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Old September 27th, 2014, 06:23 AM   #1
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Talking The amazing Hulk and Batman begins

As some of you might recall I am building a frankenstein engine based on a 1453km stock 2013 300 FI engine with some 250 FI stock parts and some 250-destined aftermarket parts...
The tittle is a "catcher" but has a reason... I am making a global -most probably- ever first attempt to overbore a 300 engine (that is where Hulk amazes) but also with no background data and lots of parts modified, custom-made or rebuilt to specifications of my choice I am a bit "on the dark side" (where Batman begins) but I am giving it a try...
I have to say that I am working on it at a very slow pace. That for one I am being in a very difficult situation financially and because I will try not to have it blow up within a few working hours... In order to achieve the latter I might change some variables along the way since I am still testing stuff and have in mind options I can work with... I will explain along the way and of course will be happy to provide as much info as possible and answer questions -if I can- so as to build a guideline for others to follow if it eventually works...
Hope you enjoy and please feel free to say your opinion, we don't need to agree on everything but I believe that through sharing ideas, a better outcome might come forth and more food for thought will be offered.
Needless to mention I can use all the help you can give me...

One last thing to say before I set off is that I didn't choose the "300 tech talk" for two reasons... one is that this engine will be put on a 2009 FI 250 which will keep all of its electric, wiring and electronics and two is that many parts where either designed for or borrowed from a 250 engine...
If Alex believes it is better to move it, it is of course fine by me...
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Last futzed with by micoulisninja; September 27th, 2014 at 08:13 AM.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 06:37 AM   #2
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[/URL][/IMG]

so, this is the package that arrived from Germany in August...

[/URL]

and is what was in it and how it was being packaged...pretty impressive I must say compared to how Greek sellers send and package....
along with the engine I purchased these (German salvage sell many parts of the engine as "extras"
1. 32mm TB with injectors, TPS etc...
2. starter
3. front mounting brackets
4. fuel pump along with base
5. mounting rubbers from head to TB

[/URL]

I will use the 250's rotor, stator, starting gear, oil pump axle and water pump assembly since they didn't come along with the engine (I would have to purchase them independently) and they were either the same or able to fit in the 300 engine.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 06:53 AM   #3
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A few days earlier I had the 67mm overbore kit delivered, ordered through ebay...

[/URL]

which is pretty much the "Kuwahara kit" but with smaller (and lighter) pistons and included base and head gaskets, all aluminum block with alumil coating (similar but a bit inferior to nikasil), cast pistons with graphite coating, pins and locks... pretty much what is being advertised here:
http://layz-motor.com/product/body-k...ja-250-300-cc/
and have talked about here:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=166935
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Old September 27th, 2014, 07:53 AM   #4
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so far most of the work I have done is measuring, comparing and testing...
I used some "outsider" data too, from ZX-6R, aftermarket JE, wiseco and other piston builders either for 250, I-4 kawi 600s from 2000 on and some suzuki 750s
reasons for these choices were
1. piston size and weight
2. cylinder capacity
3. stroke
4. rev limits related to parts' reliability and working stability

so many numbers are coming along... for those uninterested in comparison charts and figures, you can skip that part

_________250 62mm__300 62mm__ZX-6R 66mm__JE 66mm__KIT 67mm__NickTuned

piston______123,6_____117,4_______141,9_______148,2______152,3______134,9
pin_________35,4______31,4________35,4________42,1_______40,8_______35,0
safety_x2____0,8_______0,8_________0,8_________1,0________0,4________0,4
rings________6,6_______6,6_________7,9_________8,4________8,1________8,1
rods_______250,0_____253,4_______250,0_______250,0______253,4______249,6

total_______416,4_____409,6_______436,0_______449,7______455,0______428,0

NOTES: in the "ZX-6R" and "JE 66mm" rods weights are 250's since the pistons can be fit only in the 250 resleeved block, zx6 are from '00 mod (uses identical piston pins and safeties to the 250's) and JE are the high quality forged 12,5 CR mod (reason why heavier)
overbore kit's and my tuned rod weights are stock 300 and polished 300 rods respectfully since I am using this engine... take 3-4 grams off total to get 250 values...
differences in my tuned parts are result of rod polishing, piston reshaping and lightening to my specifications...images will follow shortly...
all weights are in grams keep in mind that values may vary from piece to piece due to casting etc but gives an idea of what to expect as far as reciprocating weight is concerned

conclusively my total is definetely much heavier than stock 250's and 300's but still managed to get lighter than every other overbore scenario, believing without weakening anything to a dangerous point...

edit: pistons weight was reduced by additional 0,6 grams after finalising process and accuracy measuring...
numbers on board are corrected...
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Old September 27th, 2014, 08:11 AM   #5
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before I took the engine apart I made my new headers to fit and route the way I wanted using my R-77 Yoshi first 10cm, then stock ZX-12R header tubes (had them handy and useless), then again 2 to 1 part from Yoshi, then the rest will be custom made after I put the engine in its place... a pic from when I was matching it...

[/URL]

after that I started dealing with the modifications I had in mind to do...
the lineup
1. TBs "porting"
2. piston and pins' lightening and balancing
3. rod polishing and balancing
4. head work
5. oil pump axle, water pump, starting gear, stator/rotor and 250's side covers to fit
6. 300 fuel pump to fit in 250's tank (along with its base as proven obligatory on the way)
of those only the last is yet to complete and has proven a PITA so far but can be done with some patience and a lot of work...mostly because 250 Fi tank has 5 bolt holes while 300's has 6...luckily the 300's base is wider and flat so a new drill design will do the job...
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Old September 27th, 2014, 08:14 AM   #6
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A guy from Colorado built up a 300 and it's for sale now here:
http://www.mnsportbikeriders.com/for...howtopic=75112
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Old September 27th, 2014, 08:24 AM   #7
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well this is not a 300 based engine which has an all aluminum cylinder block... it is most probably a resleeved 250 along with a 300 crank in 250's casings...unless he had an engine before it was taken out to production (mentions having already 2 racing seasons), this the same as Bruce's 336cc who has also put together such a nice combo...
The difference is using a 300 casings' along with aluminum block for 345cc in a 250's chassis...
there is no overbore kit designed yet for the 300 and if anyone has tried oversizing it, it must have been using the 250's block resleeved

Maybe that is a better, easier or more reliable choice... I am not questioning that, it is a matter of taste, preference and part selection. I am just saying I managed the first recorded so far attempt to use the 300's casing along with all-aluminum overbore kit, maybe I didn't after all
Anyway, that is not the point here...
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Old September 27th, 2014, 08:40 AM   #8
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Old September 27th, 2014, 08:48 AM   #9
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I guess then that is all to be talked about... or at least the most important...
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Old September 28th, 2014, 06:13 PM   #10
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@micoulisninja - wow Nick, that already looks and reads impressive and I wish you the very best luck for this project with a lot of fun when you take it out for the first ride
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Old September 28th, 2014, 10:54 PM   #11
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thank you very much Roland !!

so here is a pic of the 32mm stock 300 TB's
the left part of the axle is still intact while the right has been slighty "ported"

[/URL]

and here it is almost finished... this axle thinning allows less turbulent and greater flow of air to the engine
has been tested quite a lot to check on axle's strength

[/URL]

300's injectors still on it, will use 250's slightly bigger ones
all secondary mechanisms of course have been removed, including butterflies
the increase of flow is at least as having a 1mm bigger TB size...
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Old September 29th, 2014, 02:11 AM   #12
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Working on parts in Mediterranean weather, I wouldn't ask for more.
Looking forward to how you handle the head work.
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Old September 29th, 2014, 07:18 AM   #13
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Old September 29th, 2014, 07:53 AM   #14
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@micoulisninja, Nick if you got 100 Euro left then get this http://www.twinmax.de/prtmx.html
I'm following you and your work really impressed
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Old September 29th, 2014, 07:58 AM   #15
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Nice project youre having there,buddy!
With the secondaries removed how do you gonna manage the FI light? Do you have some sorta servo buddy?
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Old September 29th, 2014, 09:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
well this is not a 300 based engine which has an all aluminum cylinder block... it is most probably a resleeved 250 along with a 300 crank in 250's casings...unless he had an engine before it was taken out to production (mentions having already 2 racing seasons), this the same as Bruce's 336cc who has also put together such a nice combo...
The difference is using a 300 casings' along with aluminum block for 345cc in a 250's chassis...
there is no overbore kit designed yet for the 300 and if anyone has tried oversizing it, it must have been using the 250's block resleeved

Maybe that is a better, easier or more reliable choice... I am not questioning that, it is a matter of taste, preference and part selection. I am just saying I managed the first recorded so far attempt to use the 300's casing along with all-aluminum overbore kit, maybe I didn't after all
Anyway, that is not the point here...
He could have resleeved the 300 block or used an overbored 250 one. The 250 block should bolt on a 300 case but not vise versa.
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Old September 29th, 2014, 10:40 AM   #17
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Old September 29th, 2014, 10:44 AM   #18
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Old September 29th, 2014, 11:37 AM   #19
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Old September 29th, 2014, 12:36 PM   #20
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I've been thinking about tackling a project like this for the last year... but learning about bikes like the KTM RC390, Honda NC30 and Honda Bros 400 have given me pause. It's great to see someone tackling this particular build

I'll be watching this one like a hawk
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Old September 29th, 2014, 03:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying View Post
Working on parts in Mediterranean weather, I wouldn't ask for more.
Looking forward to how you handle the head work.
well weather is no longer "mediterranean"...has turned out to be quite tropical during past week... temps are still fairly high for season but there are masive outbursts of sudden and pourring rain that have been holding me back...
managed to catch a cold too and I am feeling lousy...can't stand drills etc so I have to take an unvoluntary break for a couple of days... I will post pics of head and valves when I'll be done (hopefully by end of week)... so far it is in the rough stage... but I have to admit that after looking at this and examining along with some (considered as being serious) tuners I went for porting big-time since having extra ccs...
same valve seats but opened up, same valves to keep valvetrain fatigue as low as possible, only a bit of polishing and lightening them about a gram each...
stock 300 intake valve is almost by a gram heavier compared to 250's so I had them made about equal weight...
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Old September 29th, 2014, 03:24 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rassie View Post
This going to be bad ass...subbed.
not as bad ass as yours !! still envy your 300 project even if with stock engine... this front system modification is one of a kind... I would bet that round a tight track you would beat my extra hp only by thundering through corners !!
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Old September 29th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
@micoulisninja, Nick if you got 100 Euro left then get this http://www.twinmax.de/prtmx.html
I'm following you and your work really impressed
If I am not mistaken this is a subpressure regulator/balancer for TBs and/or carbs... My mecahnic and I use that kind of equipement from time to time...
Unless there is sth really special about this particular device, I can't see any major difference comparing it to what we use...
Am I missing sth here ?

Thank you for your support Roland !!
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Old September 29th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Chris View Post
I've been thinking about tackling a project like this for the last year... but learning about bikes like the KTM RC390, Honda NC30 and Honda Bros 400 have given me pause. It's great to see someone tackling this particular build

I'll be watching this one like a hawk
I have riden a good friend's NC30 many times and have enjoyed its ballanced performane...I owned a Bros 400 PGM for 11 years... still miss it from time to time such a reliable tool and balanced and forgiving bike... had to send it because of rear tire lack of choices (rear rim was 18" on the PGM...)
what does the little KTM feel like, haven't had a chance to test it yet... is it punchy and nimble as it looks ??
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Old October 1st, 2014, 01:03 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
If I am not mistaken this is a subpressure regulator/balancer for TBs and/or carbs... My mecahnic and I use that kind of equipement from time to time...
Unless there is sth really special about this particular device, I can't see any major difference comparing it to what we use...
Am I missing sth here ?

Thank you for your support Roland !!
Nick, thank you, that's good you got this tool already so just forget about my link.

By the way, I'm in contact now with one of the four gurus in ecu-remapping and since the ecu of my model isn't hacked until now, I'll buy one which i send to him to hack it and then he'll make a special mapping for my needs, especially in the ignition timing, and also he will send a cable and all software so I can change it by myself. Additionally I'll do changes with the Leovince FAST Fuel-System, since he's going to tell me the mapping of the original afr-values.
That all lets me know all the important informations about the ecu and yes, it's for sure no cheap way but it's a best one.
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Old October 1st, 2014, 07:23 AM   #26
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Nice project youre having there,buddy!
With the secondaries removed how do you gonna manage the FI light? Do you have some sorta servo buddy?
Any help here...
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Old October 1st, 2014, 08:58 AM   #27
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Any help here...
Ah, yes... sorry Red, forgot all about that...
well, I had already that done in the previous TBs... I can't share any pics cause I haven't kept any but the process I used was this... when I took out secondary butterflies, axle and shut with epoxy the remaining holes, I cut a tiny part of the axle that fits in the control mechanism and fit it back in place(mechanism is of course unbolted and moveable to any position you prefer but it is best to keep it vertically positioned)...then I took a piece of metal about the size of the mechanism, drilled holes to bolt it on and used it as a "back" to hold the tiny axle part in place while at the same time it will be able to function as if secondary butterflies are still in place and as if it controls axle according to ECU's management...it might sound a bit complicated but it is quite simple to do really...
that way FI stays off, mechanism works, more power and nicer sound produced and it costs only some patience and a piece of metal plate...
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Old October 1st, 2014, 09:13 AM   #28
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Today I felt a little better and finished with the valves...
250 stock intake valves weigh 17.2 grams
300 stock intake valves weigh 18.0 grams and are by 1mm larger OD (compared to 250's)
exhaust valves (same for both) weigh 17,0 grams
after some polishing for better flow, mostly to smoothen out that step they have near the bottom of the stem and to lighten them a bit, especially the intake ones which were now significantly heavier (compared to 250's and exhaust ones) on the 300 engine- given the fact that valve springs are also identical on both engines and both at intake and exhaust...so now...
my intake valves weigh 17.1 grams and my exhaust ones weigh 16.7
here is a pic of the intake valves left is stock, right is how I shape it, almost done...

[/URL]

and this pic is of the exhaust ones...again stock on the left...

[/URL]
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Old October 1st, 2014, 09:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
Nick, thank you, that's good you got this tool already so just forget about my link.

By the way, I'm in contact now with one of the four gurus in ecu-remapping and since the ecu of my model isn't hacked until now, I'll buy one which i send to him to hack it and then he'll make a special mapping for my needs, especially in the ignition timing, and also he will send a cable and all software so I can change it by myself. Additionally I'll do changes with the Leovince FAST Fuel-System, since he's going to tell me the mapping of the original afr-values.
That all lets me know all the important informations about the ecu and yes, it's for sure no cheap way but it's a best one.

I just love that kind of stuff Roland !! but it is both expensive and time consuming for someone like me so I'll have to stick with my PC V to tune fuel and ignition... as for revs, I guess I have to bring it down a bit... somewhere about where stock 250s rev will be fine I guess...
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Old October 1st, 2014, 09:37 AM   #30
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next is some data on piston pins...
here is a pic showing 3 different sizes and weights...
left is stock 300 (31.4 grams, 40mm) middle is stock 250 (35.1 grams, 45mm) and right is from the overbore kit...originally weighing almost 41grams, now is only 35.0 grams after I had it machined and chamfered immitating the 250's angle for a total length of 48.5mm...

[/URL]

see the depth the chamfering goes on the 250's ??(right)did the same depth and same angle on the kit's...

[/URL]
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Old October 1st, 2014, 10:23 AM   #31
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haha you are a certainly a details man.

Great work, keep the pics coming.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 06:48 AM   #32
micoulisninja
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haha you are a certainly a details man.

Great work, keep the pics coming.
thank you Josh !! so here's one of the connecting rods...
the one on top right is a stock 250's...
notice the absence of numbering marks besides the polishing...I also had them balanced top and bottom end... most of the work was on the beam but just enough to remove casting flaws...

[/URL]

I must admit it was much easier than I originally had expected and that was for two reasons. One is that casting methods and factory weighing accuracy has dramatically improved over the years since the original weights for the rods was almost identical; 253,2 and 253,4... a difference of 0,2 grams is practically negligible. That difference could have been up to 10 grams on a I-4 big cc bike 20 years ago...
So, having to work with such minor weight differences in general it was pretty easy to get them to the exact same weight...and being that close in total weight also resulted in them being almost identically balanced top and bottom from the beginning, so not much science there...weight after polishing is 249,6 grams for both... sory for the pic quality but some of them I took indoors...
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 09:26 AM   #33
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thank you Josh !! so here's one of the connecting rods...

So, having to work with such minor weight differences in general it was pretty easy to get them to the exact same weight...and being that close in total weight also resulted in them being almost identically balanced top and bottom from the beginning, so not much science there...weight after polishing is 249,6 grams for both..
You could probably save a few more grams if you used aluminum bolts on those hehehe/

Are you blue printing this bad boy as you go?

A detailed build sheet would be cool to see when its all done.
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Old October 2nd, 2014, 12:26 PM   #34
micoulisninja
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You could probably save a few more grams if you used aluminum bolts on those hehehe/

Are you blue printing this bad boy as you go?

A detailed build sheet would be cool to see when its all done.
I aim at reducing weight off the top of the moving assembly to comfort rod stretch...there are many more things that I could do to improve even more performance and/or reliability... for example lightening and rebalancing the crank or removing the ballancer etc.... but for my very limited financial resources and the fact that this is going to be also my eveyday commute, I skipped the part of spliting the cases and I am sticking with improvements and tuning I can do at home with a few tools, a lot of patience and my wife complaining about al this metal dust getting all around the house...
as for aluminum rod bolts, call me old school or stupid but I don't trust them in bike engines...

since we are lucky enough to have overweight and internally balanced crankshaft in our modest engines, "blueprinting" is restricted to middle and upper end... when I finish I will of course present a detailed sheet of all the work involved...so far my only expences were a new carbide cutter and a few grinders for all the work presented so far...however the almost brand new engine and parts I purchased from Germany were not cheap... along with the kit the total is about $1500(including p&p)...
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Old October 4th, 2014, 02:25 PM   #35
micoulisninja
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Today I was feeling a lot better, had the day off, so I managed to do most of the "bulk" head job... still some finishing to do, especially on the exhaust side since I just finished with the rough emery bits and stuff...
however you cna get an idea of what it will be like when finalised since shaping and porting is done...

intake...

[/URL]

21,5mm at the valve seat...

[/URL]

[/URL]

and exhaust...

[/URL]

19mm at the valve seat...

[/URL]

last but not least, some smoothening of the top of the chamber, deshrouding the valves etc... miling is yet to come, after I check piston to valve clearance etc...

[/URL]

[/URL]
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Old October 5th, 2014, 12:45 PM   #36
red26
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nice... i noticed the hole for the smog exhaust, don't you want to fill the hole to create a nice exhaust flow /turbulance etc?
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Old October 6th, 2014, 01:08 AM   #37
micoulisninja
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nice... i noticed the hole for the smog exhaust, don't you want to fill the hole to create a nice exhaust flow /turbulance etc?
sure will tap it somehow... last minute's decision when putting it together... any suggestion in particular ?
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Old October 6th, 2014, 08:04 AM   #38
red26
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I was hoping you would suggest something to me. LOL. I 've searched around that welding is the best bet but i still havent heard anyone come up with JB-Weld yet..
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Old October 6th, 2014, 02:56 PM   #39
micoulisninja
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well, I will probably end up plugging in a bolt on each one to tap it as close to the bottom as possible... haven't given it much thought yet... still have so much to do...
I am starting within the week by putting rods back in place, starting gear, rotor, stator, side covers, water pump and oil pump axle from 250...
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Old October 7th, 2014, 03:41 PM   #40
micoulisninja
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so today I tried fitting the 300 fuel pump along with its base and housing in my 250 tank and... fail !! there is a lip around the tank hole that prevents from letting it insert properly... so first I have to remove about 2mm of the inside diameter of the tank's housing to get the pump and base in place and then, mark the new bolt pattern to get it bolted on... I guess will be doing that next week since I am working on a few details at the moment (switching clutch springs, cleaning parts, labelling bolts and stuff)

So as far as pistons are concerned and their modification, here is the Kawahara racing photo of the pistons, top and bottom... notice the valve pocket angle on the pistons as they come with the kit...

[/URL]

and here are some photos of how they ended up after shaping the crown with the PROPER angle for the 250/300 head...

[/URL]

notice how much different the shape of the piston crown has become...

[/URL]

and bottom just before balancing their weight to each other's but also on each of their side (intake and exhaust)

[/URL]

holes on side of the skirts were made to relieve pressure underneath and oil circulation

and there from left to right...
very useful precision weight scale, 300, 250 and '00 ZX-6R stock piston, and my rotating assembly ready to be installed

[/URL]
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