**** feminism

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Pay attention to your next face to face conversation and tell me the percentage of eye to eye contact throughout (male or female). Unless who you are talking to is bleeding confidence, it's gunna be less than 50%. Hell, I am crazy confident and I don't always make 50%. ijs Human natures is not a reason.

I've actually been told that I hold eye contact more than most people by a few of my co-workers. I am fairly certain I don't hit 50% of the time though with few exceptions. You can tell a lot about a person from their eyes.

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I am sorry.

Nah it's cool; I prefer it that way.

Originally Posted by alex.s

that's it. i will start stalking you just so i can randomly say hi to you on the street.

/creep.

I'll make sure to shank you because it would be funny

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

You can tell a lot about a person from their eyes.

50% or better is really hard.

[alex.s]

i have often found that people that i fear, or expect to be assholes without really knowing them... it turns out almost without fail to be my own prejudice and most of them turn out to be friendly, caring people that aren't total freaks if i spend the time to stop and talk with them and get to know them. i'm always the biggest asshole i know. you should see the hippies in norcal. some guy you would expect to be a mass murderer is actually a painter that rescues sick dogs and has a phd but decided he wanted to instead sit in a park playing songs on guitar. even your average LA bum. true, if you catch them all twacked out they're gonna be weird. but if they stumble on your garage party and you're cool to them guess what, they're typically cool back. i guess what i am saying is that everybody has different expectations of what normal is. just because someone else's normal isn't normal to you doesn't mean they're intentionally trying to disturb you. with that said, there are certainly a lot of assholes out there. but prejudice is prejudice, regardless of where it comes from.

[antiant]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

rapists don't deserve genitals.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Pay attention to your next face to face conversation and tell me the percentage of eye to eye contact throughout (male or female). Unless who you are talking to is bleeding confidence, it's gunna be less than 50%. Hell, I am crazy confident and I don't always make 50%. ijs Human natures is not a reason.

When I talk to people I make it a point to have eye to eye contact. I want them to look at my eyes so they don't realize I'm peeing on them.

[csmith12]

....

"Prove me wrong, male or female.... anything less than perfection is intolerable in the world today." - csmith

[M42]

Catcalling is one of those things men will never get their heads around. "I'd love it if women said they wanted to bang me twice every city block!" This doesn't take into account the immense power imbalance between men and women, both socially and physically.

The best way I've found to explain it to dudes is: imagine Bubba McLargeHuge, an enormous bear of a gay man. He could bench two of you with one arm and you would never win in a fight against him. He's telling you how grabbable your ass looks, and asking you whether you're gonna be home alone tonight and where you're going, and telling you the explicit things he'd like to do to you. Or slowing his car and following you as you walk on the sidewalk, for 300 feet, silently. If you don't say anything to him, he gets angry, if you tell him to piss off, he gets angry, if you tell him politely to leave you alone, he gets angry.

That's the ones that are immediately threatening. You might just be walking down the street, minding your own business, and Brick McShithouse yells, Hey bitch! Nice crotch bulge! And suddenly you're thinking, oh crap, I hope this isn't another Bubba McLargeHuge. What if he starts following me again? What if he gets mad? What's he going to do? You don't know. You have no idea what way the situation will go, but just having to think about the times you felt seriously threatened, and wondering if it's about to happen again...


Within the last week, I've had to walk two blocks over to get groceries 3 times. One time, a guy started wolf whistling and wouldn't stop till the light turned green and he had to drive off. Another, a guy slowed his car down and poked half his body out of the window, and yelled if I wanted to have some fun with him. I don't even know what the third guy said, some incomprehensible hooting and hollering. And that was all just in the last week. I'm just getting goddamn jalapenos from the store. Leave me alone. I didn't ask for a damn "compliment" about how nice my t&a look, I didn't ask you to tell me what you want to do to me in a bedroom. A compliment is hey nice smile/shoes/bag/ninjette, not nice (insert highly sexualized body part commonly used to titillate here). I'm not some kind of aberration either, I went to an all-chick bar crawl recently and we spent a legit 2 hours sharing catcalling/harassment horror stories.



What will you lose by not catcalling women in the street? "This guy just whistled at me and went to grab my ass, I'm going to date him" - no one ever. And if you DO feel like you're gonna lose something by not catcalling women, you may have a critical personality error.

[alex.s]

there are a lot of assholes. but not all men are rapist pieces of ****. so please do not say "catcalling is one of those things men will never get their heads around". this is just as prejudice as those catcallers. you are lumping all men into one massive statement.

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by alex.s

there are a lot of assholes. but not all men are rapist pieces of ****. so please do not say "catcalling is one of those things men will never get their heads around". this is just as prejudice as those catcallers. you are lumping all men into one massive statement.

You should know better than to take generalizations as truly meaning every member of a demographic. If you know it doesn't apply to you, then you have no reason to worry about it. The "not all men" argument only serves to derail discussions of feminism and put the focus on men and their feelings.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

http://bgr.com/2014/10/28/street-har...k-gopro-video/

This video really peeves me. Some of that was harassment, sure, but I make smalltalk with strangers all the time, male or female, attractive or not. Should I be considered a sex offender for that?

[Ninjinsky]

Then there's the female developers being driven out of their homes by threats.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29821050
and female conferences cancelled after death threats
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29626809

Britain has now started tracking down jailing these anonymous death threat creeps and it is about time the US followed suit.
(and before anybody starts, death threats are not a "freedom of speech" issue)

[eddiekay]

Death threats ( and far less antisocial behavior) are tracked down and punished in the US all the time. The public school systems are a self appointed enforcement agency in matters dealing with all kids up to high school and after that, many colleges do the same thing.
From the net, from Washington state..
14,876 students were suspended in the 2008-2009 school year because of bullying and 442 were expelled, according to data from the Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction
It's easy to see that the schools are trying to protect their students.
It takes a little deeper investigation to understand that they are also aggressively managing their own risk. Win-Win situation ?

[Ninjinsky]

Thanks Eddie, Good to know

[Panda]

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

You should know better than to take generalizations as truly meaning every member of a demographic. If you know it doesn't apply to you, then you have no reason to worry about it. The "not all men" argument only serves to derail discussions of feminism and put the focus on men and their feelings.

I agree. Ugly women shouldn't feel threatened by catcalling since they never get catcalled. Good thing generalizations don't actually mean anything if they don't apply to you.

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by Panda

I agree. Ugly women shouldn't feel threatened by catcalling since they never get catcalled. Good thing generalizations don't actually mean anything if they don't apply to you.

If statements like that really hurt your ego (which is really the most they're doing) you may want to rethink your opinions on women and your manhood. On the other hand, catcalling and other forms of harrassment make women fear for their lives. There's a difference. A man's ego doesn't take priority over a woman's life.

[LittleRedNinjette]

I'm with Rebecca and Eve on this.

[eddiekay]

Panda's a good guy...I think he was baiting you.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

You should know better than to take generalizations as truly meaning every member of a demographic. If you know it doesn't apply to you, then you have no reason to worry about it. The "not all men" argument only serves to derail discussions of feminism and put the focus on men and their feelings.

lets swap things around shall we?



driving is one of those things women will never be good at.



see how it doesn't work the way you're thinking it should? going by your logic, if you're a woman and a good driver, this statement should mean nothing to you, right? except that's not true. that's a horribly sexist remark. because it is GENERALIZING AN ENTIRE GENDER. this is prejudice.


prejudice is prejudice, regardless of if it comes from someone who is commonly a target of prejudice.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

If you know it doesn't apply to you, then you have no reason to worry about it.

I was trying to stay out of this, but this one comment is making me twitch. Really now? I expected better.

I know what you intend - that comments applied towards rough generalizations shouldn't be taken personally since they are not directed personally. I have a CD of a comedian who uses the rough generalizations between men and women for a whole set. Women critique random strangers outside the fitting rooms. Men greet their friends with vulgar comments. Ha ha, everyone laugh it's funny.

But as alex pointed out, it doesn't work that way towards real situations. "Men harass by catcalling." "Women suck at driving." That hurts everyone, whether it applies personally or not. I would hate to have my insurance rates go up, or my driving restricted, because "women can't drive".

Should I shrug off @M42's experience because some men harassed her, since it doesn't apply to me? Just because I have never been catcalled, I should have no worries about it? That comes dangerously close to "Well, since I don't get catcalls, it must be her fault somehow." No no no no, never!

True, there are a ton of men who are respectful towards other people that they can offer genuine compliments without coming across as creepy or harassing. True, there are some men that feel entitled enough that they can make rude sexual comments towards (primarily) women and expect to get away with it.

True, stopping the conversation to say "wait, not all .... are that way" does derail the point that was being made. But also true that the generalization that caused the comment hurts just as much as the example given.


This conversation does need to happen. Equality is not here and the conversation needs to continue until everyone is so equal there is no reason to talk about it anymore. But the conversation can only be beneficial if it works towards balancing the genders without shaming or downplaying either side.


That was a ramble, and I'm sorry about that. I feel strongly about the issue, even if I am not the most eloquent at expressing my thoughts.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

Panda's a good guy...I think he was baiting you.

I hear he's a master at baiting!

[LittleRedNinjette]

Why is it so hard for guys to get how uncomfortable and unnerving that kind of crap is???

Not the "hi how are you" but the "nice ass" stuff. I'm not your "babe" "honey" "sugar" or "sweet cheeks". Come on. Its rude at the bare minimum. Dont talk to me like i'm a bit of meat for you viewing pleasure.

And i don't believe many if any of the guys here are "those guys". So please, stop taking things to hart.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

If statements like that really hurt your ego (which is really the most they're doing) you may want to rethink your opinions on women and your manhood. On the other hand, catcalling and other forms of harrassment make women fear for their lives. There's a difference. A man's ego doesn't take priority over a woman's life.

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. Statements like those don't hurt me. But a generalization is a generalization and in the context of this discussion a generalization is lazy at best and insulting at worst.

What if I said ...

You might not understand why this is important because all women are emotional. Don't get offended because it's just a generalization. Also it it does bother it probably just hurt your ego so you may need to rethink your opinions on men and your womanhood.

It doesn't make sense when I say it and it doesn't make sense when you say it.

[M42]

If you don't see the difference between "men can't fully understand catcalling" and "women can't drive", your reasoning faculties are fundamentally broken.


For a man, there will never be an analogous experience that includes the myriad societal complexities that result in a singular experience untranslatable from a disadvantaged gender to an advantaged one =/= women can't drive because they're women, women get emotional because they're women, etc

[Panda]

So as a man I can't understand being marginalized or have strangers make me feel uncomfortable or make rude an inappropriate comments to me? I can't feel threatened and harassed on the street?

What if I am asian?
What if I am black in a upper middle class neighborhood and I get strange stares or people following me?
What if I'm gay?
What if I'm a hasidic or a quaker?

I wasn't aware woman were the only peoples in the world to experience harassment, prejudice, disenfranchisement, and discrimination. I further wasn't aware that not being aware that women were the only people that bear this cross makes my reasoning faculties fundamentally broken.

[M42]

Certainly not, but currently the conversation is about catcalling women, and getting irritated because I didn't include the word "many" in the statement "catcalling is one of those things men will never get their heads around" is akin to complaining about a paper cut when the person next to you has a spiral fracture.

And yet again, the conversation has successfully been derailed from the crap women have to deal with daily throughout their lives, to placating like two dudes who took issue with one unintended generalization on a goddamn motorbike forum.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by M42

If you don't see the difference between "men can't fully understand catcalling" and "women can't drive", your reasoning faculties are fundamentally broken.


For a man, there will never be an analogous experience that includes the myriad societal complexities that result in a singular experience untranslatable from a disadvantaged gender to an advantaged one =/= women can't drive because they're women, women get emotional because they're women, etc

ever heard of racism before? it effects both genders.

making a blanket statement about an entire gender or group of people is prejudice. i don't care if you are a woman, you are from another country, of a race that is commonly a target of bigotry.

if you want to eliminate prejudice, it has to be on both sides. to try to imply that because you are a target of prejudice, you can by no means be prejudice... this is a dishonor to everyone who has fought against any form of prejudice.

recognizing your own shortcomings and prejudices is the first step to a better world. nobody is free from prejudice.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by M42

And yet again, the conversation has successfully been derailed from the crap women have to deal with daily throughout their lives, to placating like two dudes who took issue with one unintended generalization on a goddamn motorbike forum.

some people don't like prejudice regardless of where it comes from.

[JohnnyBravo]

If hate to live in a place where sayin hey or waving is harrassment, I'd never get outa jail. That's probly why I live in the south, folks are nice and friendly usually. I hated PA, NJ, NY, an all then northern places I've been... Ash holes the lot

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

If hate to live in a place where sayin hey or waving is harrassment, I'd never get outa jail. That's probly why I live in the south, folks are nice and friendly usually. I hated PA, NJ, NY, an all then northern places I've been... Ash holes the lot

Y'all come back now!

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Y'all come back now!

[alex.s]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...ushpmg00000046

[JohnnyBravo]

I'm a harasser and didn't even know it... Oh well hi anyhow

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

I'm a harasser and didn't even know it... Oh well hi anyhow

we're all harassers. even women. most people just don't realize it.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

I'm a harasser and didn't even know it... Oh well hi anyhow

[M42]

I think we might be talking past each other, tbh. I don't mean to imply that prejudice is ok, nor that it's ok against everybody except women, yadda yadda. I take issue with the fact that you think saying "men can't understand what is a women-only experience" is prejudice. I mean... like I literally don't know what to make of that. Could also be that english isn't my first language, I dunno.

[csmith12]

I love this thread! Prolly pretty accurate to the thread topic too.

[M42]

It's a thread about feminism, on the internet. It'll probably get to a million posts before the "count to a million" thread will, with a headstart.

[MrAtom]

Of course, there's not going to be something analogous between the two types of discrimination, and I think women definitely get the short end of the stick when it comes to sexism, I'm definitely harassed as a male. I'm a thin vegan bisexual dude who cares about animals and rides a 250 (a "girls' bike") who lives in a mostly conservative town. Nobody would bat an eye about any of those things about me if I were female. But since I'm a male, I should lift my truck, eat meat, only date women, go to the gym and get a 'busa because that's what it means to be a man, and these experiences are definitely not unique to me. You don't need to understand exactly what someone's going through to understand that it's bad and shouldn't happen to them.