why is countersteer explained so poorly?

[jschorr]

I am teaching my wife how to ride, i think this is a bad idea because she is an aggressive driver and the last thing a road raging woman needs is more speed and less protection, but i love her and she wants to learn. she is pretty good so far, were up to how to corner.

there i am killing myself on how to explain how to initiate turns at speed. i know that i countersteer, though really i never thought about it or even call it countersteer, it is simply taking a turn. so i did what most people do these days, grabbed my smartphone and googled it,my goodness, after reading all this I'm not sure if i ever did any of what people are saying countersteer is!!

most of the time i start a turn with knee pressure on the outside and peg pressure in the in with a bit of body lean. When i am riding aggressive, or want that diving bird of prey feeling i push my inside bar towards my front axle. my outside hand has no pressure on the bar, and never have i pulled back on the outside bar to start a turn.

as for what google came up with what an odd way to say it. Now i understand that by pushing my bike over, weather with my bars or with my knees, i am actually turning the bike in the opposite direction i want to turn yet the way it is talked about it makes me wonder how many new riders have jerked the bike to the left lane of traffic when trying to turn right. wouldn't it be better to explain it as a push your bar to your axle in the direction you want to turn? Though it is more like getting your tires out from under you so you can lean the bike over than doing a quick double turn. for that matter didn't almost every kid lean to do this on there bike? (that is how my wife finally got it)

so what about you guys, when your teaching someone how to ride how do you explain countersteer?

[NevadaWolf]

I don't actively remember someone explaining counter steering to me when I was learning, but the motorcycle was easy to pick up as I'd ridden bicycles for years.

However, since then, I've found I like this part of the Twist of the Wrist video the best for explaining to those "use your body weight" folks. The movie is a great one for me even though i am only an infrequent track rider and a sedate mountain rider.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[crazymadbastard]

The way MSF teaches, is to Look where you want to go, roll off throttle lean and push the bar on the side that you are leaning into and then smoothly roll on the throttle. You can down load the MSF course booklet online.

The way I explain is that a bike turns by leaning, the way you lean the bike is by pushing on the bar on the side you wish to lean it. My reasoning is to think about a car, when you turn the wheel at speed to the right it leans left and vise versa. Because the car has more than 2 wheels it is forced to steer in the direction of the wheels, but still leans in opposition.

[GHill762]

if you want to turn right push forward with your right hand.. she'll get the concept really quick without even knowing she's doing it honestly.. a lot of people ride without understanding the physics of it.. just take her out to a big empty parking lot and let her figure it out on her own..

[ally99]

Sounds to me like she needs a certified instructor to teach her the skills she needs to operate a bike safely. Road rage does not suit riders well as we ALWAYS lose when we are up against a cage. I'd HIGHLY recommend the MSF course. Also, Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough is a thorough, yet easy beginner's read that explains countersteering well.
Frankly she needs to learn the low speed stuff first which means countersteering doesn't come much into play initially. You say she's "up to cornering" in her learning. What has she mastered so far?

Sometimes simplicity is best:
http://www.wikihow.com/Countersteer-%28Motorcycle%29

[alex.s]

it's really scary to hear so many people have no idea what they are doing


you turn the bike by leaning, but the only reliable way to change your lean angle is by turning the bars. when you turn the bars, it turns the bike just like a car. unlike a car, when you turn the bike, it leans in the opposite direction ("tips over") but because we are light and have these nice big spinning wheels, we can balance on the tip over as we turn back the other way.

so when you want to turn to the left, you point the bars to the right, which makes the bottom of the bike move to the right at first, which tips the top of the bike to the left, which means you can then stop pushing the bars to the right and they will naturally go to the left and you will start going to the left.

[GHill762]

Originally Posted by alex.s

it's really scary to hear so many people have no idea what they are doing

to whom are you referring?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by alex.s

it's really scary to hear so many people have no idea what they are doing
so when you want to turn to the left, you point the bars to the right, which makes the bottom of the bike move to the right at first, which tips the top of the bike to the left, which means you can then stop pushing the bars to the right and they will naturally go to the left and you will start going to the left.

Clear as........
Glass? Mud?

[flitecontrol]

First, I would suggest that the OP have his wife trained by a professional. The MSF basic rider course would be a good choice. Friend and family trained riders have more accidents than those who received training, and their accidents are more severe according to the Hurt Report.

Second, if your wife knows how to ride a bicycle, she already knows how to countersteer. It's the same on a motorized or non-motorized bike. Don't confuse her (or anyone else) with the physics involved. If she already knows how to do it, why try to explain it?

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

If she already knows how to do it, why try to explain it?

To have more control, if you know why and how you can decide when to best and how apply it.

[flitecontrol]

So you're saying a person has to understand the physics/mechanics of countersteering in order to be proficient at it? What about the kids riding MX? They're pretty young to understand the physics and can probably steer better than many on this forum!

Countersteering should be automatic. If you have to think about it, you can loose valuable time in an emergency.

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

So you're saying a person has to understand the physics/mechanics of countersteering in order to be proficient at it? What about the kids riding MX? They're pretty young to understand the physics and can probably steer better than many on this forum!

Countersteering should be automatic. If you have to think about it, you can loose valuable time in an emergency.

I normally steer away from arguing. BUT if you know what you need to do and are not proficient at it, you can consciously work on any skill until you are proficient at it and it becomes second nature. This is true for any skill.

[jschorr]

so...had to watch that video a few times. it is....well ok, they say body steering doesn't work then at 4.40 they say yes body steering does create countersteer.

it was also stated that when you lean with your body you naturally push on the inside bar.....isn't that what you want for proper body position during a turn? because the same unconscious thinking will also weight the outside peg when you hit your lean angel and start to control your curve

and just to clarify were not talking taking corkscrews at high speed, were just talking every day riding.

yes there will be a riding course if she wants to do this, no i don't want her to because of her driving/bicycle habits and i am working on talking her out of it but she is a strong willed woman.

she can do most of the slow speed, slalom, figure 8, emergency stop and swerve. (though she still forgets to pull the clutch sometimes on emergency stop.)

alex.s i like they way you described the gyroscopic effect, nice big spinning wheels, going to use that.

when i drop into a corner though my body follows the line even though the wheels go to the outside of the curve. so the idea of double steer is deceiving. where it happens, how it feels is different.

[choneofakind]

Proper body positioning does not give input to the bar because you have to be able to support your body from bumps without altering the line that the bike takes. That is why they point out wrong BP (the kind that inadvertently applies countersteer). It is always the bars that steer the bike, not the body weighting. The body weighting just affects the center of gravity of the bike, and can keep it more stable while leaned if used properly

[subxero]

I think the word counter steer it's self is not enough to describe the entire physical concept of what happens and it is so much more easily understood given a few riding exercises. It is one of those things that I like to know what needs to be done and just do it and plead ignorance when it comes to the actual understanding of what is actually happening.

Get on your bike, go for a nice cruise and when in some light turns only use your right hand to control the bike, you will either grasp what needs to be done or crash real quick.

I think riding with only your right hand on the throttle bar really highlights the idea of "push" and ultimately pull for left handers since you only have 1 hand on.

JMO

[dfox]

a huge part of why a motorcycle turns while in a lean is camber thrust, not the direction of the front wheel. counter-steering helps provide the lean angle, camber thrust does the rest.

especially at high lean angles, the front wheel can be turned towards the outside of the actual turn (not in line with direction of travel). In those cases, camber thrust is really the only major force keeping you in the turn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_thrust




all of this should be intuitive to someone on a motorcycle though. You shouldn't need to understand the physics to properly ride a motorcycle. Riding a bicycle at higher speeds (down hill) should teach you most of what you need to know.

[Desmoluci]

Push right, go right.

Push left, go left.

[capt_bugaloo]

Push right, go right.
Push left, go left.

That's the way I was taught.

The safety council instructor brought in a large bicycle wheel on an handheld hub. Everyone in the class was told to hold on to the axle piece with both hands, the instructor gave the wheel a good spin, and then students were told to try pushing with either left or right hand.

Sure enough, the wheel banked over to the side which was pushed forward.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by jschorr

it was also stated that when you lean with your body you naturally push on the inside bar.....isn't that what you want for proper body position during a turn? because the same unconscious thinking will also weight the outside peg when you hit your lean angel and start to control your curve

Not necessarily. If you're riding correctly and you're loose on the bars, you're holding onto your bike with your outside knee/leg in a tight corner, not holding on tightly to the bars. If you "naturally push on the inside bar" when you move into the correct body position, you may be too tight on the bars. It actually requires a physical push on the bar to get the bike set into position...set BP first and then push when you're ready to start your lean. If you PUSH the left bar, you'll lean/turn left. If you PUSH the right bar, you'll lean/turn right.
The dude above who said you countersteer on bicycles without even realizing it is correct, but the speeds and angles most street cyclists take don't require as much of an understanding of countersteering as when you're pushing the limits of speed and traction on a motorcycle. It does help to understand countersteering and how it actually works.

[alex.s]

when you weigh 10 times more than the bike, body english has a bigger effect on the bike. when the bike weighs 3 times more than you, body english does almost nothing

[jeffb502]

I rode 1000s of road miles on my bicycle as an adult without knowing what counter steering was.

One turn in particular I was doing about 20-22mph with a tail wind, making a left turn from one road to another. I was turning against two lanes of oncoming traffic with a 45mph speed limit at a non-signalized 90 degree intersection. I entered the turn a bit faster than usual and leaned to turn like I usually did. I knew I was coming in a bit too hot, then I had that feeling of "I might not make this corner, I need to lean more", target fixated on the curb at the corner of the intersection, tensed up, tried to lean more (but didn't know how to counter steer so didn't get much more lean out of it), and barely made the turn.

If I had known what counter steering was I think it would have been a non-issue. Just press forward on the left bar to lean a bit more and make the turn.

I think many people think you can turn a motorcycle like a bicycle, but like alex.s said above, it's a lot harder to muscle a 400lb motorcycle through a corner than a 20lb bicycle when you don't know what you're doing. Once you're dealing with moving larger amounts of weight around things like technique, leverage, and physics become more important.

The MSF course explains counter steering very well. I think some kind of formal training should be required for all people wishing to obtain a motorcycle (or 4 wheeled vehicle for that matter) license. I'd probably be dead or seriously injured by now if I tried to obtain a motorcycle license via the no formal training path that my state allows.

[Brian]

Sadly, whenever the term "counter-steering" is explained to me I still don't understand one bit of it. Even though I am a new rider, I've been increasingly cautious of my cornering and I've gotten better at making a turn by pushing DOWN on the handlebars in the direction I want to go.

It was until I hopped on my bike, got speed into a small turn and actually tried pushing DOWN on the bars (towards the ground, into the corner) it would effortlessly make the turn. I didn't find a need to physically turn my handlebars unless I was making a U-turn or something, or maybe I am? and counter-steering is actually all instinctual? instead of what I thought was pushing them away from you, this would just make the wheel turn in that direction, am I not correct? This is literally driving me crazy.

And I'm still unsure why the term PUSH RIGHT GO RIGHT PUSH LEFT GO LEFT is so popular, are you pushing DOWN or are you pushing STRAIGHT?!?! The MSF had everyone sit on their bikes and physically turn the handlebars left and run, and through out the rest of the course I just went with my instincts completely ignoring what the hell that meant, I did try to ask the professor and some other people if they understood it and they all seemed to get it..

This is the video I finally found that showed me how you should be pushing down on the bars in a turn, watch the whole thing:

Link to original page on YouTube.



These types of pictures didn't help me one bit:


TL-DR: I believe I still don't get counter-steering but if it's pushing down into the corner instead of TURNING the bars then yes, I feel.

[jeffb502]

I usually push forward on the bar in the direction I want to turn.

I picture it as, push forward on right bar, the front wheel turns left, the bike naturally falls (leans) to the right. From there I catch/balance it by applying pressure in the direction I want it to lean.

[jeffb502]

Oh and that was a great video. At about 5:35 he reminded me of a rally racer's co-driver.

[jschorr]

Thanks for the help. I think she is getting a much better grasp on thamechanics of this.

If you ever want to take a hard honest look at your riding, try teaching someone else. Good example is she asked why when I get on I look down to put it in first, I automatically said so I don't miss the gear lever. When I think about it I really am checking the petcock and the kickstand...and making sure I don't miss the lever. So many things that I just do without thinking about.

So yeah, the bike wheel was a great idea. It will let her experience the forces in a controlled environment. And thanks for the wiki on camber. She will get that right away.

I wish I could say that in my everyday riding I have good enough body position that I don't effect the bike. Honestly I get lazy, I push off the bars when I move, usually don't put my head down far enough and sometimes don't move my but at all (probably why peg feelers don't last to long) but I am aware my sloppiness and get my self together when it is more than just cruising. I am pretty good about the light touch, more about do with my arthritis than anything else though.

I know I just have to let her just go try, but I want her to know the why of what is happening as well as what to do. I learned by just riding and correcting mistakes as I went, I fell more than a few times, I don't want that for her. Esp because she is on my bike

And yeah brian. That is why I started this thread.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

I normally steer away from arguing. BUT if you know what you need to do and are not proficient at it, you can consciously work on any skill until you are proficient at it and it becomes second nature. This is true for any skill.

Nothing wrong with discussing two or more sides of an issue, or sharing an opinion. The trick is to be able to disagree without being disagreeable, and so far we've accomplished that.

Any time a person rides a two wheeled vehicle, the rider is constantly countersteering, whether they realize it or not. It's done when leaving the driveway, changing lane position or any other change in the bike's direction of travel, no matter how minute. It becomes so second nature/natural that most riders don't even realize they are doing it. So riders are "practicing" countersteering during their entire ride. There's really no need to set aside a designated time or place to practice countersteering IMO.

Doing so reinforces the idea that conscious thought is needed to countersteer. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The rider who faces an emergency situation and has to think to themselves, "Hey, do I push left/pull right or push right/pull left?" to get out of danger has just lost precious time. It should be done automatically.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Brian

And I'm still unsure why the term PUSH RIGHT GO RIGHT PUSH LEFT GO LEFT is so popular, are you pushing DOWN or are you pushing STRAIGHT?!?!

To turn the handlebars (and initiate the turn), you need to push forward. Pushing straight down will do nothing. If pushing down is doing something, it's because you're applying some forward force to the bars in addition to the downward force.

That's why proper body position has you drop your elbows to allow for greater leverage on the bars. All your effort can be used to push the bars forward (or pull back on the opposite side). Any wasted effort by trying to turn the front fork in a direction it doesn't go is just tiring you out sooner.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by jschorr

I am teaching my wife how to ride...........there i am killing myself on how to explain how to initiate turns at speed. i know that i countersteer, though really i never thought about it or even call it countersteer, it is simply taking a turn..........
so what about you guys, when your teaching someone how to ride how do you explain countersteer?

Think of it as using your handlebar as a lever to roll your bike over into and out of a lean.
The lean angle is just to balance the bike when turning, exactly as you balance it when riding it vertically.

Originally Posted by Brian

Sadly, whenever the term "counter-steering" is explained to me I still don't understand one bit of it...........

Then take a look at this:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=473751

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Think of it as using your handlebar as a lever to roll your bike over into and out of a lean.
The lean angle is just to balance the bike when turning, exactly as you balance it when riding it vertically.



Then take a look at this:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=473751

Good thread with helpful videos. I'm more visual than having someone draw it out or explain the physics behind it. So that doesn't answer the question is counter-steering instinctual or it's something you learn to do?

If I've been turning all this time "wrong" then is counter-steering always right? because it still doesn't feel right to me.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

Good thread with helpful videos. I'm more visual than having someone draw it out or explain the physics behind it. So that doesn't answer the question is counter-steering instinctual or it's something you learn to do?

If I've been turning all this time "wrong" then is counter-steering always right? because it still doesn't feel right to me.

In my opinion, counter-steering at moderate speeds and in non-stressful situations is instinctual.
There is a very solid reason behind so many new riders turning wide and out of the road when they could have made a turn or rolling straight onto a car that suddenly stopped in front of them.
For those cases, counter-steering is something that they should have learned to do.

The good thing about steering a bike is that we only have two options: one is always wrong (it makes us go in the wrong direction) and the the other is always right (it produces the effect that we want).

After some trial and error, producing the proper input to bank and turn onto the desired direction becomes natural and effortless, which is what you have been doing.

For lazy steering that is enough.
The problem becomes a little more critical when we don't have the luxury of time, when our brain is overwhelmed by the speed at which unexpected things happen.

Quick, strong and decisive inputs are a necessity in two conditions: riding fast and reacting to an emergency.
Rolling fast adds the inertia factor, which makes the bike "heavier" or more resistive to changes in direction and lateral roll.

The little time we have and/or the nature of panic work against us if we insist on trying the trial and error method.
Hence, the next link for you and for the OP:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114372

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Brian

Sadly, whenever the term "counter-steering" is explained to me I still don't understand one bit of it. Even though I am a new rider, I've been increasingly cautious of my cornering and I've gotten better at making a turn by pushing DOWN on the handlebars in the direction I want to go.

It was until I hopped on my bike, got speed into a small turn and actually tried pushing DOWN on the bars (towards the ground, into the corner) it would effortlessly make the turn.

And I'm still unsure why the term PUSH RIGHT GO RIGHT PUSH LEFT GO LEFT is so popular, are you pushing DOWN or are you pushing STRAIGHT?!?!

Pushing straight down alone does nothing. Keith Code demonstrates this in his DVD and book, "Twist of the Wrist II", which I highly recommend if you've never read it! When steering, you should be pushing straight, forearms parallel to the ground. Your core (abs, back) should be holding you up and your arms should be loose and bent at the elbow.

[jschorr]

^^^^^Is that the way you ride all the time? No just sitting up and looking round. Maybe a little hand on The hip action? It is a very serious way to ride.

Edit: I don't mean that in a bad way by any means.

[adouglas]

I like to explain it away from the bike to build a basic understanding without the added confusion of having to actually operate the bike. It might just be the way my brain works, but I have a much easier time learning something if I know what's going on. I don't take "arbitrary" direction well.

Now, we know that if you lean a wheel over, it will want to roll in a circle, right? this is obvious, or should be, and is easy to demonstrate. Go roll any hoop or disc down the street and watch what happens once it starts to lean.

So the object is to get the wheel leaned over. The question, is, how does counter steering do that?

Take a quarter, or a Pringles lid, or a hula hoop, or any stand-in for a wheel. heck, you can even use a bicycle wheel if you like. Set it up on edge and roll slowly, with your hands on the rim. This is normal, straight-ahead motion. When I say "slowly" I mean dead slow.. you're not rolling it across the room or anything like that. This is a table-top demonstration.

Now, without leaning the wheel over, turn it 90 degrees to one side but keep moving it in the original direction. This simulates momentum, which is a key concept here... turning the wheel, say, to the left does not instantaneously cause the bike to go left... the mass of the bike will want to keep going straight.

What happens? The wheel "trips" and falls in the direction opposite the way it was turned. Turn it to the left, and it falls to its right. Duh. Obvious, right?

90 degrees is extreme. So do it again but only turn it 45 degrees away from the direction of travel. Same thing, right? Turn left, fall right.

Now do it with an even smaller angle, more like what you'd actually do on a bike. Same thing happens again.

Since it's now leaned over to the right, it will want to roll in a circle in the direction of the lean. Hey presto... you're turning the bike to the right by turning the wheel to the left.

This is precisely how counter steering works.

[Ninjinsky]

The number one thing about teaching countersteering is to move the bars VERY gently, almost pressure rather than movement.

I seem to recall (I'll try it tomorrow) that at very low speed you steer 'normally' and as you go faster you countersteer and that with older bikes like my old cb750 k1 there is a zone of instability at about 15 or 20 mph which is neither nor and it would wobble slightly.

[alex.s]

i donno about that, i crank the **** out of the bars... except when coming back up, then its smooth, just pull on the inside bar a bit

[jschorr]

Adouglas, that was excellent.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Since it's now leaned over to the right, it will want to roll in a circle in the direction of the lean.

i may be wrong but i think the actual turning of the bike is actually done by the front tire turning into the turn. notice when you are sliding your front tire how you just go straight while leaned over. if it was the lean turning the bike you would continue to turn but when the front tire slides you go straight. because its the front tire turning into the turn to keep the bike upright that is doing the turning

if you look at videos of wheels that have come off of a vehicle, they are often at a steep angle even 45 degrees or so but still going along straight just fine until they slow down

[b.miller123]

Originally Posted by jschorr

why is countersteer explained so poorly?

People, in general, are complete morons. That is why countersteering is explained so poorly. "Countersteering" isn't a thing you do or don't do. It is literally how a motorcycle goes around turns when traveling faster than parking lot speeds. You can't "not countersteer", at least not if you want to keep the bike upright. You and everyone else who has ever ridden a bike faster than 10mph "do" it every time you throw a leg over. You can't just decide to "do" physics. You can learn how things work and apply that knowledge to make a motorcycle go where you want it.

I'd suggest not trying to teach her how to ride. Let someone else do it. It really depends on your relationship, but when I tried to teach my wife how to use a manual transmission it lasted about 10 minutes before we both gave up. She thought I was lecturing or getting mad at her, and I couldn't figure out why she wasn't doing what I told her.

Chances are that you have developed some bad habits of your own, and you'll pass them down to her. An instructor at an MSF or similar class would be a good bet. If my wife ever wants to learn how to ride, I'll probably take the class with her just to see if I can learn anything new (and I've been riding for 15+ years).

[capt_bugaloo]

Originally Posted by b.miller123

People, in general, are complete morons.

Sadly, yes.

[jschorr]

notice when you are sliding your front tire how you just go straight while leaned over

it is from the momentum overcoming the traction, your momentum is going forward and your tire is redirecting that force into a curve. when the force of the tire becomes overwhelmed or decreased it is overwhelmed by the push to go strait, same with a tire off of a bike. as the forward force decreases the camber effect will take hold.

You can't just decide to "do" physics. You can learn how things work and apply that knowledge to make a motorcycle go where you want it.

i'm sorry man but using knowledge of the physical world to make a desired result is exactly that, doing physics.


but your probably right about me teaching her, it will end bad. i taught her to drive stick too, it still comes up.