Avoiding the Rear Brake

[mfresh]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

The problem you are having is you're wrongly identifying your issue, the time between engaging either brakes in respect to the other is irrelevant as the maximum amount of pressure applied to either before the wheel locks is independent of the force applied on either at any given time.

Josh this not entirely true.

As others have also stated, when you apply braking resistance to the front the weight of the bike moves forward which gives the rear tire less traction. This means you would need to apply less braking pressure on the rear while you're braking with the front.

So the maximum amount of pressure applied to either before the tire locks are in fact at least partially dependent of the force applied on either at any given time.

The best way, in my opinion, to adjust for this issue is to apply the front brakes first. Particularly in hard/panic stops.

The easiest way for you to do this Yakaru would be to "cover" the front bakes as much as you can allowing you to react to them first thing.

Maybe look into the Throttle Cable Zip Tie Mod. If your wrist travels a smaller distance away from the brake lever during normal throttle control it should help you cover it easier.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

-- my question was NOT how to avoid the brake. It was how to avoid hitting the brake so much faster than the front because of the controls - I effectively always have the rear covered, but covering the front is exceedingly uncomfortable so I don't tend to do it outside of my practice.

Do you realize that by covering your front brake you can shave about a full tenth of a second off your reaction time. Not a lot of time, but time enough to travel an extra 9 feet or so if traveling 60 mph. If you are having problems handling the controls to where you are comfortable, installing some adjustable shorty levers, so that they are closer to the handlebars may help and you can still maintain at least 2 fingers and your thumb on the throttle. You should still have plenty of control of the throttle and brake unless you got baby hands.



This safety topic may shed some light on your issue.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

.......And if you don't like this answer shove it up your wazoo!

It is just me, or this is an improper way to talk to a lady?

[antiant]

Originally Posted by Motofool

It is just me, or this is an improper way to talk to a lady?

Nope, it's not just you. When someone is asking for help, it's a little disconcerting to get that type of response, whether male or female. It also makes someone hesitant to ask another question and get the help they need in the future.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Thanks cowboy, any advice on how to keep my index finger on the lever without losing fine control of the throttle or cramping?

You can use a the throttle with your palm/thumb and middle/ring fingers instead of index/middle fingers. That's what I do when I blip the throttle for downshifts while braking.

It should be okay for not cramping.

[Gurk]

You don't have to avoid the rear brake. You have to avoid slamming it.

Ways to avoid slamming it:
A) Don't f*cking slam it.
B) Shave your rear brake pads.
C) Shave your rear rotor
D) Adjust your rear brake on your rear set so that you have to really reach to the pedal to apply brakes (as opposed to having it right up your foot)
E) Install a heavy spring on the lever so that it has more resistance.
F) Don't f*cking slam it.

Take your pick!

[choneofakind]

^^ D is a pretty good option as well. Pardon Gurk's vibrant language

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Do you realize that by covering your front brake you can shave about a full tenth of a second off your reaction time. Not a lot of time, but time enough to travel an extra 9 feet or so if traveling 60 mph. If you are having problems handling the controls to where you are comfortable, installing some adjustable shorty levers, so that they are closer to the handlebars may help and you can still maintain at least 2 fingers and your thumb on the throttle........

I could add to Blue's good post that, at least in my case, getting used to keeping two fingers on the front brake's lever, has helped me much to have a micro-metric control over my throttle inputs.

That is something on which Keith Code insists a lot, developing super-fine control on the throttle and front brake, the two more powerful and dramatic controls.

This video shows how to perform the important adjustment of suiting your bike to your body and making riding more enjoyable and safe:

Link to original page on YouTube.

Sorry, Yakaru, for deviating from the response that you expected.

In my opinion, you need to eliminate a bad habit and develop a better one.

I have developed the habit of never using the rear brake, except for Gymkhana practice.

I know that, by doing that on the expressway at the high speeds I move 90% of my riding time, I am loosing some stopping capability, but that is better for me than risking a highside.

I have been in several emergency situation, with more or less conscious emergency control on the bike, but my feet have never reached for that rear brake pedal.

I am not telling you to do the same, I am trying to say that you can develop any new habit that you want, if you practice it enough.

[Yakaru]

Thanks for the responses guys, I was feeling like a real bitch earlier for kind of dismissing it :P

I'm definitely going to try some of these things -- btw: how do you adjust the brake pedal? I have adjusted my shifter but it doesn't look to have the same options. I'll try riding more with the front brake covered too; it may just be a 'growing pain' sort of thing where once I get used to it then it won't be as awkward.

The upshot is that I've only locked my rear 2 times (once in my accident and once in a panic stop that I immediately chastised myself for) -- but it's one of those things that I can always feel I'm on the verge of doing and I don't want to have a 'shoulda woulda coulda' in the hospital one day. I'm getting better at it every time I practice though. In fact, I may go freak the loading dock people at the grocery store out and go do some more drills today. :P (btw: best place to practice I have found is behind big grocery/department stores. Long straightaways with no traffic)

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

-- btw: how do you adjust the brake pedal?

You can move the brake pedal position up or down about 1.5 inches by adjusting the clevis on the brake pedal arm, however the amount of force produced by the brake assembly is not reduced.

You are in control of the amount of force applied to the pedal. The stock pads on the rear are the same as on the front. Replacing the rear pads with some organic ones will have a tad less stopping power and will not be prone to lock up as easy as the stock pads, however with enough force they will. This may help you mentally knowing you can get on the rear brake early and not lock up until the last second or two with the same amount of force you are used to applying.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by 80MPHdownhill

Always use both brakes on the street. After 10 years or so you'll be an experienced rider who can use a motorcycle properly.

I don't know why no one else didn't say this. It's so obvious. Well said. You get a good doobie award for higher intelligence and creative thinking.

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by antiant

Nope, it's not just you. When someone is asking for help, it's a little disconcerting to get that type of response, whether male or female. It also makes someone hesitant to ask another question and get the help they need in the future.

Get bent! When numerous people take their time to respond with help to a persons question to receive a rude response back from that person I am more than entitled to feel agreeved for the lack of gratitude for me giving up my time for free. And where did sexism come into this? I treat everyone equal, I don't reserve language for man nor woman nor child, it's exactly this form of positive sexism that is the remnant of an archaic society that needs to die before we can reach true gender equality.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Get bent! When numerous people take their time to respond with help to a persons question to receive a rude response back from that person I am more than entitled to feel agreeved for the lack of gratitude for me giving up my time for free.

I'm sorry if you felt my response was rude, it wasn't my intent. I was feeling quite frustrated that the thread had become about general braking technique -- because it is a topic that already has a bunch of threads and other references. The more recent posts have actually been a bit more pertinent and, for what it is worth, helped make improvements in my practice yesterday.

Don't want to see this turn into bickering, so everybody be nice okays? That goes for me too.

[CC Cowboy]

Where is the "wazoo" located?

[BlackNinja8]

We spend so much time and money on farkles as noobs I don't think there is enough emphasis on performance mods like stainless lines, upgraded pads, and supspension fine tuning. I have been guilty of this with both my bikes. Never modded my 250's brakes, and put 5000 miles on my SV with worn pads and crappy OEM lines. Never realized that for $120 total I could do stainless front brake lines and new pads. Cheap and easy DIY mods and my brake performance is VASTLY improved and confidence inspiring (suspension tuning next).

Maybe I missed the message early on but we should encourage more noobs to become intimately familiar with their brake and suspension internals. I always thought those issues were for track junkies but they can save your skin on the streets. My 2c

[Panda]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Where is the "wazoo" located?

Just south of the fun stick.

[alex.s]

thread tl;dr. the correct braking procedure depends entirely on road surface condition. high traction means high braking forces which mean front only with maybe some engine brake. why? because you have enough traction your front wheel can do so much braking that your rear wheel is useless. (read: off the ground) low traction means low braking forces spread over both brakes 80/20. why? low traction means you can't apply the same kind of forces against the road without sliding, so less force spread over more tires means you're less likely to slide.

but chances are, 9 out of 10 times when people panic brake, they really didn't need to brake at all.

[antiant]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

Get bent! When numerous people take their time to respond with help to a persons question to receive a rude response back from that person I am more than entitled to feel agreeved for the lack of gratitude for me giving up my time for free. And where did sexism come into this? I treat everyone equal, I don't reserve language for man nor woman nor child, it's exactly this form of positive sexism that is the remnant of an archaic society that needs to die before we can reach true gender equality.

Uh.. no one mentioned sexism, you did. Typical predictable and formulaic response in the form of psychologial projection. Having a decent dialogue doesn't include ad hominem attacks, yet you used them due to your ill conceived perception of what was being conveyed. If you didn't like the response you got, then maybe you should ask for clarification, instead of telling people to go **** themselves up the ass. On that note, I don't care to entertain ego's or deter an informative thread, so that's all I have to say. Have a nice day.

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by antiant

Uh.. no one mentioned sexism, you did. Typical predictable and formulaic response in the form of psychologial projection. Having a decent dialogue doesn't include ad hominem attacks, yet you used them due to your ill conceived perception of what was being conveyed. If you didn't like the response you got, then maybe you should ask for clarification, instead of telling people to go **** themselves up the ass. On that note, I don't care to entertain ego's or deter an informative thread, so that's all I have to say. Have a nice day.

Originally Posted by Motofool

It is just me, or this is an improper way to talk to a lady?

And a nice day to you

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

.........When numerous people take their time to respond with help to a persons question to receive a rude response back from that person I am more than entitled to feel agreeved for the lack of gratitude for me giving up my time for free.

If you get aggravated by the ruddiness of others, how can you be rude yourself?

You may have the right to feel your good effort unappreciated, but nothing gives you the right to be rude.

Originally Posted by Joshorilla

.......it's exactly this form of positive sexism that is the remnant of an archaic society that needs to die before we can reach true gender equality.

I am part of that archaic society and we all will eventually die, taking with us our bad ideas and our good manners.

Hope the new advanced society reach better achievements than us, regarding rights and opportunities for both sexes and anything trapped in-between.

However, good manners make human relations easier and better, and they have nothing to do with social rights.

Courtesy toward women is much more than that; it is a form to express our appreciation for all the good they do in this world, for the children we wouldn't be able to have without their maternal instinct.

"Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use.' - Emily Post

[Joshorilla]

It's been a bad week so I am in a bit of a grump, you're right, I have been a bit rude and I apologise.

But seriously, just learn better rear brake control!

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by BlackNinja8

We spend so much time and money on farkles as noobs I don't think there is enough emphasis on performance mods like stainless lines, upgraded pads, and supspension fine tuning.

Amen!! The best things you can do for a 250 are some basic suspension and brake changes.

The best part is suspension changes don't break the bank.

EX500 springs are great (and cheap) for light riders (I suggest searching other OEM bike parts if you need a higher spring rate to save money), and basic SS lines can be had for ~$50. Fork oil is ~$10/bottle, PVC (for fork spacers) is ~$2.50 for 2 feet, and adjusting your rear preload is free.

[alex.s]

if you dont want to lock up the tires, don't get fancy brakes. get crappy brakes that don't work... you'll never lock them up!

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by mgentz

the rear brake is your friend. You need to learn how to use it properly.

I ride dirt bikes, motards and street bikes. The technique is different for each but I use the rear brake on all types. Once you get REALLY advanced, you can even "back it in."

In "oh sh!t" stops, you need to know how to use 100% of the front brake. From there, the back brake will be available initially, but it will become less effective as more weight transfers to the front. Should you lift the rear off the ground...nothing. Improper use of the rear, such as in the crash you mentioned, is cause for many unnecessary accidents.

There was even a youtube video of a professional racer, i want to say Pridmore, showing that proper use of both brakes gets it done faster and in less distance, but I can't search for it right now....

Rojo uses his rear brake and has said so, however, from what I gather, it is only in "oh sh!t" moments and then he uses it hard.

So when I'm racing a road race bike I NEVER touch the rear brake unless the situation is FUBAR and I'm exiting the course where you shouldn't be exiting if you know what I mean.

On the street if I'm riding fast(I really should be going this fast) I don't use the rear brake unless I believe the situation has a chance of entering FUBAR status. I think this has happened once when my rear tire whent down to cords.

If I'm riding normal street speed(still faster then most) I use my rear brake occasionally to scrub speed mid corner because I'm probably much lower in the RPMs then when going fast and have less engine braking to work with. But it's a very light application of rear brake when I do.

Riding in the street during rain or wet roads I use the rear brake lightly about 40% of the time. And I'd say it results in only 20% of the braking force. When Racing in the rain I still don't used the rear brake but on a track you can plan ahead with entry speed so no adjustment to corner speed are needed.

This is what works for me and my style is always adapting and everchanging to conditions and equipment. Even among racers I'm a bit of an odity so my style dosn't work for everyone.

My ideal motorcycle would be a high compression ducati with no slipper clutch

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Gurk

You don't have to avoid the rear brake. You have to avoid slamming it.

Ways to avoid slamming it:
A) Don't f*cking slam it.
B) Shave your rear brake pads.
C) Shave your rear rotor
D) Adjust your rear brake on your rear set so that you have to really reach to the pedal to apply brakes (as opposed to having it right up your foot)
E) Install a heavy spring on the lever so that it has more resistance.
F) Don't f*cking slam it.

Take your pick!

I prefer A&F but if you need C I got that covered as well

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I prefer A&F but if you need C I got that covered as well

Looks HOT

[folky15]

I may get ridiculed for this one....but does anyone else purposefully lock up their rear brake while coming to a stop? I do it occasionally when there isn't really anyone else around.

Somehow I've convinced myself that by practicing this, I will be more accustomed to how the bike will react in different situations. Plus, it's just kinda fun!

But I've never ever seen anyone else on a street bike doing the same thing, so maybe I'm just an oddball. i dunno (full disclosure - I've only got about 7k miles of riding experience)

[Yakaru]

Folky: You're probably risking your tire lifespan; I got some nasty road wear in my tires from just one [admitably nasty] lockup. Plus you'll stop faster if you don't lock it up, and be more in control.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by folky15

I may get ridiculed for this one....but does anyone else purposefully lock up their rear brake while coming to a stop? I do it occasionally when there isn't really anyone else around.

Somehow I've convinced myself that by practicing this, I will be more accustomed to how the bike will react in different situations. Plus, it's just kinda fun!

But I've never ever seen anyone else on a street bike doing the same thing, so maybe I'm just an oddball. i dunno (full disclosure - I've only got about 7k miles of riding experience)

There's only one way to learn how to control it when it locks up & slides, no amount of reading or YouTube will teach it.

You'll probably have less of a brown trouser moment if you have a rear slide, I've had a few slides in wet weather, you don't have time to think, it's a gut instinct or muscle memory reaction.

[BlackNinja8]

Originally Posted by folky15

I may get ridiculed for this one....but does anyone else purposefully lock up their rear brake while coming to a stop? I do it occasionally when there isn't really anyone else around

I do it too. Usually early on in my morning commute. It's my way of testing how warm my tires are so that I now how much traction I have when I hit the parkway. Not a major slide, just maybe the last 5 feet of a stop.

[n4mwd]

I have deliberately locked the rears when its wet just to test the road conditions when moving slow.

Regarding Jiggles latest accident, the correct action seems like it should have been to not hit either brake and to just switch lanes. The lane to the right didn't look like there was anything there.

You can also get out of a fishtail rear slide and then re-apply the brakes correctly, but only if you do it properly. You have to time the release of your brakes when the bike is perfectly straight inline. So the farther out of alignment the bike is when you release the brakes, the more likely you will high side and get killed.

[rojoracing53]

The only time you really need good rear braking skills is when escaping from the Red and Blue gang members in a tight city setting.

[CC Cowboy]

Rear brake, trackday, off track riding. Other than that, you're riding over your head.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Thanks cowboy, any advice on how to keep my index finger on the lever without losing fine control of the throttle or cramping?

Get adjustable levers from China for $35. This will allow you to move the brake lever closer to the throttle where you fingers can reach it without cramping.

Loosen the bolt holding the front brake assembly to the clipon, rotate the whole thing down until it's in position that's comfortable for you to be able to hold the throttle with your thumb and ring/pinkie fingers.

On the street I always cover brake with 2 fingers and throttle with 3 (actually it's more of a base of the thumb, where it meets the palm).

You will NOT lose "fine" control over throttle (it's a 250...what fine control? ). If you find not being able to hold on to the throttle, get grippier throttle tubes like Renthal diamond grips for $15.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

..........Plus you'll stop faster if you don't lock it up, and be more in control.

Some more information for you, Yakaru; the science behind the front brake techniques:

http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tip...ing_potential/

[csmith12]

Not that I have a problem with covering the brake while riding on the street but why don't they teach this during the MSF?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Not that I have a problem with covering the brake while riding on the street but why don't they teach this during the MSF?

Not only do they not teach it -- they teach you NOT to. You lose points if you do it for the final test as well.

Originally Posted by motofool

Some more information for you, Yakaru; the science behind the front brake techniques:

Excellent article, thanks

[lgk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Not that I have a problem with covering the brake while riding on the street but why don't they teach this during the MSF?

i'm not sure.
they tell you to cover the clutch, though.

maybe its so the new riders don't get to snatch the brakes.

has anyone taken the advanced course?

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by lgk

has anyone taken the advanced course?

Nah. I went to the track instead.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Nah. I went to the track instead.

after much thought, you convinced me.