December 23rd, 2019, 03:04 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Stella
Location: Berkeley
Join Date: Dec 2019 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250R, 2000 KX100 Posts: 6
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Suspension upgrades for Ninja 250R
I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on suspension upgrades to do for a 2010 Ninja 250R. Currently I'm just doing track days in B group, but since most of my bike is stock, it gets pretty bouncy and jiggly. I'm also a somewhat-new rider (riding for ~9 months), so all this technical mumbo jumbo is also new to me
What I read online and probably plan to do is: - change fork oil (14w oil with 140mm air gap?) - change fork springs (0.75kg/mm) - use aftermarket rear shock (hopefully a used one, because new ones are $$$) Also, I'm 5'1" and about 139lbs without gear. I know I could just take it to a shop and get them to do all the hard work, but I'd like to try do forks and shock myself with friends so that I can learn My questions are: - Do my 3 changes above sound like a good plan? - Is it worth it to get race tech gold valve emulators? At some point the extra cost of upgrading so many things on this bike won't be worth just selling it and getting a new bike... - What aftermarket rear shock brands do people suggest? Currently was looking for Penske 8983 but I'm open to anything not emulsion-type and preferably with shim-stack valve - Would using an aftermarket rear shock be better or worse than using an EX500 or GSXR shock? - I found two eBay listings for a Penske 8983 shock, but one is advertised for a 2000 SV650 and the other for 2004 CBR1000rr. As long as it's Penske 8983, would it be okay regardless of what the previous owner put it on? Thanks in advance |
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December 23rd, 2019, 01:54 PM | #2 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Genesis
Location: Paradise Valley Village, AZ
Join Date: Jan 2014 Motorcycle(s): SC28 Fireblade Posts: 463
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Welcome, there are many upgrades out there but maybe start out with thicker fork oil and if that doesn't work add race tech springs.
I'm currently using a Ninja 300 rear shock. For the front, a thicker fork oil with a preload adjuster, and using aftermarket springs it's not bad. I'm about 150-155 lbs without gear and hated the spongy OEM setup. If you're looking for something nice Ohlins, Race Tech, and Nitron suspension is my top pick. Just about anything is good as long as the spring rate and valving matches your weight and riding style. This stuff can get expensive I've done custom setups on my old track miata but on a 250 I was happy with a fork rebuild.
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December 23rd, 2019, 04:21 PM | #3 | |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Stella
Location: Berkeley
Join Date: Dec 2019 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250R, 2000 KX100 Posts: 6
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December 23rd, 2019, 05:17 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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What I am doing to my 2011 250r suspension wise is Race tech springs .9, heavier weight fork oil, and pre load adjusters. I was thinking of getting a GSXR 600/750 rear shock, like I did with my 400. I didn’t even think of or know the 400 shock will fit. If that fits the 250 without modification, I will use that.
I did the exact same mods on the 400 that I am doing to the 250. I am around 175 lbs and usually ride the intermediate group and I just started racing on the 400! Using the 250 as a learning tool. |
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December 23rd, 2019, 05:50 PM | #5 | |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Stella
Location: Berkeley
Join Date: Dec 2019 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250R, 2000 KX100 Posts: 6
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Quote:
Also, I totally forgot to add preload adjusters to my list, thanks. I don't know much about preload adjusters - looks like there are some random ones on Amazon for ~$100. Will anything do? Or is this something to invest more in? |
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December 23rd, 2019, 06:46 PM | #6 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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December 23rd, 2019, 07:00 PM | #7 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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Ninja 400 shock
Does the 400 rear shock fit the 250 and is it better than the 250 shock. Will it fit without modification? I have one sitting in my basement from my 400 with just 2500 miles.
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December 23rd, 2019, 08:28 PM | #8 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Pat
Location: SW VA
Join Date: Feb 2015 Motorcycle(s): 286, 296, 599, 799 Posts: 436
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Shop around you can get a new Ohlins for the cost of some used shocks.
For spring rate, you’ll need to use the Racetech calculator. You’ll likely use a thicker oil to get the feel you want. |
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December 23rd, 2019, 09:38 PM | #9 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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Quote:
a used Ohlins shock anywhere close to that price. Believe me I am always looking! |
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December 23rd, 2019, 10:27 PM | #10 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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GSX-R shock is best bang-for-buck value. Can get 4-way adjustability for less than $50. Look for posts on here where I show how to mount one without needing to hack up frame and shock.
I made comparison of various factory and aftermarket shocks here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=337292 . After trying both Ohlins and K-Tech Razr-R, I prefer the K-tech. Direct drop-in installation, easier adjustment and better performance. |
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December 24th, 2019, 07:47 AM | #11 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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December 24th, 2019, 08:30 AM | #12 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Quote:
Although rider weight makes bigger difference. Select GSX-R shock with spring-rate you need for your weight. Having adjustable damping allows for fine-tuning that’s not possible with any factory shock. Factory dog-bones can be re-used. Some spacers are needed to widen their spacing to clear larger springs on GSX-R shock. Here’s preload adjuster for SpicyCactus. They allow you to set ride-height/sag of suspension so it operates in optimum middle range. Won’t bottom out on bumps or extend fully on rebound. As new rider, I recommend not focusing or spending too much on hardware upgrades. Spend it on track-time and classes as that’s where you’ll make biggest improvements. |
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December 24th, 2019, 07:09 PM | #13 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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December 25th, 2019, 12:55 PM | #14 | |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Stella
Location: Berkeley
Join Date: Dec 2019 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250R, 2000 KX100 Posts: 6
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Quote:
Wow thank you for all the info! I was also kind of worried that maybe the Ninja 400 shock wouldn't exactly fit the ninja 250, but I'll do a bit more research and (hopefully) upgrade the shock to a 300 or 400 ^_^ Do you happen to know any differences between a newer 400 shock vs. the 300 shock? Or are they too similar to know the difference? Also, ah yes, aliexpress, my favourite... |
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December 30th, 2019, 12:08 PM | #15 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: C
Location: Hawaii
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250 Posts: 472
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Quote:
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"It ended up being the loose nut behind the wheel" |
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December 30th, 2019, 08:05 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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There are actually two versions of 400, one where rear-shock attaches to frame similar to 250R/300. And more advanced version where shock attaches to engine. I think U.S. bikes are ones that attaches shock to engine. Ninja 400 shock will fit just fine if you get triangular knuckle as well.
However, it's not any stiffer than new-gen 250R or 300 shock because 400 is lighter than both of them. Rented one last year for Thunderhill and it's definitely better handling than previous 300 I tried 2-yrs ago. I suspect most of this is in 23-lbs less weight than 300 (and the 20 I lost). Good solution in between recycled 250/300/400 vs. full-race shocks such as Ohlins or Penske is Progressive Suspension 435. https://www.progressivesuspension.co...shock-kawasaki Or as previously mentioned, GSX-R or SV650 shocks of eBay. Will need to get some sleeves to fit larger holes in 250 frame and knuckle. No mangling of frame or shock needed. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214238 |
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December 30th, 2019, 09:59 PM | #17 | |
ninjette.org newbie
Name: Stella
Location: Berkeley
Join Date: Dec 2019 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250R, 2000 KX100 Posts: 6
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Quote:
https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Why_Pr...are_a_bad_idea I've heard of many people doing the gsxr swap, but I'm very new to working with tools and I have a pretty limited toolkit and skills (e.g. no power tools, which seem pretty expensive), although I have a couple friends who could help. I have also heard of zx600 being an easier install than zx6r shock, but those shocks would probably be pretty old at this point, although I'm not sure how much of an issue that would be. |
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December 31st, 2019, 08:30 AM | #18 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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That was a good write up for the GSXR swap. I think that GSXR shock is the older generation, 06-09. Has anyone done the swap with the newer generation 11-19? I wonder if the newer generation would require the same fabrication as the older one.
On the 400, the new generation GSXR shock, 11-19, was a direct swap. No drilling or cutting! Only thing needed was 2 washers for the lower mount so there is no slop. |
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December 31st, 2019, 11:42 AM | #19 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: C
Location: Hawaii
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250 Posts: 472
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So much to learn...
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"It ended up being the loose nut behind the wheel" |
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December 31st, 2019, 11:43 PM | #20 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Quote:
two-stage: https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...twin-1978-2017 linearly progressive: https://www.chapmoto.com/race-tech-f...rings-377-2236 (true rising-rate) Dramatic rate-increases as forewarned in Wiki/FAQ simply do not exist in real-world. It's like someone saying, "stay away from large beanstalks, because giants will eat you!!!" Sounds very logical and plausible, but those conditions simply do not exist! Even with 2-stage springs, spring-rate doesn't increase by more than +25-50% when closely-spaced stack is fully coil-bound (not +377% like FAQ claims). With linear rising-rate RaceTech springs, it's very gradual increase rather than suddenly and effects are extremely mild. More important is calculating stiffer than stock spring-rate for track use : https://www.racetech.com/ProductSear...springRateCalc Originally, I went with 0.9kg/mm front-springs on my '09 track bike and it's an improvement over stock. This year, I'm softening it to 0.8kg/mm because I've lost some weight and have gotten smoother with my braking & cornering. You'll want to have suspension that actually moves to follow surface imperfections to maximize grip. One good test is to put zip-tie lightly on fork-blade just above seal. Then see how far up it's pushed during track-riding to determine if spring-rate and pre-load are set properly. RaceTech's calculator showed factory 250 rear shock already had ideal spring-rate for me, but I wanted adjustable damping for fine-tuning. Dave Moss recommended Razor-R for my 2nd-season and I'm not sure I noticed that much difference once it was fully set-up. I chopped off 15s/lap at Thunderhill my 2nd season and that's with exact same Razor-R shock on 1st day and last. That 15s didn't come from shock, but lots and lots of practice (48-days @ track that year). BTW - A LOT of info in 250 Wiki/FAQ is way outdated or just outright wrong (someone's opinion). Take it with lots of salt! Look at numbers and verify all calculations. |
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January 1st, 2020, 11:29 AM | #21 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Kevin
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Oct 2013 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R, Tiger 800 XRT Posts: 828
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I put the Progressive 435 shock on my bike and am happy with it. I'm sure it's not as awesome as an Ohlins or something would be, but it's an improvement over stock, simple drop in fit, and good price. My only complaint is that it's not red!
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January 2nd, 2020, 08:50 AM | #22 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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350 for the Progressive 435 shock ain’t bad. No alterations for a easy install, hmmmnnnnn.
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January 4th, 2020, 01:38 PM | #23 |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot.
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MOTM - Aug '15
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As someone who's monkeyed around with several other-model shock swaps on an older little Ninja, and now owns a 400, I can provide some input.
The 400 uses an eye for the bottom shock mount, rather than a clevis. It will not directly bolt onto a 250/300/500. https://www.kawasaki.com/Parts/Parts.../2018/EX400HJF You may (or may not, I don't know) be able to also swap the suspension knuckle from the 400 to make it mount up. Keep in mind that if its dimensions are any different from the original knuckle, you're altering how the suspension operates. That could be better, worse, or the same in the end, but you're changing another aspect of the suspension actuation, and you need to consider that. Other than the mounting differences, the 400 shock looks pretty similar to the NewGen/300 shock. It appears to be a standard minimally-adjustable, non-rebuildable budget shock. According to RT's data, it's a 575lb/in spring. The EX500 is 300lb, the PreGen is 440lb and the NewGen is 520lb. It's my understanding that the 300 shock is the same as the NewGen, but possibly with slightly different valving. Unless a 575lb spring happens to be perfect for you, I see no reason to use the 400's shock, especially considering the other work you'd need to do to make it fit. The second gen SV650 shock is a similar budget shock with only preload adjustment, and a spring about the same as the PreGen's. It requires similar mods as the GSXR shock to fit, but the cheaper clevis is easier to deal with. If I were looking for that spring rate (RT says that's pretty close for your weight), I'd personally get an EX500 shock (threaded preload adjuster but super-soft spring) and swap on a PreGen spring (no preload adjustment at all but a good spring for your weight), since it's a drop-in replacement requiring no mods. https://www.invisibill.net/ninja/EX2...50F-length.jpg A GSXR shock is more adjustable, rebuildable, and available with a variety of spring rates (and apparently mounting styles with the newer models). If you're looking for a real "shock upgrade" from a budget swap, this is really the only way to go. If you're looking for a dirt-cheap, acceptable "respring" to match your weight better, one of the other OEM shocks may suffice. Technically a swapped shock from another bike won't have as good a match between its valving and your bike/spring, compared to going out and buying an aftermarket shock/spring specifically for your bike/weight, but it's WAAAAAAY cheaper and can still be a huge improvement over stock. As for fork springs, I would suggest getting the proper spring rate eventually, but the NewGen isn't too horrible stock. You're looking at about 15% stiffer springs. For comparison, the EX500's fork springs are very soft, and I'm a bigger guy, so RT's calc says I would need 69% stiffer springs under the same conditions. It's less than ideal for you, but it's not the gross mismatch I had in stock form. If you're considering RT Emulators, I suggest checking out Ricor Intiminators too. They're a similar drop-in fix for the basic damper rods, but they use shims similar to cartridges rather than the same fixed-orifice damping as the stock rods. Whereas Emulators have a spring-operated blow-off valve for releasing "overflow" pressure beyond the standard fixed orifices, the Intiminators have an inertia valve that opens from the wheel bumping up. This should mean that you can apply as much downward cornering pressure to the suspension and it will act based on just the shim damping. When you hit a bump, the overflow valve kicks in and allows the wheel to "ignore" the shim damping and quickly react. I have no personal track experience, but this seems like something that's actually more suited to the street (I assume tracks generally have fewer bumps and potholes than the street, though I realize they're not perfect surfaces either.) The Intiminators are tweakable with different shims. This could provide a poor man's version of a cartridge upgrade. They work quite well as a drop-in, and they're newer than Emulators, so there aren't many people who have a lot of experience with tinkering on them. I think they have more potential than Emulators, but you may end up having to figure things out on your own with trial and error. With Emulators, you probably have a better chance of finding someone who can set them up perfectly, even if they aren't theoretically quite as good as Intiminators. 90% of 100 and 100% of 90 both work out to the same value in the end (and 50% of 100 works out to way less, if you do a bad job setting up the best product). As another bonus, Ricor says the Intiminators actually work better with slightly less spring, compared to Emulators. If you go that route, the stock fork springs may be even less of an issue right now. FYI, actual 250 racers here have posted that their real-world suspension numbers don't match what RT's calculator suggests. I don't personally have any better suggestions, but just be aware that their numbers aren't necessarily the be-all, end-all of the discussion.
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January 4th, 2020, 02:22 PM | #24 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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I think RT has fixed their rear-spring calculator. Couple years ago, it was computing rates for dual-shock rear-ends. Even so, current single-spring rear calculations appears to be on soft side.
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January 16th, 2020, 07:59 AM | #25 |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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I think I am gonna go with a 2009 Kawi 500 shock. It has low miles and looks super clean. Simple drop in, no modification needed. The GSXR shock requires too much work. Oh and it less than 50 bucks!
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January 16th, 2020, 09:14 AM | #26 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Ninja 500 is softest of all shocks! It has 300-lb/in spring.
Even softer than ‘88-07 pregen’s 440-lb/in spring. Softer than ‘08-12 pregen’s 475/lb/in spring. I think RaceTech’s claim of 520 is wrong. Softer than 300’s 475-lb/in, same as new-gen. Check out www.ex-500.com and see that most common rear-shock upgrade on 500 is going to new-gen 250 or 300 shock. New-gen 250 shock is actually quite stiff, what you may be looking for is adjustable damping. |
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January 16th, 2020, 11:00 AM | #27 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: John
Location: New Windsor
Join Date: Nov 2019 Motorcycle(s): GSXR 750, GSXR 600, Ninja 400, Ninja 300 Posts: 146
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Quote:
I think the stock suspension on the 400 is softer than the 2011 250. The stock front end on the 250 is definitely stiffer than the 400. The GSXR shock is a huge improvement over the stock shock in the 400. I could feel the difference with just a short ride. Can’t wait to rip around the track with this set up! |
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