, every day becomes more precious. I'll be damned if I'm going to live in fear of all the bad things that might happen. Carpe diem (or as the fisherman said, "Carpe carp").

I'm with those above who consider it a risk/reward question. I do all I can to manage the risk so that the accident is less likely to happen. I wear a neon green helmet so I can be seen. I ride well within my limits. I ride defensively. I do not engage in needlessly risky behavior. I'm not only ATGATT, but I wear full leathers with good armor every time I get on the bike.

At the end of the day it's a personal decision. I used to be a whitewater kayaker. I made a deliberate decision to give it up because I had one too many "I saw God" moments. The equation tipped too far towards risk for me, so I turned to other things.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

............I'm on the wrong side of middle age. I've got fewer years in front of me than I have behind me. When you personally realize that this is the case, every day becomes more precious. I'll be damned if I'm going to live in fear of all the bad things that might happen. Carpe diem (or as the fisherman said, "Carpe carp")...........

Very good post, Douglas !!!

I am a proud member of your club.

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." ― Mark Twain

Carpe diem:
This is really a tragedy of modern times: due to remorse, hate and fear, most persons live in an imaginary world, past or future, missing the present completely.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

If you find yourself riding too fast for the street then it's time for the track.

speaking of which are you coming up for the 6/19 track day? ride the bumpy road course at the loudon (as they say)

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Motofool

If you decide riding, you have to be ready to pay the ultimate price.

The verb above could be changed to anything...driving, rock climbing, sky diving, swimming, hell, walking up a flight of stairs. Living life comes with risks. Read Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. Awesome street smarts to think about in that book. Ultimately, I'd rather die living than die waiting for death to find me on my sofa in front of the tv.

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

It's hard to say for the street but as a racer for many years you live more in 5 minutes at 200 mph then most do in a lifetime.

This. Though I'm not a racer, riding the track is where I found a zen like none I've ever experienced. To me, THAT is living.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by kingkang204

I agree that if you look for something you'll be more likely to find it. However, I think to some degree we don't have control over what happens, meaning you cannot control the driver who swerves into your lane, but certainly you can be aware and prepared to do something about it.

You can be ready for him to swerve if you expect everyone on the road to behave that way. They don't see you. You're invisible. Ride like it and expect the unexpected.

Originally Posted by adouglas

How about that beer? Are you willing to get cirrhosis?

Yes.