Using rear brake.....

[drac]

Didn't want to keep hijacking another thread so I started this one....

Can you guys give me reasons you have heard that make it a bad idea to use the rear brake during a panic stop. Is it just the whole highside thing?

[Jiggles]

Subscribed

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by drac

It is mostly impossible. I can't tell you how many panic situations I have been in and in almost every case I locked up the rear at some point during the stop/slow down. When the rear locks you have to release then reapply. It should not be something you think about. It should be second nature. It takes years of practice.

Thought I'd grab this little nugget. This is actually exactly what you don't want to do. If you lock up the rear you are supposed to just ride it out, it's more dangerous to release the rear with your wheels out of alignment than to ride the skid to a stop. This is taught in the MSF. If you lock the front you release and reapply, if you lock the rear, you keep on it.

[xSean13]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Thought I'd grab this little nugget. This is actually exactly what you don't want to do. If you lock up the rear you are supposed to just ride it out, it's more dangerous to release the rear with your wheels out of alignment than to ride the skid to a stop. This is taught in the MSF. If you lock the front you release and reapply, if you lock the rear, you keep on it.

[etiainen]

At 5mph, that won't do anything.

At 50mph, pretty sure doing that is asking for a highside.

[drac]

WOW...that is taught at the MSF. Never heard of such a thing. Sounds kinda wacky to me but if that is what they teach go with it.

As 5 vs 50mph.......I have certainly had my backend step out at speed and didn't have an issue. Again this is just one mans experience. Take it for what you will.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by drac

WOW...that is taught at the MSF. Never heard of such a thing. Sounds kinda wacky to me but if that is what they teach go with it.

[xSean13]

I took the MSF course last month and they concurred. Ride out a back tire skid, as jiggles said, if it gains traction & isn't in line with the front tire, then it could/would result in a high side.

[drac]

So now this raises an interesting question. Mind you they didnt have MSF when I started riding but something has struck me. They teach you not to let off the rear brake if the back end gets a little loose and you guys are quoting that as gospel. Yet they also teach you to use BOTH brakes during a panic stop but you guys don't do that............How exactley did you guys decide which lesson to follow and which to ignore?????????????????.......................

[Jiggles]

Proper braking technique is to use both brakes, which I'm sure a lot of us do during normal stops. During a panic, you can get overwhelmed with adrenaline and not be thinking clearly and stomp the rear brake putting it into a skid. It's an easy thing to do, you've done it many times yourself. For me, I'd rather have an engine braking rear than risk a locked rear in a panic stop, so I don't touch the rear brake under extreme braking. Also under extreme braking, all of your weight is shifting to the front tire which gives less braking power to the rear and makes it easier to lock.

Under heavy braking it's possible to have 90%-100% of your weight on the front tire (think stoppie, which would not be good) If you have 90% of the bikes weight on the front tire its going to leave very little traction for the rear. You already have the engine braking the rear tire, just a little more brake can lock it, that is why I prefer to use only the front brake under heavy/panic braking.

So, you have 90% weight on the front tire, and 10% weight on the rear tire. Your engine is braking the rear tire already, are you confident enough in your skills that you can maximize the braking potential of the rear without locking when it has that little traction? It's a very difficult thing to do and in my opinion, is not worth the risk of locking the back tire up, reducing braking power and increasing your chances of a lowside/highside.

[thisisbenji]

I usually gently press the back brake while emergency stopping. While squeezing the front brake progressively as hard as I dare. I'v occasionally locked the rear but it has always been ore of a very very brief hop than a full out lock.

[drac]

And how's that technique working out for you...................












I's a joke, it's a joke................I do things the exact opposite of you guys/MSF. I use my rear brake during panic stops and I will release it if I feel the backend getting squirrely. If you are more comfortable not using it then that's your guys choice.

By the way I do agree you are getting a decent amount of grip from engine braking but it is gear dependent. Aggressively riding in 3rd and letting off the throttle will help but if you are just cruising 55mph in 6th and roll off the thottle it wouldn't do much to help slow you down. That's why I advocate always using rear brake during panic stop. It will make the sops consistent..........By the way it is funny because I only use my rear brake during panic stops. Never use it for just normal riding.

[Jiggles]

You're one crazy guy drac haha

[drac]

........

[Alex]

There are a couple "rear brake?" threads linked from the main riding skills sticky at the top of this subforum:

Riding Skills Threads

[drac]

Controlled conditions, skilled rider, emergency stops from 60 mph. Front brake only = 151 feet. Rear brake only = 270+ feet. Front + rear brake = 146 feet. In other words, adding the perfect amount of rear braking force to the already perfect amount of front braking force shortened the distance by 3.4%. Not even 5%.

Thanks for the link......Interesting bit of info quoted above. It also mentions about Hayden using his rear brake more than most road racers due to his dirtbike background. Maybe it is the same for me. I raced MX for many years before I was old enough for street riding/racing. Maybe it is a carryover from my early years riding dirtbikes.

[FrugalNinja250]

I use both brakes. When the rear locks I just straighten out the bike and release it, then go back to braking with both brakes. Often times I can release it when I feel it starting to lock and just get a little jiggle, or nothing at all. I haven't done a full up sideways rear brake slide, may have to practice that sometime when I have a nearly worn out rear tire to finish off.

[Goom]

Originally Posted by drac

Thanks for the link......Interesting bit of info quoted above. It also mentions about Hayden using his rear brake more than most road racers due to his dirtbike background. Maybe it is the same for me. I raced MX for many years before I was old enough for street riding/racing. Maybe it is a carryover from my early years riding dirtbikes.

I can relate to this. Having ridden mx, I've learned to sort of control an out of control bike. I know that isn't going to make sense to a lot of people, but hopefully someone gets it. It is absolutely fine to let off the rear brake in a skid as long as you aren't in a sideways skid. Some people miss that detail. Once the rear has stepped out though, all you can do is adjust and ride it out. The key is quickly reacting to the skid. A lot of times the problem is that it isn't always easy to recognize a skid until the rear end starts sideways, but either way, as long as you keep cool and focused, you should be able to regain control or at least take the bike down more gently.

[Francis]

I've stopped using the rear brake on normal commuting rides and even backroad rides.

But when I feel like I have to do an emergency stop, I reach for the rear. I gotta stop that.

Front + rear is more effective at the moment for me because I'm not that great at braking yet. But if pros just use the rear since it can be used as 100% of stopping power, why is the rear being taught in MSF?

[Jiggles]

The rear is good for lowspeed maneuvers and also when you are on a sketchy surface. It's also good to use the rear during normal stops. However, sport bikes brakes have become so powerful that nearly all of your braking can be done with the front brake. Under heavy braking you have nearly all of your weight on the front tire, leaving almost no braking potential for the rear, making the rear easier to lock up. The ninja 250 can do stoppies stock. There was a little study down with some professional racers, using the rear brake allowed them to stop 3.6% faster, which ended up being a few feet. Is a few feet worth the risk of locking the rear? And if you lock the rear you will lose that 3.6% benefit.

The rear brake is still useful, just not for panic stops

[Francis]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

The rear is good for lowspeed maneuvers and also when you are on a sketchy surface. It's also good to use the rear during normal stops. However, sport bikes brakes have become so powerful that nearly all of your braking can be done with the front brake. Under heavy braking you have nearly all of your weight on the front tire, leaving almost no braking potential for the rear, making the rear easier to lock up. The ninja 250 can do stoppies stock. There was a little study down with some professional racers, using the rear brake allowed them to stop 3.6% faster, which ended up being a few feet. Is a few feet worth the risk of locking the rear? And if you lock the rear you will lose that 3.6% benefit.

The rear brake is still useful, just not for panic stops

Ahh, yes. I know they're useful for slowspeed maeuvers, which I use.

That's the reason why I don't use the rear. It's not worth the risk of locking it imo.

[alex.s]

rear brake is that friend that over-analyzes everything you say, gets emo and thinks you hate them because you made a joke, then tries to kill you in some weird murder/suicide sex triangle.

if you know how to talk to it, it can be a valuable friend. if you treat it like ****, it winds up throwing you in the river.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by drac

WOW...that is taught at the MSF. Never heard of such a thing. Sounds kinda wacky to me but if that is what they teach go with it.
.

Absolutely 100% correct logic. Stay on the back brake if it locks. Try it on a pedal bike. Grab the rear and lock it up and you'll feel how smooth the bike stays as the rear slides a bit. At higher speeds, regaining traction quickly if you let off is begging for a highside. All good riding experts will agree.
The front brake is the one you want to release and rebrake if you lock it up, as stated previously.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by drac

\............How exactley did you guys decide which lesson to follow and which to ignore?????????????????.......................

Weigh all of the possibilities and determine what works best the most often...experience is the best teacher, but reading riding books written by experienced riders/teachers/racers helps one determine what part of the watered-down MSF to "take as gospel".

Originally Posted by drac

\...........By the way it is funny because I only use my rear brake during panic stops. Never use it for just normal riding.

PS. Dude, that isn't cool. Are you serious? Show me one piece of research-based evidence that backs up this claim.

[drac]

PS. Dude, that isn't cool. Are you serious? Show me one piece of research-based evidence that backs up this claim.

Not sure what you are talking about. I only stated that I don't use the rear brake during normal riding.

[Kurosaki]

There's a rear brake on this bike?

[etiainen]

Nope there isn't.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

There's a rear brake on this bike?

Who's this!? lol

[Kurosaki]

I'm just some dude.

[etiainen]

I'm a dude too.

A front brake only dood.

[Kurosaki]

I like you.

And you have a Honda.

Let's be friends.

[Jiggles]

Careful Jim, I think he's a pedophile

[etiainen]

I pulled a FB weirdo and friended you.

Yay social networking.

[Solunatic]

I used to use my rear brake for panic stops when I had a tw200. It reduced my stopping distance slightly, and wasn't too easy to lock up. Practicing panic stops on the ninja 250 however, i realized that locking the rear was way too easy for my current abilities to use during a panic stop. My rear rotor is also fairly warped from the PO, so it goes from little brake, to FULL BRAKE! to little brake. At first I was hoping (not too seriously) for some sort of low tech ABS effect but no such luck! No good even for daily stopping use so now I only use front brake except on gravel, and then only lightly.
Turns out the ninjette is a fairly capable gravel machine if you're willing to risk dumping it, which i've not yet managed to do. And after pitching it sideways on gravel, the dirtbike feels as light as a BMX bike!

Also, it just occurs to me that maybe its not the warped rotor causing the pulsing in the brake? possibly a caliper piston problem?

[RyderRider15]

I'm not saying I do things the right way, however assuming I lock up my rear tire when coming to a stop light, I'll ease out of the lock until I regain traction. However if the back side of the bike is out too far I would hold the lock.

I think the main reason they tell you to hold a locked rear tire in MSF is because they assume you're too green not to be able to tell where the back of the bike is when sliding. If you KNOW the bike is still straight it'd be okay to release. If you KNOW the bikes ass is out too far, then hold the lock.

This is coming from someone who started riding in a dirt background, so of course I'm more risky(?) when it comes to things like this.



Also as far as not using the rear brake at all, I think this is a bad idea. Locking the front up is the fastest way to find your face smacking the ground before you even know you've been in a crash. That few feet might also make a difference in a panic stop which is why you should use any braking you can when stopping. If you lock up your rear its not REALLY that big of a deal, you're bike will stay up if the rear is locked (unlike the front) just hold it and brake as normal in the front.

[Jiggles]

^ Try that while you take a **** in your pants. The only way you will lock up the front is if you grab too much of it, and if you do that, your not in control of the bike enough to be able to differentiate when the rear is locked and sliding out or not.

[etiainen]

I prefer not to soil myself while riding.

Only afterwards.

[RyderRider15]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

^ Try that while you take a **** in your pants. The only way you will lock up the front is if you grab too much of it, and if you do that, your not in control of the bike enough to be able to differentiate when the rear is locked and sliding out or not.

Oh I have lol. Not too long ago while doing a bank run at work I found myself in a panic braking situation. Was wet and a car pulled out who wasn't looking. Locked up my rear (which idk I'm able to tell easily, guess not all can) and was able to safely ease off and reapply. When I say safely I mean the bike didn't get upset by me unlocking the back.

I use to lock up my rear tire for fun in the dirt so idk, I'm more comfortable with the rear being locked up and swinging out. As long as the bike is moving in a straight line it's not going to low/high side or anything if you keep it locked. The forward motion of the bike will keep pulling the rear tire back in line if it gets out too far. You could think of it like pulling something like a string. If you were to take your other hand while pulling it from the front, and moved the back end of the string out, it'd be pull back in line, and its the same way on a bike. The forward motion pulls it back in line and you won't high/low side as long as you're moving straight. However if you were turning and the rear loses grip or w/e you WILL high/low side because the gravity will pull the bike out from under you, or it will catch and flick the back throwing you off the bike. (to make sure there is no confusion.)

To add to what you said in your OP, do you really think you can manage changing gears etc to keep engine braking applied while in a panic stop but not a simple single lever? Seems easier to pull the clutch in and use the rear to me. Which is also what they teach you in MSF. Its okay to use the rear brake, its not going to bite (if you're moving straight that is) :3

[Jiggles]

The engine continues to brake no matter what RPM you are at, so no, I wouldn't be down shifting, hell I wouldnt want to, I wouldnt want more braking force on a back tire that only has 10% of the bikes weight holding it on the ground.

I use my rear brake all the time (well not really anymore) except for in a panic situation

[RyderRider15]

Not meaning to shoot myself in the foot about rear braking, but I found this in my recommended videos on youtube lol

Link to original page on YouTube.