May 28th, 2013, 08:02 AM | #1 |
Freedom for Germany
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Italians really know how to tune a Ninja
Today I found the following info in the net and surprise, no joke a perfect tuned 250 has more power with a higher rpm limit then the 300 (maybe it's cos of the better ignition like the first gen is also better then the newgen).
It says the thick line is the 250 (rev limit 13462 rpm) This is the values (it's italian-ps, that means without aggregates - so at least subtract rd. 3 to 4 ps) And this at least the document And yes, the price for the race ready 250 is 41% more... |
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May 28th, 2013, 08:03 AM | #2 |
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(now let's put those same mods on the 300 )
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May 28th, 2013, 08:35 AM | #3 |
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Why is the max power recorded at 127 km/h (79 mph)?
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May 28th, 2013, 08:38 AM | #4 |
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Dynos typically use 4th gear (or whichever gear is closest to a 1:1 ratio). The theory is there is the least friction and therefore the least lost power in that gear.
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May 28th, 2013, 08:53 AM | #5 |
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in summary, a modified 250 has slightly more top end than a stock 300?
the 300 graph still looks more fun to ride though, those extra little torque bumps lower in the RPMS's are worth more than a slight increase in hp at the high end. Area under the curve ftw. guess it shows that it's not really worth a power upgrade if you already own a 250, and wouldn't mod the 300. |
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May 28th, 2013, 09:03 AM | #6 |
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Yeah, but look at the costs... :roleyes:
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May 28th, 2013, 10:16 AM | #7 |
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With that much cost you might as well just get a bigger bike.
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May 28th, 2013, 10:21 AM | #8 |
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May 28th, 2013, 10:40 AM | #10 |
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May 28th, 2013, 11:21 AM | #11 |
ninjette.org sage
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May 28th, 2013, 11:26 AM | #12 |
I'm crazy,your excuse is?
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makes sense that the 300 makes more torque down low due to dispalcement, however at the top it dies due to the head not flowing enough to keep up with the air requirements of the bigger motor.
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May 28th, 2013, 11:53 AM | #13 |
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May 28th, 2013, 12:10 PM | #14 |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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Also the 300 is stock....
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May 28th, 2013, 12:17 PM | #15 |
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Am I reading this right? 45 hp and 20 ft lb of torque.
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May 28th, 2013, 01:07 PM | #16 |
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surprised me too.
i didnt think it was possible to get 40hp with NA
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May 28th, 2013, 01:10 PM | #17 |
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They use a different measurement. It is not hp. Kind of like how some use nm and we use lb-ft.
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May 28th, 2013, 01:46 PM | #18 | |
wat
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Quote:
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May 28th, 2013, 02:02 PM | #19 | |
ninjette.org sage
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Quote:
"you" wasn't directed towards you (snake), it was used as the "collective you", or the informal third person use of you, referring to anyone. to make it easier to understand, I'll put it in the more formal third person. If one has a 250, but wants a bike that has as much hp as the 300, one doesn't need to buy a new bike to do it, and can probably save money since one already has a 250. |
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May 28th, 2013, 02:17 PM | #20 |
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i don't know how their economy works, but i dont see how anyone could spend an additional $7200, to make a 250 to a comparable 300....
unless the taxes are past the $10k mark i would seriously think about just improving a new 300, or getting a 600.
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May 28th, 2013, 02:18 PM | #21 | |
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Quote:
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May 28th, 2013, 02:24 PM | #22 |
wat
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maybe you missed my point where the difference between 45 hp and 45 cv is somewhere less than 1%
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May 28th, 2013, 02:27 PM | #23 |
wat
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they are race bike engines. the point is that you have engine rules. so you could not actually run a 300 against 250s for example. so you are forced to buy the 250... but the 250 has more things you can do to it to get more power out apparently... so its more expensive. it only makes sense if you are already in a 250 class and have lots of 250 stuff and are deep into a 250 league.
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May 28th, 2013, 02:37 PM | #24 | |
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Quote:
I'm kind of curious how long the motor/trans lasts before a tear down.
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May 28th, 2013, 02:39 PM | #25 |
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I know it can be done. My engine builder said we can get 45 hp. But he is taking too long. I am getting ready to pull the plug and send the motor to another motorcyle engine builder I know.
The secret to 45 hp is in the head. Bigger valves ,ports and different cam profiles.
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May 28th, 2013, 02:57 PM | #26 | |
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Quote:
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May 28th, 2013, 04:10 PM | #27 |
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Not porting as in just grinding out the existing ports.
I do that and don't get near 45 hp. But there IS room to enlarge the valves by 1mm. With bigger valves AND making the port shape to optimize flow at the desired RPM. And having the compression to pump the air. and the cams holding the valve open long enough and far enough to flow the volume of air and fuel you need . Then you make this type of power. Then the valve springs need to be up to the job and the clutch and on and on. The 250cc moto GP bikes had decades of work and millions of dollars poured into them. This is an engine out of a 3500 dollar starter bike. It never stops amazing me how good this little engine is.
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Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
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May 28th, 2013, 06:08 PM | #28 | |
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Quote:
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May 28th, 2013, 09:24 PM | #29 |
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May 28th, 2013, 09:49 PM | #30 |
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May 29th, 2013, 02:07 AM | #31 | |
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Quote:
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May 29th, 2013, 02:56 AM | #32 |
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I was just looking at this topic & wondered
When the 300 first came out the first thing I looked at was how they got the extra displacement As we know they increased the stroke from 41.2 to 49mm but kept the bore 62mm exactly the same as the 250 Bore/Stroke gives a number & most sport or rev type bikes make a high number high being say above 1.2 & up Square or torque type engines make a low number below that Ninja 250 = 1.50 Honda 600rr = 1.57 Yamaha R6 is 1.57 Kawasaki ZX6R 1.57 till 2013 then 1.48 Yamaha R1 1.50 Ducati Panigale a whopping 1.84 Amazing eh how close those RR types are? So Ninja 250 was in good company in this regard Now look at the Ninja 300... B/S = 1.26 ??? Actually dumb-ing revs down or torque-ing it up...Making it more "user friendly" Not unlike the new Honda 500's which not surprisingly B/S= 1.0 Nothing wrong with that of course All fine & well Made me wonder about the other direction....Bore increase instead They have 64 & 66mm pistons available or at least do for the 2012 models so out of curiosity I looked at those numbers The 64's yield a 265cc engine The 66's yield a 282cc engine What would that do to the B/S number keeping the same stroke as the 250 With the 64's it would be 1.55 With the 66's it would be 1.60 Right around that 1.57 number the RR's like so much I kind of wish this is the direction they went with the 300 Sure I understand everything is heading towards commuting town driving etc. But still wonder what that would have been like. |
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May 29th, 2013, 03:56 AM | #33 |
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The first thing I would do to a 300 is bore and compression increase. 66mm an 12.5 to one. Then a bunch of head work. I just need an engine to work with.
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May 29th, 2013, 04:43 AM | #34 | |
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Quote:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2013-13-4...item43ba54a725 although i paid less than that for the whole bike. |
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May 29th, 2013, 07:32 AM | #35 |
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That is what I paid for a 250 on 2008. The next one I bought was 200. I will have to wait.
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Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
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May 29th, 2013, 07:33 AM | #36 | |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
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Quote:
Oh wait it does
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May 29th, 2013, 07:52 AM | #37 |
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They both have the same redline as set by the factory, but with the rev limiter adjusted, the 250 would be able to spin faster at the same safety margin. Rev limits are typically set by a max piston speed. Engines with larger stroke have a higher piston speed for the same engine speed. The 250 and 300 have very similar dimensions, except the 300 has a longer stroke.
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May 29th, 2013, 07:53 AM | #38 |
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May 29th, 2013, 09:56 PM | #39 |
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A lil more info, after I'd read their race regulations for the series.
- Minimum weight is 123! kg (271 lbs, front stay and rear end are replaced with parts from aluminum). - the diameter of the tb's at the 2-fiddy are extended to 30mm (from 28mm). - there's many work done for the crankshaft and they have special camshafts, bigger valves ect. - the whole engine at least is redone. - they use a complete new replacement-ecu, fully programmable. - the 250ss is a real race bike - it also uses a slipper clutch (Type is the STM Evoluzione FKW-S070 which uses the oem-plates). For more information you can look here: http://www.scuderiaplatini.it/ Look how they modify the airbox and gp-shift. This is a pictures of how the STM slipper clutch is assembled. Last futzed with by Somchai; May 30th, 2013 at 05:34 AM. |
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May 29th, 2013, 11:24 PM | #40 | |
ninjette.org member
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Quote:
I like to watch Moto3 & am always impressed with what they get out of their single cylinder 250's. Also always wished they allowed the twins Thanks for the links & pics ! |
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