Jumping ship in 2015 - Yamaha R25/R3

[choneofakind]

So you're adjusting values in the throttle vs fuel table. And that throttle vs fuel map is being run through the ecu's programming. In order to deliver the fuel mixture you want, it's also considering other variables like engine parameters and atmospheric conditions (some listed above). There's more than one table of numbers that your ecu is functioning off of. There's actually lots of them. It's a computerized control system running a real life thing. The thing (engine in this case) and environment has to be defined by equations and tables and sensors and lots of data.

Go read a little about control systems and how different types of inputs affect system response. Not only is there a physical side to throttle response (the engine physically revving up), there's an electrical side (control system response). To speed up the overall response, the control system response can be improved or slowed by adjusting the input.

But we're really OT here. We're getting into control systems in a thread about Yamaha

[mania]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Not only is there a physical side to throttle response (the engine physically revving up), there's an electrical side (control system response). To speed up the overall response, the control system response can be improved or slowed by adjusting the input.

But we're really OT here. We're getting into control systems in a thread about Yamaha

Yes I guess OT but its all good.
Maybe someone will open another thread & discuss this?
I find all of these things interesting & even if not available on the Ninja 250/300? I would be interested in reading more about such systems

Of course I am aware of the system I tinker heavily with as previously mentioned & also aware of ignition advance systems
but would be interesting reading about these other electrical response systems you mentioned.

Thanks

[choneofakind]

Google "control systems". There's entire textbooks written on controls. Its 2 semesters worth of classes for most engineers.


Yes, any fuel injected bike is run by a control system. That's what I'm telling you. Ecu is the controller. There's inputs and outputs. There's a control system running the anti locks. There's a control system running the cruise control in your car.

[Somchai]

@Whiskey, here I have some links for you where you can see that it's possible to reduce the power down to at least 13 kw (18 hp) - its all in German, maybe use a translator.
http://www.alphatechnik.de/produkte/...gen/25-kw.html
http://www.alphatechnik.de/produkte/...-kw-48-ps.html
http://www.alphatechnik.de/produkte/...n/7072-kw.html

@mania - maybe this is interesting for you: http://ecuhacking.activeboard.com/t5...-reflash-done/
and here's the software for it: http://www.evc.de/en/download/down_winols.asp - download the manual and take a look how it's done, you can see it's all in Hexdump, so not easy to understand and the price for the software is 30,000 Euro.

[mania]

Originally Posted by Somchai

@mania - maybe this is interesting for you:

Thanks! Very interesting & Nice specific site as I see he has done my bike.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Somchai

[MENTIO117]Whiskey, here I have some links for you where you can see that it's possible to reduce the power down to at least 13 kw (18 hp) - its all in German, maybe use a translator.
http://www.alphatechnik.de/produkte/...gen/25-kw.html
http://www.alphatechnik.de/produkte/...-kw-48-ps.html
http://www.alphatechnik.de/produkte/...n/7072-kw.html

@mania - maybe this is interesting for you: http://ecuhacking.activeboard.com/t5...-reflash-done/
and here's the software for it: http://www.evc.de/en/download/down_winols.asp - download the manual and take a look how it's done, you can see it's all in Hexdump, so not easy to understand and the price for the software is 30,000 Euro.

Technically it's possible, legally it's not. You would need the full A licence to ride one even at 13 bhp, as the stock bike makes over double the A2's power limit.

A learner can't start with the restricted supersport after the new laws were introduced.

I know one mechanic that dialed a FJR or Busa (I don't remember which) down to 33bhp by FI washers & a throttle stop... It had 1.4mm throttle movement.

The new laws eliminate that kind of nonsense.

@mania Europe got FI bikes from the start. My 08 is FI, it's down to other EU laws on emissions

[akima]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

I know one mechanic that dialed a FJR or Busa (I don't remember which) down to 33bhp by FI washers & a throttle stop... It had 1.4mm throttle movement.

Do you mean mm? Or cm? If you mean mm... that's frickin' mental! What if you sneezed while riding that thing?

[Xtina]

New R3 revealed in as little as a week.
http://global.yamaha-motor.com/showr.../teaser_en.php

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by akima

Do you mean mm? Or cm? If you mean mm... that's frickin' mental! What if you sneezed while riding that thing?

millimetres. one point four millimetres, looked it up on the other forum, it was an R1 & after the owner's licence expired (10 year licence in ROI), it had to be renewed within 5 or back to the drawing board, the bloke forgot about it completely.

Apparently same was done on a 05 fireblade, valves on the throttle bodies barely move.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Technically it's possible, legally it's not.

Do I have to understand this as you're thinking you stand above the german law?

[Sirref]

most people break laws at some point or another anyway.

[ninja250r81]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

In Oz we have LAMS,
basically 150kw/tonne including 90kg rider and limit of 660cc.
So all the cbr250rr, zxr, fzr etc are included along with the 400's and boring heavy restricted 600's & 650's

Excludes RGV, NSR TZR 250 which were allowed under the old 250 system that LAMS replaced.

Europe has the 125's , that's why the manufacturers make them.
Because of lams we get the 390's and a lot of other small bikes that come downunder.

Stops noobs buying 600 & 1000cc supersports for the first year an the associated carnage.

Im with Aufitt.

My view, a perfect all round bike with highway capable, around town, and can beat 600's with the right rider etc is the ZXR400.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_ZXR400

If the YZF-R125 is $6999 aud

http://www.bikesales.com.au/showroom...0237FD5&Nne=15

If the yamaha went on sale in aussie it would be around 10k - 12k aud

Not at all affordable for the learner rider

[Aufitt]

Originally Posted by ninja250r81

If the YZF-R125 is $6999 aud

http://www.bikesales.com.au/showroom...0237FD5&Nne=15

If the yamaha went on sale in aussie it would be around 10k - 12k aud

Not at all affordable for the learner rider

The 250/300 is much lower spec than the 2014 125.
It will be cheaper, but hopefully better than the 20 year old Ninja commuter design)

[sidekick10121]

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/auto-n...ch-25th-86994/

According to this the countdown clock is getting close to 0 an it's supposed to be the release of the two in India an the USA.

My question is regarding design (being new to
Motorcycles)

Why would the 300 be a one cylinder and the 250 be a two cylinder design. Does the dual offer more performance and higher torque? And do they use a single to keep over heads down hence a lower msrp?

[GHill762]

any speculation at this point is just that - speculation..

I personally doubt yam will put a single cylinder in a 300, but we'll see.. we don't know for sure yet they are even making an r3..

my guess is that the 250 and 300 will be identical other than CCs, longer stroke or bigger bore 250 for the markets that aren't restricted to 249cc.. that way they can compete with kawasaki and still get into markets with cc restrictions..

and it's possible it won't matter at all to us in the US because they've talked like they have no interest in bringing little bikes to the states..

[Sirref]

They answered your question in the article a bit but I'll go into it a bit more because why not.

I personally think that a parallel twin engine layout is the way yamaha should go with their 300 if they bring it stateside as a 250cc parallel twin is more fun than a 300cc thumper. However, it is a move that would make sense. A single cylinder engine costs less to make, is easier to service, makes more sense to a beginner rider, has more torque for everyday riding and with 300ccs honda has proven that a single cylinder engine does have adequate power (cbr300rr has roughly the same hp as the ninja 250 and more torque) despite losing out to the ninja 300 in power due to it's parallel twin layout. Furthermore single cylinders get better gas mileage, which is a huge reason for people to invest in a smaller cc bike with commuting in mind.
Hell what would blow everyone's mind is that off chance that the R3 turns out to be a triple engine! that would be pretty awesome even though it's probably not happening.

[Ducati999]

What Sirref said Exactly! the only thing to add is the Tripple Cyl motor is the least likely configuration but he is right it would be incredible. 300cc single, 300cc twin and a 300cc triple= small cc buffett

[Sirref]

I'd be tempted to trade in for the Yamaha if they did that...tempted

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Do I have to understand this as you're thinking you stand above the german law?

I don't get what you're asking.

Is English your main language?

It's an EU directive, think of it like a federal law, it superceeds national laws, and must be transcribed into each member state's law. It changed the law in my home country, the country I live in now, Germany's law & every one of the 27 EU states laws.

Technically it is possible to restrict the airflow, throttle movement, or fuel injector's map to reduce the power output of a 2014 GSXR600 from 92.5kW to 35kW (48 bhp).

To ride that bike legally anywhere in Europe (including in Germany) you must posses a full "A" class licence, you may not ride it on an "A2" class licence, which has the restriction of 35kW and can not be derived from a vehicle of more than double it's power. Both conditions must be met.

If you get a Gixxer 600, dial it down to 48 bhp & ride it on an A2 licence or learner's permit in Germany and happen to get pulled over for any reason the German police will impound the bike & leave you standing at the side of the road.

I have a full "A" class licence, I can ride whatever bike I like, completely legally, as long as it's insured.

If that's not clear to you please pick the specific point you do not understand, highlight it in BOLD and I will try to explain it to you another way.

If you've been out of the country for a few years you may not be aware of the new rules, they were changed in January 2013

Wikipedia link

[JohnnyBravo]

The 650 is an ugly bike!!! It doesn't matter what you say, it's ugly

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

I don't get what you're asking.

Is English your main language?

It's an EU directive, think of it like a federal law, it superceeds national laws, and must be transcribed into each member state's law. It changed the law in my home country, the country I live in now, Germany's law & every one of the 27 EU states laws.

Technically it is possible to restrict the airflow, throttle movement, or fuel injector's map to reduce the power output of a 2014 GSXR600 from 92.5kW to 35kW (48 bhp).

To ride that bike legally anywhere in Europe (including in Germany) you must posses a full "A" class licence, you may not ride it on an "A2" class licence, which has the restriction of 35kW and can not be derived from a vehicle of more than double it's power. Both conditions must be met.

If you get a Gixxer 600, dial it down to 48 bhp & ride it on an A2 licence or learner's permit in Germany and happen to get pulled over for any reason the German police will impound the bike & leave you standing at the side of the road.

I have a full "A" class licence, I can ride whatever bike I like, completely legally, as long as it's insured.

If that's not clear to you please pick the specific point you do not understand, highlight it in BOLD and I will try to explain it to you another way.

If you've been out of the country for a few years you may not be aware of the new rules, they were changed in January 2013

Wikipedia link

To answer your question, I'm German and I also have been working in the Automotive business, so I know about the rules and clearly understand what the German law is talking about and in this case you better forget about the EU-Dictatorship.
Many young german rider don't start with a small bike like the Ninja or others like this, because this would be a waste of money when they want to ride a bigger one after the 2 years of the A2-License, so they already get the big bike and mount the Kit to have 48 hp.
After the kit is mounted they have to go to the TUV to get this registered in the bikes documents and from this moment on this bike is a total legal 48 hp A2-Licensed bike.
After the two years they get the A-License, take off the kit, go to the TUV again to get the original power written back in the documents and have an i.e. 200 hp GSX-R1000 - this is the German way and never mind about the EU - THIS IS LEGAL.

[Alex]

Somchai - everything I'm seeing online contradicts your above posts. Are you sure your views are completely up to date? It may have used to work that way, but if Germany is using the A2 license structure, there is clear wording in what A2 means that does not allow the bike to be downtuned by more than half of its original power.

[ChrisMKV]

I was looking into the same topic some time ago, so I can perhaps provide some insight.

The EU law does state that for the A2 License, if the bike is more powerful than 35kw it must be restricted to 35kw. The restriction is not allowed to be more than 50% of the bike's total power. (So you cannot get an R1 and restrict it on A2).

There are two notable countries with exceptions to this law:

- France: All bikes are restricted to 106hp anyways (poor guys)
- Germany: In Germany, the 50% rule is not applied! meaning that R1 could theoretically be ridden on an A2 if successfully restricted to 35kw.

Source:

Die EU-Regelung, wonach das zu drosselnde Motorrad nicht um mehr als 50% gedrosselt werden darf, wird von Deutschland nicht umgesetzt. Somit ist die 35-kW-Drosselung auch gültig für Motorräder, die mit mehr als 70 kW angeboten werden.

http://www.adac.de/_mmm/pdf/neuer%20...0KB_161409.pdf

EDIT: However, there is also a max power-to-weight ratio so that R1 may after all not be possible.

[Whiskey]

I'll take your word for it, but I've not seen a single English language source mentioning a German exception to the new licencing rules.

How many Panzer divisions on their way to Brussels did it take to get that exception

[Somchai]

Thank you @Alex for reminding me that I'd stop on the half way with my description.
Special Thanks to @ChrisMKV for bringing up the link, here's another one: http://www.haensle.de/news/172
@Whiskey the Panzer is Merkel...
I don't know what country you're from, but please remember the language in the free country Germany is german and not english, so you must never find anything in english. That's why I'd ask you about your german knowledge. I also with my little english knowledge would not talk about american or british laws.

[Ninjette Newsbot]

YAMAHA has finally pulled the covers of the production version of the YZF-R25.

The quarter-litre sports bike makes 35.5hp and 16.7lbft from a parallel-twin 249cc engine.

It's got a steel frame and weighs 166kg.

It's just been unveiled in Indonesia, where Yamaha is billing it as the 'baby YZR-M1', after the factory's MotoGP bike.

The R25 was first unveiled as a concept with no lights at the Tokyo Motor Show in November, but this is the first time official images of a production version have been seen.

The Indonesian-built R25 will go on sale in Asia in July. A 300cc R3 version is expected to follow for Europe, although Yamaha is staying tight-lipped on the subject.

Over here it will go up against Kawasaki's Ninja 300 and Honda's forthcoming CBR300R, and on paper it looks competitive. Even without the extra 50cc, it's not far behind the Ninja 300, which makes 29hp and 19.9lbft.

Honda's CBR300, production of which has been postponed, makes a claimed 30.4hp with 19.9lbft.

The R25 will go on sale in Indonesia for 53million Rupiah (£2,756), slightly more than the local price of the CBR250R but less than the Ninja 250R.



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[SMman]

I am thinking about selling my Suzuki DR-Z400SM and was planning to get a KTM Duke 390, which never showed up in Canada this year like I hoped. I have been looking at some very cheap leftover 2013 CBR250Rs but this Yamaha has me second guessing the Honda purchase. Question still remains when it will make it to North America, but maybe it will be worth the wait.

[crazymadbastard]

Hmm, I think Mom Kawasaki may have to drop her going rate for a 250/300.

[SMman]

More info and pics here:
http://indianautosblog.com/2014/05/y...aunched-130723

[choneofakind]

WOOOOO!!! daddy needs a new small sporty motorcycle next summer. Let's get this R3 show on the road in the good 'ole USA.

[psych0hans]

This should be a fun little bike... Don't much care for the front looks tho...

[Alex]

/merged a few R25 threads

[subxero]

35 hp from a 250 twin budget bike... ill believe it when i see it.

Even if numbers are legit it will be some what comparable to ninja300 output with less torque.

^this is where price points come into play for me.

[Sirref]

mmm, I like it. looks aggressive enough to be mistaken for a bigger bike and it seems to be competitive in the class. I like how our quarter liter class is shaping up yamaha

@subxero there's also the suspension part of the equation, it was advertised before with high end suspension and braking bits but I don't really see those now. If I'm just blind then it's not a big deal but if it has comparative (albeit less) power than the N300 with better suspension and brakes out of the box then it will definitely be a great package.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by subxero

35 hp from a 250 twin budget bike... ill believe it when i see it.

I'm betting on that as the power at the crank, not the wheel. I'd bet the wheel's more like 29. Remember that asian dyno's are always hopeful.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I'm betting on that as the power at the crank, not the wheel. I'd bet the wheel's more like 29. Remember that asian dyno's are always hopeful.

I'd be willing to bet that it still has more power than the ninja 250 at the wheel

[CC Cowboy]

Too much power for me. Whoever needs that much HP is asking for trouble.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by subxero

35 hp from a 250 twin budget bike... ill believe it when i see it.

Even if numbers are legit it will be some what comparable to ninja300 output with less torque.

^this is where price points come into play for me.

I believe it. Just look at their specs for the WR250X.



Yamaha made their single cylinder pump out 27 HP and 16.7 Ft/lbs of torque. I have no doubts that they will not get close to 35.5 HP and 16.7 ft/lbs out of a "budget" parallel twin. And I'd be willing to bet it will have valve clearance checks every 20k-ish like their WR250R/X which is every 26,600 mi. I at least hope so!

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Too much power for me. Whoever needs that much HP is asking for trouble.

I am pretty sure the starter motor on your bike has more hp/tq than our ninjettes.

[psych0hans]

Am I the only one who's disappointed at how different it is from the prototype?