A question about painting parts

[LittleRedNinjette]

Good luck with the painting. Can't wait to see the end result.

I could see the Line-X maybe on the side panels, durable and grippy. Not a fan of painting anything completely in Line-X though. To each their own.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Shoganai

I agree and yet disagree.

Dirt bikes are awesome for teaching those skills and at possibly slower speeds making the penalty for failure less extreme.

However, I've learned from something every crash I have had. (8 at speeds between 45 -75 and dozens at less than 30 mph) So yes, learning took place.

OK...well...I've been riding and racing dirt bikes, street bikes, and karts since the 80s, and I don't think I've been down that many times...

The majority of my crashing has been done in a controlled environment (track) or while "training" on dirt bikes.

I don't think of crashing as learning. You can certainly take something away by analyzing what happened, but the point of learning on a dirt bike is to build your skills enough that you can recover from most situations without totally losing control and crashing.

Sorry for getting so off-topic here...

[Shoganai]

Thank you and I do agree with you.
No worries.

Originally Posted by jkv45

OK...well...I've been riding and racing dirt bikes, street bikes, and karts since the 80s, and I don't think I've been down that many times...

The majority of my crashing has been done in a controlled environment (track) or while "training" on dirt bikes.

I don't think of crashing as learning. You can certainly take something away by analyzing what happened, but the point of learning on a dirt bike is to build your skills enough that you can recover from most situations without totally losing control and crashing.

Sorry for getting so off-topic here...

[Shoganai]

According to factory direct sales for Kawasaki ninja 250r 2008-2012 complete fairing kits, the entire body kit is ABS.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...109922126.html

Specifications
1: Fit for KAWASKI NINJA250R 2008-2012.
2: Quality ABS Motorcycle Fairings.
3: Injection mould.
4:Aftermarket Factory.

And this guy seems to know his stuff and doesn't mention different types of plastics being used.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Plastic...ith_ABS_cement

Originally Posted by adouglas

No, they are not ABS. The painted parts of the fairings are ABS.

The black bits look and feel like low-density polyethylene (LDPE), the same stuff laundry detergent bottles are made of.

LDPE is flexible and doesn't crack easily, which is why it's perfect for fenders and panels that you have to flex to take off, like the side fillers.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by alex.s

mine feel like the ABS that comes out of my printer so i just assumed. then again the abs that comes out of my printer is a lot softer than it should be due to not being actually solid. do you work with plastics alot?

No, but I used to be a whitewater kayaker so I had learn a bit about that kind of plastic. Boats are made of it. With a whitewater boat, the seat should fit like a pair of nice, snug jeans.... no slop. So you glue in closed-cell foam and carve it to fit you.

The problem is that like paint, glue doesn't stick well to this type of plastic.

The issue is that it's made of long-chain polymers, which look like piles of spaghetti under an electron microscope. There's nothing to grab onto.

You have to do some voodoo to break the polymer chains and create a surface with some "bite."

The trick is to very lightly pass a flame over the surface. Not enough to deform the plastic, but it does alter the molecules.

I wouldn't try that with this project. I don't know if it'd work to improve paint adhesion, and you can easily screw up and melt the part. I'm also not entirely sure that those pieces are in fact LDPE... they just look and feel like it.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Shoganai

According to factory direct sales for Kawasaki ninja 250r 2008-2012 complete fairing kits, the entire body kit is ABS.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...109922126.html

Specifications
1: Fit for KAWASKI NINJA250R 2008-2012.
2: Quality ABS Motorcycle Fairings.
3: Injection mould.
4:Aftermarket Factory.

And this guy seems to know his stuff and doesn't mention different types of plastics being used.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Plastic...ith_ABS_cement

If you look at the FACTORY (not cheap Chinese aftermarket stuff) fairings, it is very easy to see that the plastic of the side filler panels and rear fender is not the same as the painted body panels. Pull off your side filler panel and bend and twist it. It's like hard rubber. The painted fairings aren't like that.

Easy to test, if you don't mind a little risk. Go get some ABS cement. That's a solvent that melts ABS for sure... I know because I used some to repair a fairing crack. I don't think it'll melt polyethylene, but don't quote me on that... I'm no chemist.

Put a tiny dab on the inside of a painted fairing panel, wait a bit and see if the surface melts. Do the same with your fender and see if there's a difference.

[Shoganai]

Ok, I'll do that and take pictures. I want to know for sure and others here might want to watch me destroy some perfectly good parts just for shits and grins.

I know I would.

Originally Posted by adouglas

If you look at the FACTORY (not cheap Chinese aftermarket stuff) fairings, it is very easy to see that the plastic of the side filler panels and rear fender is not the same as the painted body panels. Pull off your side filler panel and bend and twist it. It's like hard rubber. The painted fairings aren't like that.

Easy to test, if you don't mind a little risk. Go get some ABS cement. That's a solvent that melts ABS for sure... I know because I used some to repair a fairing crack. I don't think it'll melt polyethylene, but don't quote me on that... I'm no chemist.

Put a tiny dab on the inside of a painted fairing panel, wait a bit and see if the surface melts. Do the same with your fender and see if there's a difference.

[Shoganai]

jkv45, I tried to remember some of my crashes, but I'm old and my memory ain't what it used to be. [no dirt get offs listed]

1. Low sided into guardrail at 45mph
(my fault)
[injury: tore some skin off my left knee]

2. Sideswiped a BMW on my VTX at Canaan Valley RA rally when he pulled out in front of me.
(not my fault)
[injury: none to either rider]

3. Low sided in a turn at night at 50 mph due to hitting a dog
(my fault)
[injury: large hematoma left leg, dog broken hip that the owners paid to have fixed]

4. Hit the front right quarter panel of a car that turned left in front of me
(my fault, I could have scrubbed off more speed)
[injury: none]

5. High sided on my 600 Shadow trying to avoid rear-ending a stopped car on the interstate, 60-ish.
(my fault)
[injury: broken left clavicle, cardiac contusion, sternal-clavicular dislocation, three broken ribs lower right side, complete ACL tear right knee, right ankle sprain]

6. Low sided VTX on gravel in turn at 40-ish
(my fault)
[injury: none]

7. West Fest crash
Flat rear at 45-ish in the twisties
(my fault, for not doing a pre-trip)
[injury: my son suffered 3-4 broken ribs]
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252745


8. K1100RS - over cooked right-hander, target-fixated, 90 degree's into embankment, fractured (L) clavicle. (see Avatar) That was on Friday 250 miles from home. I went on to ride the rest of the weekend and called my Doc on Monday for a Wednesday appt.
(my fault) Suck it up princess.

9. Low-sides K1100RS and The perfect No0b Storm. (blush)
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=962834


(non-crash) Hit a deer, didn't go down
I had to cut it's throat due to breaking both it's back legs and all I had was a dull-ish Swiss Army knife. It was a bad scene with me weeping and begging forgiveness for what I was having to do to the doe and all the while it's was bleating like a goat from pain and fear. Bad day on the worse order.



1. (Drop, not crash) Forgot to put my feet down at a stop light.
Ok, it was my third time EVER riding a motorcycle. LOL

2. (Drop, not crash) K1100RS fell on me after I dismounted in a sandy area and was standing near right side of bike.
[injury: torn MCL with meniscus tear]


10. 2007 Arizona crash
(my fault, fell asleep at 75+ mph, undiagnosed sleep apnea)
[injury: Lots of fractures]
Member login needed to see these thread links.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...postcount=2157
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...postcount=2189







(postcount=2157)

It took me over a year to muster the courage to call the woman who found me. I asked her to tell me what happened as I couldn't remember, and still to this day I can't remember. We talked for over an hour on the phone then she sent me this.




It took me a couple of days to find it, but this is what I wrote in my diary the night after it happened.


This morning on the way to the dairy we witnessed motorcycle v. semi accident. I guess that isn't a fair evaluation, the semi didn't have anything to do with the motorcycle going down, and it didn’t hit the biker, nor she it. I was driving immediately behind the semi and it swerved, over compensated and rolled one of the two trailers he was pulling. Then the bike was in front of us, half in the lane and I had to swerve to miss it. We stopped immediately to help (well, I did, I guess my poor students were just along for the ride by virtue of having no choice). One of the undergrads in my van managed to flag someone down to get a flare and cross the road while I called 911 and Kelly looked for a flashlight in the van.

Carrie and Camry found the biker but didn't touch her and were afraid of getting close. Being the “do now, evaluate later” creature that I am, I tore across the highway (probably not a great idea in the daylight, let alone when it is pitch black) with my emergency blanket and immediately started to try to evaluate her. There was no bleeding and nothing terribly crooked, which is always a good sign. She was not in good shape but had all her gear and a helmet on. She couldn’t say anything intelligible at first, just shrieking and moaning and trying to thrash. I pinned her head to the floor with one hand via her helmet and held her hand with the other and kept her talking as best I could when she was responsive and from thrashing. I got her name, birth date that she was on a cross country charity ride, her fiancé's name and where she was going.

She gave me her name after asking a couple of times. At first she couldn't remember and it was hard to restrain her without hurting her. She asked me over and over to make it stop hurting when she wasn’t able to answer any questions. She was so scared and confused. No one else really wanted to come near, but maybe it was better for her to not come to and have a bunch of people standing around her. I can't even describe the horror at knowing there was nothing more I could do for this woman in pain and confused and terrified than to hold her hand and tell her help was coming and keep her from moving. It felt so completely inadequate. The look in her eyes when she was pleading with me to let her up and make it stop hurting will never stop haunting me.

Help got there and everyone assumed I was a nurse or an EMT from the way I handled it and since I "did everything right". I did what any other human being should do, but there must have been 20 cars that drove by before the highway patrol got there and ONLY ONE of them stopped or asked out the window if there was anything they could do. I hate people.

It was a while before the highway patrol got there and I was so relieved that someone was there to take over I almost laughed. Highway patrol decided I had everything under control when I gave the woman's name and so forth and updated her on pain and such as the woman described it to me and went and started directing traffic and confirmed for air evac. I instantly felt nauseous from feeling like someone who could help she be sitting there with her. Part of me had expected the woman to be dead when we found her or that she would die with me holding her hand on the highway.

I felt horrible that no one had gone to check on the semi when it was all said and done, but apparently I sent someone to look for him before I ran across the highway. I can't remember doing it but they said I was directing people the whole time from the time we stopped until the paramedics got there, and didn’t have any qualms telling the police and highway patrol and paramedics and emergency operator where to go and what to do when they got there either. Turns out the first aid and leadership training pay off in a crunch I guess. It is also probably a good thing that none of them took offense to some critter they didn’t even know who had no obvious authority bossing them. I am still nauseous from coming down off the adrenaline.

I called Dr. Ax as soon as we were done filling out incident reports, of course being an avid rider himself he was horrified to hear someone going down on the 10. He was great about not getting any data that day and took care of everything with Frank and what not. By the time I got to my classes, the whole department knew and kept wanting all the details. Thanks to Michelle, who was there this morning, they decided t o leave it after she said she wasn’t sure we were allowed to talk about it.

The skid marks on the highway and median and damage to her helmet were unreal. I can't imagine ever going down like that and sincerely hope she doesn't remember any of it. It is haunting me, but to live through that? No thanks.

I just hope everything is ok. Kelly sent some flowers from the group of us, but the hospital won’t tell us anything or let us talk to her. She has the right to her privacy, I just hope she is ok.
Time to find something to calm myself. Like a drink perhaps. Or a bucket of them."
I hope this helps. It was hard to read again but great to know it all ended as well as can be expected!


All the best,
Angie

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by adouglas

No, but I used to be a whitewater kayaker so I had learn a bit about that kind of plastic. Boats are made of it. With a whitewater boat, the seat should fit like a pair of nice, snug jeans.... no slop. So you glue in closed-cell foam and carve it to fit you.

The problem is that like paint, glue doesn't stick well to this type of plastic.

The issue is that it's made of long-chain polymers, which look like piles of spaghetti under an electron microscope. There's nothing to grab onto.

You have to do some voodoo to break the polymer chains and create a surface with some "bite."

The trick is to very lightly pass a flame over the surface. Not enough to deform the plastic, but it does alter the molecules.

I wouldn't try that with this project. I don't know if it'd work to improve paint adhesion, and you can easily screw up and melt the part. I'm also not entirely sure that those pieces are in fact LDPE... they just look and feel like it.

voodoo? i call it acetone slurry.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by adouglas

If you look at the FACTORY (not cheap Chinese aftermarket stuff) fairings, it is very easy to see that the plastic of the side filler panels and rear fender is not the same as the painted body panels. Pull off your side filler panel and bend and twist it. It's like hard rubber. The painted fairings aren't like that.

Easy to test, if you don't mind a little risk. Go get some ABS cement. That's a solvent that melts ABS for sure... I know because I used some to repair a fairing crack. I don't think it'll melt polyethylene, but don't quote me on that... I'm no chemist.

Put a tiny dab on the inside of a painted fairing panel, wait a bit and see if the surface melts. Do the same with your fender and see if there's a difference.

http://www.terrauniversal.com/append...patibility.php

[CajunNinjaR]

Automotive plastics are molded with the type of plastic they are abbreviated on the back side. I would imagine Kawasaki would do the same and will check when I get home. Here's a good website to learn about types of plastic, they also make good coating products.

http://www.urethanesupply.com/identify.php
Posted via Mobile Device

[Shoganai]

I pulled it off already, there is no plastics code on mine.

Originally Posted by CajunNinjaR

Automotive plastics are molded with the type of plastic they are abbreviated on the back side. I would imagine Kawasaki would do the same and will check when I get home. Here's a good website to learn about types of plastic, they also make good coating products.

http://www.urethanesupply.com/identify.php
Posted via Mobile Device

[alex.s]

cut a small piece that isn't visible off and expose it to different chemicals according to the compatability chart above and you should be able to narrow it down to a couple options which you should be able to take a guess at which of those options it would be

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Shoganai

jkv45, I tried to remember some of my crashes, but I'm old and my memory ain't what it used to be. [no dirt get offs listed]

(SNIP)

You're lucky to be alive after all that!

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Riding in the rain rewards smooth riding, but it also punishes abrupt actions without much warning. I don't think it really teaches you anything except - don't cross the line.

Dirt bike riding helps you learn to control a cycle that is constantly moving around and losing traction. It's sliding, skidding, and needs constant correction. You are also working with a cycle that is much lighter and manageable, which makes it much easier to recover from mistakes and learn how to regain control.

When a 300 lb + street bike breaks traction in the wet you better know how to correct or manage it - or your going down right now. There's no learning going on.

You learn very quickly, just make sure you've good wet weather capable tyres & don't be an idiot. Just build it up rather than jumping in at the deep end.

This coming from a year round rider who learned in an Irish winter, it rains ~10 days every month & I've pushed the 250 pretty hard in the wet.
6 months in I went down when emergency braking from 50mph & I hit a patch of wet tar, other than that I've not had a weather related off in 6 years of daily riding.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by jkv45

When a 300 lb + street bike breaks traction in the wet you better know how to correct or manage it - or your going down right now. There's no learning going on.

Attitude is everything and with that attitude sir, you will never learn anything.

Simply put, it takes much more than what most riders think to put a bike in the dirt (wet or dry for that matter). Riders don't crash because it's wet, they crash because they don't know what to do in the wet. And... there is only one way to learn how, by going riding in the wet.

At the end of the day, learning what you can do is much the same as learning what you can't do. Both are put in the same column, "I learned something."

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Attitude is everything and with that attitude sir, you will never learn anything.

Simply put, it takes much more than what most riders think to put a bike in the dirt (wet or dry for that matter). Riders don't crash because it's wet, they crash because they don't know what to do in the wet. And... there is only one way to learn how, by going riding in the wet.

At the end of the day, learning what you can do is much the same as learning what you can't do. Both are put in the same column, "I learned something."

Um...thanks for that Chris...

Huh? That's silly. The wet masks all sorts of issues that would normally be visible or not a concern in the dry. Braking is reduced. Lock-up is much more difficult to modulate.

Learning to control a dirt bike that's out of shape is a much better learning tool than trying to control a street bike that's out of shape.

What exactly are you trying to "learn" on the street in the rain? How to ride fast? Spin the rear? Slide the front?

I don't get the concept I guess.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Um...thanks for that Chris...

Huh? That's silly. The wet masks all sorts of issues that would normally be visible or not a concern in the dry. Braking is reduced. Lock-up is much more difficult to modulate.

Learning to control a dirt bike that's out of shape is a much better learning tool than trying to control a street bike that's out of shape.

What exactly are you trying to "learn" on the street in the rain? How to ride fast? Spin the rear? Slide the front?

I don't get the concept I guess.

trying to ride with 100+ hp in the rain is an exercise in throttle and brake control. buffers are definitely tighter but with most modern bikes, --especially sport bikes-- the tires and suspension are so good that you would never encounter any kind of issue under normal road conditions. you could romp that throttle wide open and do a wheelie from first. that's simply not something that is going to happen in the wet. you spin your tire. the rear goes all sideways, and the bike spits you off. so when you actually have the ability to do wrong (which is mostly not the case in the dry) you have the ability to actually SEE that you've done wrong. you can actually have a response to your input that tells you you dun ****ed up. this simply is normally not the case on dry, good traction conditions. when you are not able to make a mistake that indicates you are doing something wrong, how are you to know you're even making a mistake? you don't.

dirt though. dirt is not like the wet. dirt has traction that slides around. with good nobs you can flog the **** out of that rear and have a nice stable power slide... trying to do the same thing in the wet is sketchy as **** because the traction is nowhere near as consistent as it is through dirt with nobs. dirt is fantastic for learning to deal with slides, but even dirt is not the end-all for throttle control.

[alex.s]

i guess what i'm saying is that rain over asphalt teaches you to ride... in rain over asphalt.

its hard to learn that skill anywhere else.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

(SNIP)
dirt though. dirt is not like the wet. dirt has traction that slides around. with good nobs you can flog the **** out of that rear and have a nice stable power slide... trying to do the same thing in the wet is sketchy as **** because the traction is nowhere near as consistent as it is through dirt with nobs. dirt is fantastic for learning to deal with slides, but even dirt is not the end-all for throttle control.

Try riding on snow and ice with a (non-studded) dirt bike some time. It checks all the boxes.

[alex.s]

wish i had snow or ice around here.

oh wait, NO I DONT!

[Shoganai]

This explains what I was trying to express earlier far better.

http://www.visordown.com/advanced-ri...ips/14600.html

Originally Posted by jkv45

I don't get the concept I guess.

.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Huh? That's silly. The wet masks all sorts of issues that would normally be visible or not a concern in the dry. Braking is reduced. Lock-up is much more difficult to modulate.

Learning to control a dirt bike that's out of shape is a much better learning tool than trying to control a street bike that's out of shape.

What exactly are you trying to "learn" on the street in the rain? How to ride fast? Spin the rear? Slide the front?

I don't get the concept I guess.

Hmmm... maybe you're picking up on a different message than what I am trying to say.

I will not debate that learning to slide around in the dirt at slower speeds, lack of traffic, ect, ect. is a better format. I would advocate the same if the opportunity was available. Hell, I did it, my son is currently doing it. It does address the "rider concerns" quite well. After all, there is a reason the top motogp riders hit the dirt. What is missing are the bike concerns. The simple fact is, a 230lb dirt bike handles different in the dirt and mud than a 400lb+ machine on a loose paved surface (wet, sand, gravel, whatever). Speed is a factor as well, most dirt riders don't fly down the trails at highway speeds. It's alot like comparing apples and oranges. They both taste good, they both are kinda round, yet they are different enough.

What made me reply to your comment was the part about "there is no learning". It almost reads as if there is a level of fear there also. Which is why I mentioned attitude.

I have been present at the track for many riders for their first time and then... mother nature rains down, is their day over? If a rider gets caught out in the rain coming home from work, they still got to get home right? It's not about the problems the wet creates, but instead about how the rider must deal with it. Riding defensively, cautiously, and smoothly is most definitely different than riding in fear. If a rider does nothing else, they should at least "learn" to do that. Also, the learning aspect is not always about reaction, but instead should focus on prevention. So the very first thing a rider learns about riding the wet is... they can't ride like it was dry. But... their attitude about riding the bike skillfully and safely should not change.

EDIT: Also, don't forget we train brand spankin' new riders on a wet course during the msf if it rains that day. Standing water on the course and lightning is about the only thing that stops the class.

[alex.s]

i think the painted side panels will definitely make sliding feel better. you'll be all like "yeah look at these badass painted panels while i slide" lol i love how random and off topic some of these threads get

[csmith12]

Back in my car days, we painted the flexible areas of bumpers all the time. There were a few additives that we put in the paint to allow it to flex without cracking and peeling. On the front bumpers of low stance cars were of particular concern from rocks and other debris, the additives did their job. But was of the utmost importance was a quality paint application w/ 80% of the work done to prep the surface. Next was the upkeep, a little crack or flake in the paint turns into a repaint soon enough.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hmmm... maybe you're picking up on a different message than what I am trying to say.

(SNIP)

What made me reply to your comment was the part about "there is no learning". It almost reads as if there is a level of fear there also. Which is why I mentioned attitude.

I have been present at the track for many riders for their first time and then... mother nature rains down, is their day over? If a rider gets caught out in the rain coming home from work, they still got to get home right? It's not about the problems the wet creates, but instead about how the rider must deal with it. Riding defensively, cautiously, and smoothly is most definitely different than riding in fear. If a rider does nothing else, they should at least "learn" to do that. Also, the learning aspect is not always about reaction, but instead should focus on prevention. So the very first thing a rider learns about riding the wet is... they can't ride like it was dry. But... their attitude about riding the bike skillfully and safely should not change.

Still not sure what you're getting at, but I've raced a street bike in the rain, so I don't think I'm afraid of it.

My point is - what are you trying to prove in the rain? On the track it's one thing, but on the street it just making the proper decisions and modifications to your riding that are necessary to safely reach your destination. I don't have anything to prove.

I'm just not sure how you suggest people do their "learning" in the rain. The street is a terrible place to push it, even in the dry. It more unpredictable in the wet.

I learn 10x as much riding on the dirt as I do riding on the street, mostly because I'm pushing myself on the dirt but not on the street.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Still not sure what you're getting at, but I've raced a street bike in the rain, so I don't think I'm afraid of it.

My point is - what are you trying to prove in the rain? On the track it's one thing, but on the street it just making the proper decisions and modifications to your riding that are necessary to safely reach your destination. I don't have anything to prove.

I'm just not sure how you suggest people do their "learning" in the rain. The street is a terrible place to push it, even in the dry. It more unpredictable in the wet.

I learn 10x as much riding on the dirt as I do riding on the street, mostly because I'm pushing myself on the dirt but not on the street.

first of all, nobody is talking about trying to set a lap record in the rain.

sometimes, however, it rains. this is a fact of life when riding a bike on the open street.

there are cars on the street. cars sometimes do stupid things.

stupid car + rain + no experience in the rain = maybe crash?

stupid car + rain + lots of rain experience = that car was dumb.


however, we can all agree i think, dirt isn't the same as rain. dirt is a lot more forgiving. so when you have 0 experience in the rain but lots in the dirt... and you encounter a dumb car... do you think you'll respond correctly based on rain skills that you don't have because you never practice them? or dirt skills?

[csmith12]

Jay,

You know me better than that... Nowhere in my 16k+ posts on this forum will you find where I advocate going out and push one's luck on the street, wet or dry, but I do encourage doing at least one wet track day. During that day, with a much safer environment, coaches and medical staff right there is where you learn to push your luck how to come to terms with wet pavement. Going back to the attitude thing, there is something to be learned nearly every time you throw a leg over, dry, wet, street, track, dirt, ice, snow, gravel, hills, the list goes on and on. And... you say you learn 10x more in the dirt, that's cool. It aint always about quantity, it's about purpose with quality.

I think we are saying the same thing, just using different words and outlooks. It's cool, that is what makes the world go round. Maybe I got the wrong impression from your post???