To those with a 250 and a 600/1000, hows the front braking power?

[Runeknight95]

I feel that the front braking power of the 250 is not in a 70/30 90/10 etc ratio that we are lead to believe. I feel like I always need to add rear brake. Does anyone else feel this way on their 250 that has ridden other bikes? I don't think my front brakes are bad they aren't spongy or anything new fluid less than 6 months ago.

[Motofool]

For regular street riding, I only use the front brake of my 2007 Ninja 250.
I practice emergency braking regularly, again, only using the front brake.

[csmith12]

Something may be not right, my braking feel on a 250 is damn near that on a my r6. Both crazy late and hard, enough to raise the rear. Rotor glazed? How is your brake line? Still stock? And no, I aint talkin' bout endos and stunts, this is straight up corner entry braking.

[dcj13]

Pre-gen Ninjette brakes are adequate.

My BMW K75 std (750cc old man bike with stock Brembo calipers) has much more responsive, better feeling, better stopping brakes.

KLR250 brakes are not as good as Ninjette brakes.

[sharky nrk]

my front brake on the street bike if AWFUL!!!!! Stainless lines and Galfer pads on the track bike are better but still not great. At the end of a session there is a decent bit of wasted movement at the lever. Its been bled 900 times, rotor cleaned, pads bedded. There is just a bit of slot between the master and caliper flex. I feels NOTHING like my 6R setup in terms of precision. Maybe you got a Wednesday master and I got a Friday master Chris, or the R6 bits are not as good as the 6Rs (could be cause they are VERY good). Outright stopping power is decent though, as is bite once upgraded.

[csmith12]

Neil, I am a freak about break feel. You almost have to be in order to have "real" confidence in your stopping power. Let's face it, deep down... your not gunna feel all that good about ridin' beyond your ability to stop.

My pregen brakes really sucked when I first got it, I kept at it until I liked what I felt. I recommend everyone else do the same. Even if you have to replace the whole lot.



My brakes are Friday!

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Neil, I am a freak about break feel. You almost have to be in order to have "real" confidence in your stopping power. Let's face it, deep down... your not gunna feel all that good about ridin' beyond your ability to stop.

My pregen brakes really sucked when I first got it, I kept at it until I liked what I felt. I recommend everyone else do the same. Even if you have to replace the whole lot.

Yeah but its within limits too. I mean the rule book limits you to some degree on what you can do. Stock master and stock caliper, if required, have their limits. I would agree to keep working through rotors and pads as necessary and to stay on top of what you have (clean slide pins, seals, etc.) to make it the best you can.

Its not necessarily applicable to this thread (if they are that bad then there is likely an issue), but if you have a stock master/caliper and it feels as good as a modern 600 setup ...... I wanna know your secret lol

[csmith12]

I am running stock stuff aside of lines and pads, I feel ya about da rulez.

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

I wanna know your secret lol

A rubber hose and a 20oz mt dew bottle.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

A rubber hose and a 20oz mt dew bottle.

I had 7UP

[Finesse]

My 99 250 had front Galfer rotor and Galfer semi metallic brake pads.... braked like a champ, no issues. It's not the sharpest, smoothest, most stunningly effective brake but it WILL stop the bike quick. my 03 SV650 brakes even better up front with dual rotors and fresh fluid and stainless steel lines.. almost too much brake! very even, smooth, and effective...

But when I got my SV the brake sucked. It took a lot of pull to get the brake to bite, and when it did, it was in stages. I flushed and replaced the fluid which helped but then a couple weeks later it started feeling crappy again, so I worried there was an air leak in the lines.. but then I put some lube in the brake lever pivot and it made a HUGE difference. Since then I've had awesome brakes, sometimes I brake hard coming up to a stoplight just cause it feels so good to stop so effectively lolol

Try lubing that brake lever... I do use my rear brake just out of habit and mostly lightly when coming to a stop at lights or whatever. definitely use it a lot while turning slowly in parking lots too. It aint there for no reason!

[Soujyu]

When I had my 250, I put in stainless steel lines both in the front and in the rear at about 5000 miles or so when I was replacing the brake pads. Now going to my liter bike, I feel that the rear brake has about the same amount of stopping power as my 250 with the stainless steel lines. The only big difference is since my literbike is at least 150lbs heavier in wet weight, it's not as effective.

The front brakes, on the other hand, are a monster. Having adjustable levers for feel is a must with bigger bikes.

[Runeknight95]

That may be part of the problem, both my 636 and 1k have aftermarket lines as well lol.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

A rubber hose and a 20oz mt dew bottle.

I'm about to attempt this method

let's hope it works out

new pads and finally switching to my SS brake lines on my 300 with new fluid

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Finesse

My 99 250 had front Galfer rotor and Galfer semi metallic brake pads.... braked like a champ, no issues. It's not the sharpest, smoothest, most stunningly effective brake but it WILL stop the bike quick. my 03 SV650 brakes even better up front with dual rotors and fresh fluid and stainless steel lines.. almost too much brake! very even, smooth, and effective...

will confirm, those front brakes are sick on that lil' 2-fiddy

I have been surprised multiple times on track how well that thing brakes, the r6 felt similar except with more outright stopping power

[Finesse]

I don't 'feel' the SS brake lines. Supposedly they only matter under very hard braking where rubber would expand or flex a little and absorb some of the braking power. But I don't know too much about it but I don't think it's true that SS brake lines increase braking power under all levels of braking more than rubber lines do, only hard braking.

[Finesse]

Originally Posted by Sirref

will confirm, those front brakes are sick on that lil' 2-fiddy

I have been surprised multiple times on track how well that thing brakes, the r6 felt similar except with more outright stopping power

I rode a 2004 ninja 250 recently and the customer was complaining that after he had installed SS brake lines, his bike didn't brake like he expected it to. I think he expected a much more sensitive and sharp feel from the brakes, but they felt fine to me. My 250 felt a little better (as far as I can remember) but that may be because I had put in fresh new brake pads and rotor... I don't know that Galfer is any better than stock, but that rotor sure looks sexy dont it!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Finesse

I don't 'feel' the SS brake lines. Supposedly they only matter under very hard braking where rubber would expand or flex a little and absorb some of the braking power. But I don't know too much about it but I don't think it's true that SS brake lines increase braking power under all levels of braking more than rubber lines do, only hard braking.

afaik SS brake lines are more about a consistent feel than a sharper one, a sharper feel is all in your setup. To get a proper sharp feel you need good pads/rotors/consistent brake fluid/and a nice tight lever pull (which you achieved by lubing your brake line)

Originally Posted by Finesse

I rode a 2004 ninja 250 recently and the customer was complaining that after he had installed SS brake lines, his bike didn't brake like he expected it to. I think he expected a much more sensitive and sharp feel from the brakes, but they felt fine to me. My 250 felt a little better (as far as I can remember) but that may be because I had put in fresh new brake pads and rotor... I don't know that Galfer is any better than stock, but that rotor sure looks sexy dont it!

I'd say it's better than stock

[LittleRedNinjette]

After putting SS lines on the 300 I think they feel much better.
I still have the stock pads and rotor.
My braking confidence has improved with the stopping power. I think SS lines will be on of the first mods I do on any future bikes.

[choneofakind]

I think I need to go wrap some threading in teflon tape, because my brake lever isn't as firm as Chris's. I've got lever envy! The feel is good. The response is good. But it's just not... firm. It also got worse with heavy use. Screams to me water in the fluid or a system that isn't tight.

hmmmmmm.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Finesse

I don't 'feel' the SS brake lines. Supposedly they only matter under very hard braking where rubber would expand or flex a little and absorb some of the braking power. But I don't know too much about it but I don't think it's true that SS brake lines increase braking power under all levels of braking more than rubber lines do, only hard braking.

Katie,

The spring effect of the rubber hose does not absorb braking power.

Braking power depends only on the hand force that is applied to the lever and the actual coefficient of friction between the pads and the disc.

Old braking mechanisms were a direct connection, via a steel rod or Bowden cable and secondary levers, to the braking pads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowden_cable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_law

All the modern hydraulic systems do is replacing that steel rod or cable and cumbersome levers, so a straight run between lever/pedal and pads' pivot is not longer needed.

The spring effect of rubber hoses is equivalent to inserting a strong spring in that old steel rod: the initial muscular effort will be used to expand the spring/rubber hose, introducing some spongy or non-linear feedback, but at the end, all the force of your hand/foot is reaching those pads.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I think I need to go wrap some threading in teflon tape, because my brake lever isn't as firm as Chris's. I've got lever envy! The feel is good. The response is good. But it's just not... firm. It also got worse with heavy use. Screams to me water in the fluid or a system that isn't tight.

hmmmmmm.

We had a hell of a time bleeding the front brake, went through almost two things a fluid and had to use a vacuum bleeder kit when we put the SS lines on.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I think I need to go wrap some threading in teflon tape, because my brake lever isn't as firm as Chris's. I've got lever envy! The feel is good. The response is good. But it's just not... firm. It also got worse with heavy use. Screams to me water in the fluid or a system that isn't tight.

hmmmmmm.

Keep at it man! It's a simple system, so there has to be a simple answer.

Now you know one of the little secrets to how I brake the way I do. I simply have 100% faith and confidence in my braking system. If you liked how it felt in the paddock, you should feel it while out there riding. And don't forget... that is even with those 99.9% spent pads on there.

[choneofakind]

Dude.... Those pads. Hahahaha

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Dude.... Those pads. Hahahaha

pic coming....

[csmith12]

@Runeknight95 - sorry to kinda jack your thread. So how you doin' with yours?

[MirinNinja]

I jump on my 300 about once a month for track days. I panic every time at the start because it feels like the front brake isn't working at all

You just have to squeeze a shitload harder on the 300 compared to my 600. That said, braking power is still adequate. Only "mods" are brake lines and EBC HH pads. About the same braking power as stock but waaay less brake fade.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Dude.... Those pads. Hahahaha

Originally Posted by csmith12

pic coming....

[Flying]

Those pads.

[Sirref]

those look almost as bad as the first set of pads from my N300

...if only I had taken a picture :/ due to lack of photographic evidence I defer to your efficient use of brake pads

[Rifleman]

Got all 3.



Understand that the 250 is a single side duel pot.

the CBR600F3 are dual side dual pot.

and the TLR is a dual side 310mm rotor, 6 pot calipers. The 600 and the 1000 will lift the rear with two fingers on the lever.



here is a little trick that may help.

the night before you are going to bleed/replace your brakes...

Tie a bandanna or zip tie around your lever, or put something heavy on the peddle.

the idea here is to place the system under pressure for an extended period of time (over night)

what this does is force any moisture, or small air pockets into the brake fluid...

the next day, when you do the bleed/change... all the "badness" goes out with the used fluid and the system is as clean and moisture free as it can be.

this also works on "soft" brakes even with out a replacement, tie it up, should be good and grabby in the morning.

Prepping the bike for a rear brake change

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Got all 3.



Understand that the 250 is a single side duel pot.

the CBR600F3 are dual side dual pot.

and the TLR is a dual side 310mm rotor, 6 pot calipers. The 600 and the 1000 will lift the rear with two fingers on the lever.



here is a little trick that may help.

the night before you are going to bleed/replace your brakes...

Tie a bandanna or zip tie around your lever, or put something heavy on the peddle.

the idea here is to place the system under pressure for an extended period of time (over night)

what this does is force any moisture, or small air pockets into the brake fluid...

the next day, when you do the bleed/change... all the "badness" goes out with the used fluid and the system is as clean and moisture free as it can be.

this also works on "soft" brakes even with out a replacement, tie it up, should be good and grabby in the morning.

Prepping the bike for a rear brake change

I do the zip tie wrap periodically on my bikes as well. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not so much. But its easy enough to do and well worth the effort.

[capt_bugaloo]

I've rode quite a few bikes. In comparison, the stock brakes of the newer 250 are okay; not too weak, not too strong. The bike is fairly small and light, so that helps.

If I have any complaint, it's that the brakes don't have great 'feel', even with fresh fluid and pads. They grab okay, but you just don't get the same feedback as on other brakes. Things feel a bit 'dull'.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

I've rode quite a few bikes. In comparison, the stock brakes of the newer 250 are okay; not too weak, not too strong. The bike is fairly small and light, so that helps.

If I have any complaint, it's that the brakes don't have great 'feel', even with fresh fluid and pads. They grab okay, but you just don't get the same feedback as on other brakes. Things feel a bit 'dull'.

agreed

[Road Dawg1]

Originally Posted by Motofool

For regular street riding, I only use the front brake of my 2007 Ninja 250.
I practice emergency braking regularly, again, only using the front brake.

Educate me - why would you skip using the rear brake?

[adouglas]

Because the rear brake doesn't do all that much when you're braking really hard. Even under optimal (i.e. non-emergency) conditions. something like 70% of your braking force comes from the front.

In an emergency braking situation, there is very little (or even no) weight on the rear wheel. A small misjudgment could cause the wheel to lock, which could then lead to a highside once it regains traction.

Careful modulation of the rear brake can avoid a lock and also avoid a highside, but remember this is an emergency scenario. Few riders have the presence of mind to carefully control rear brake pressure in such a situation.

[cbinker]

Are the 250R brakes Radial or non Radial? I know my ZX6R and S1000RR both have radial brakes. but for some reason i am thinking the 250R does not.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by cbinker

Are the 250R brakes Radial or non Radial? I know my ZX6R and S1000RR both have radial brakes. but for some reason i am thinking the 250R does not.

not radial mounted calipers on the ninjette

[sharky nrk]

also

not radial master either

[250rr]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Katie,

The spring effect of the rubber hose does not absorb braking power.

Braking power depends only on the hand force that is applied to the lever and the actual coefficient of friction between the pads and the disc.

Old braking mechanisms were a direct connection, via a steel rod or Bowden cable and secondary levers, to the braking pads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowden_cable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_law

All the modern hydraulic systems do is replacing that steel rod or cable and cumbersome levers, so a straight run between lever/pedal and pads' pivot is not longer needed.

The spring effect of rubber hoses is equivalent to inserting a strong spring in that old steel rod: the initial muscular effort will be used to expand the spring/rubber hose, introducing some spongy or non-linear feedback, but at the end, all the force of your hand/foot is reaching those pads.

Didn't know this. Makes perfect sense. Thanks!

[250rr]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

also

not radial master either

Always wondered what 'radial master' meant. Thank you.