A moral dilemma

[Ninjinsky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02bx2hh

I watched this and thought, as motorcyclists we are the single person. If, say, a truck driver has to make a call between hitting a bus or you, you know who is going to get it.
Puts a whole new spin on "there is safety in numbers"

I don't have a solution to this conundrum.

[LittleRedNinjette]

That does make you think.

[ally99]

Very interesting. If only the workers were more aware of their surroundings, they could all be saved. Yet another reason we, as riders, are in charge of our destiny...watch around you at all times. Know who is there, who is coming. Be observant.

[Baron]

I like to say that where morality becomes a burden logic steps in but it never is that simple.
Given all the variables, a binary decision is the most acceptable outcome, but the problem is that, that decision is never made.
At the end of the day, like Ally said it's best to be aware of your surroundings or find an irradiated spider and get spider sense.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02bx2hh

I watched this and thought, as motorcyclists we are the single person. If, say, a truck driver has to make a call between hitting a bus or you, you know who is going to get it.
Puts a whole new spin on "there is safety in numbers"

I don't have a solution to this conundrum.

It all depends on the thought process of the truck driver. The occupants of a bus are generally better protected from injury than a rider due to the type vehicle they are travelling in. With that in mind, the truck driver may opt to hit the bus, possibly injuring some, but avoiding almost certainly killing the motorcyclist.

Now, if he had to choose between a motorcyclist and a bicyclist.......

[csmith12]

I watched the video and this hits close to home for me. At the end they ask "Are they on to something?" I say no... Why? Because that is how I think as well, I would pull the switch without hesitation but would not push the man over. And I believe it is not human nature to purposely kill for any reason, but instead a trained or self defence mechanic. I also think of another outcome that fits me even closer, what if the large man sacrifices himself to save all 6 workers?

The reason this hits close to home with me is because, I have had this chat with each of my kids that have started driving. They must get the right answer before I ever let them behind the wheel for the first time. And... "the right answer" doesn't mean I always have to agree with it, it just has be have a ethical reason that falls in line with the values I have tried to teach my kids.

Some examples;
1. There is a ball in the road with a child chasing it and your speed is to great to stop in time. Do you drive your car over the hill to avoid hitting him? Would you drive it over a cliff? What if you had a car load of passengers?

2. There is an animal in the road that is laying down. You have time to reduce speed quickly but you have a tailgater right on your tale. Do you emergency brake to avoid the animal? Would your answer change if the animal was standing? Would your answer change if there was no tailgater?

3. There is a large pile of leaves in the road. Do you run through them? What if it wasn't a pile of leaves, how about a simple paper bag? Do you swerve?

4. Is the life of your passengers greater than that of people that are in front of your car? Who assumes the most risk, people in cars or people standing in the road?

There are no right or wrong answers to these questions but instead only ethical values that one believes in.

[snot]

Answers:
1. Brake hard, squealing tires might make the child stop. Then swerve, if its a cliff I hope i stop.
2. No on coming traffic go around, on coming traffic... first off I slow down for tailgaters (more stopping room). Hitting the animal could cause more damage for all involved, so try to stop for large animals but little animals won't survive.
3. Leaves, bags or other tire safe stuff will be hit.
4. If you stand in the street playing chicken with a car you're the one with the most risk. Don't tailgate and pay attention, no problem everyone is safe.

[Hero Danny]

A bus can withstand a hit from a truck in most circumstances (hence why school buses don't have seat belts...) A motorcyclist will almost certainly die though.

Before people start quoting me, I said "MOST CIRCUMSTANCES" Obviously if the truck was going 60 mph then it will destroy anything in it's path.

[alex.s]

the difference between pushing a man onto tracks to stop a train, and redirecting a train to have the lesser of two impacts... i mean... this is not even close to the same thing even though the outcome is similar (1 death)

one means intentionally affecting a human to put him to his death, with the consequence of that death being saving several lives.

the other means intentionally affecting the route of a train. the result of that is that the train kills one person instead of 5.

the difference is in what/who you are affecting. in one case you are directly impacting the life of a human. in another case, you are simply putting a human into a situation where that human must protect themselves from an imposed danger.

when a fat man is pushed off the bridge, he has no means to defend himself from the train. he was effectively murdered. but when the single man working on the tracks is hit by the redirected train, it is his own fault that he does not see a train coming and gets hit by it. regardless of if a redirection saved others or not.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

A bus can withstand a hit from a truck in most circumstances (hence why school buses don't have seat belts...)

huh? That makes no sense. Projectile children get injured/injure each other more severely than firmly secured children.

Could you explain that statement a little? I have not seen any testing results anywhere ever that suggest that seatbelt non-use saves lives in an accident scenario, even with drunks.

[Bill N]

Only want to address the video. No way push to the guy over the bridge. How do you know that will stop he train. Likely he'll be squished and the others too. He's an innocent bystander and you have no right to use him to prevent what you perceive what might happen. Turn the train seems logical and maybe the other guy will get out of the way. While interesting I don't like this profile and find it wanting. Morals don't come into play in such split second situations. You just react based on your training experience etc. Bill

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by snot

Answers:
1. Brake hard, squealing tires might make the child stop. Then swerve, if its a cliff I hope i stop.
2. No on coming traffic go around, on coming traffic... first off I slow down for tailgaters (more stopping room). Hitting the animal could cause more damage for all involved, so try to stop for large animals but little animals won't survive.
3. Leaves, bags or other tire safe stuff will be hit.
4. If you stand in the street playing chicken with a car you're the one with the most risk. Don't tailgate and pay attention, no problem everyone is safe.

Sod's law that the pile of leaves will have a rock/pothole hiding under it

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

........... I watched this and thought, as motorcyclists we are the single person. If, say, a truck driver has to make a call between hitting a bus or you, you know who is going to get it.
............

Originally Posted by ally99

Very interesting. If only the workers were more aware of their surroundings, they could all be saved. Yet another reason we, as riders, are in charge of our destiny...watch around you at all times. Know who is there, who is coming. Be observant.

I love Allyson's post, because that takes the control of the situation away from the truck driver.
No fatalism here.

He decided that the motorcyclist is the "minimum damage" and steered for him/her, ...... but the motorcyclist saw the truck coming (he/she was attentive), had an emergency plan (he/she had planned at least one escape route before the whole situation developed), he/she executed the proper maneuver (having an empty mind: no fear, no feelings, nobody to blame or to be right) and evaded the accident to ride another day (having the needed emergency skills).

Originally Posted by Bill N

...............Morals don't come into play in such split second situations. You just react based on your training experience etc. Bill

In my experience, most drivers in the situation of the trucker simply freeze up and cannot think rationally or react effectively, leave alone making difficult and time consuming moral decisions.

Without facing dilemmas of any type, drivers of trucks and cars alike constantly take traffic decisions that endanger motorcyclists.
Only the alertness, cold blood and skills of many of those riders can save them.
Therefore, the tremendous importance of keeping your edge via studying and practicing.

"Keep Calm and Carry On" ............... or avoid riding in traffic altogether.
This old thread shows the split second that takes to a trained-non emotional street rider "to be or not to be".

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99823

[snot]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Sod's law that the pile of leaves will have a rock/pothole hiding under it

But no one would be seriously hurt.

[JohnnyBravo]

I don like no moral dilemma

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

huh? That makes no sense. Projectile children get injured/injure each other more severely than firmly secured children.

Could you explain that statement a little? I have not seen any testing results anywhere ever that suggest that seatbelt non-use saves lives in an accident scenario, even with drunks.

I am not suggesting that no seat belts is better... but there is a reason why buses don't have seat belts....

" tests indicated that the use of a lap belt of forward-facing seats could increase the risk of head injuries
during a severe frontal collision.
In a head-on collision (the most common type of bus accident), an occupant with a lap belt would
experience more severe or fatal head and neck injuries. The lap belt would hold a person’s
pelvis firmly in place only to allow the torso to crack like a whip, with the head striking a seat back
or a hard object with greater force than if the whole body had been thrown. "

5 seconds of google searching brought this up: http://publictransport.about.com/od/...-Seatbelts.htm

Need another source? Sure, another 5 seconds of google searching and I arrive at this other source:http://wreg.com/2014/09/16/why-schoo...ve-seat-belts/

Still not convinced? I'm sure a very logical person such as yourself may need an additional source! HERE YA GO BUD!!!! (another 5 seconds later..) http://www.sd51.bc.ca/operations/pdf...-belts%202.pdf


Next time something "doesn't make sense" to you, then maybe you should try GOOGLE, it will rock your entire world.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by alex.s

the difference between pushing a man onto tracks to stop a train, and redirecting a train to have the lesser of two impacts... i mean... this is not even close to the same thing even though the outcome is similar (1 death)

one means intentionally affecting a human to put him to his death, with the consequence of that death being saving several lives.

the other means intentionally affecting the route of a train. the result of that is that the train kills one person instead of 5.

the difference is in what/who you are affecting. in one case you are directly impacting the life of a human. in another case, you are simply putting a human into a situation where that human must protect themselves from an imposed danger.

when a fat man is pushed off the bridge, he has no means to defend himself from the train. he was effectively murdered. but when the single man working on the tracks is hit by the redirected train, it is his own fault that he does not see a train coming and gets hit by it. regardless of if a redirection saved others or not.

This was what I thought.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I am not suggesting that no seat belts is better... but there is a reason why buses don't have seat belts....

" tests indicated that the use of a lap belt of forward-facing seats could increase the risk of head injuries
during a severe frontal collision.
In a head-on collision (the most common type of bus accident), an occupant with a lap belt would
experience more severe or fatal head and neck injuries. The lap belt would hold a person’s
pelvis firmly in place only to allow the torso to crack like a whip, with the head striking a seat back
or a hard object with greater force than if the whole body had been thrown. "

5 seconds of google searching brought this up: http://publictransport.about.com/od/...-Seatbelts.htm

Need another source? Sure, another 5 seconds of google searching and I arrive at this other source:http://wreg.com/2014/09/16/why-schoo...ve-seat-belts/

Still not convinced? I'm sure a very logical person such as yourself may need an additional source! HERE YA GO BUD!!!! (another 5 seconds later..) http://www.sd51.bc.ca/operations/pdf...-belts%202.pdf


Next time something "doesn't make sense" to you, then maybe you should try GOOGLE, it will rock your entire world.

You're getting way too defensive/aggravated lately, dude.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Sod's law that the pile of leaves will have a rock/pothole hiding under it

Hmmm, maybe true. I file this under common sense and KISS, there is reason the leaves piled up in the first place and that reason, whatever it is... is 99.99999% why my car, bike, whatever shouldn't be there. However, if I am forced to hit them... I will as it (or hopefully) is only contains an inanimate objects.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

You're getting way too defensive/aggravated lately, dude.

Haven't ridden the bike in a while...

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

Haven't ridden the bike in a while...

Well just chill out and enjoy thanksgiving tomorrow

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

Haven't ridden the bike in a while...

Now is a great time to dress real warm and hit some dirt.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Well just chill out and enjoy thanksgiving tomorrow

I think it may have to do with unbelievable stress levels from going to school full time and working full time, etc. Not an excuse though. Have a great thanksgiving everyone!

Originally Posted by csmith12

Now is a great time to dress real warm and hit some dirt.

I've been considering a dirt bike for a little while now, but no where to ride really... :/

[ninjamunky85]

I took an intro to philosophy/ethics class this semester as an elective. Easily the most annoying class I've ever taken. Who the heck comes up with some of these scenarios? Still I did learn a few things from the class.

BTW I would divert the train.

[choneofakind]

Errmmm... Thanks for the lip, Danny. I'm not sure I deserved that. I hope you realize how large of a jack wagon that made you look.

The reason I asked you instead of googling was because I was trying to see your reasoning and see where you were coming from. Usually the best way to learn in a discussion is to understand the other speaker. I recently made this mistake with another poster on another topic and I'm trying to be better about figuring out where people are coming from before assuming they're an idiot and telling them how wrong I believe them to be.

[JohnnyBravo]

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Errmmm... Thanks for the lip, Danny. I'm not sure I deserved that. I hope you realize how large of a jack wagon that made you look.

The reason I asked you instead of googling was because I was trying to see your reasoning and see where you were coming from. Usually the best way to learn in a discussion is to understand the other speaker. I recently made this mistake with another poster on another topic and I'm trying to be better about figuring out where people are coming from before assuming they're an idiot and telling them how wrong I believe them to be.

You didn't deserve it. I'm sorry,

[Ninjinsky]

What is interesting is the 'remoteness' of the lever from the death it causes.
Like bombing from 20,000 feet vs hand to hand combat.

[csmith12]

Paul, that is a fascinating way to look at the lever, I think I just learned something.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

What is interesting is the 'remoteness' of the lever from the death it causes.
Like bombing from 20,000 feet vs hand to hand combat.

My brother said he wanted to be a drone pilot. My immediate response was "Oh, so you want to be a mass-murderer?"

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

My brother said he wanted to be a drone pilot. My immediate response was "Oh, so you want to be a mass-murderer?"

Tell yourself "you have been trained". Kids have been flying remote controlled airborn toys for years and years. It only becomes a problem when there are cameras and weapons attached to those toys.

[eddiekay]

A problem for who?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

A problem for who?

Most of the time... nobody and it's all for show. For those who covet for their privacy, they do not want a goofball flying over their backyard swimming pool taking photos for twitter because they have some sorta boner fetish. I also don't wanna get shot or blown up either. So, I don't have a problem getting my 12 gauge with bird shot to take care of flying rc pests that invade my private space.

In this case: the rc heli/quad copter/drone and the lever are one and the same. One must ask themselves, is what you do with it is what counts?

[eddiekay]

Having just realized the 21st century had arrived I got onto Facebook ( to follow a moto gym club in Brooklyn). After just a few visits I realized that I had just exposed myself to the universe...no, not that kind of exposing myself ! Drones with guns and camera, cruise missles with my address, at this time arent what the Military Channel would have us believe..Osama did pretty good for 10 years, right ?
But the net...we come to it. Like a Bad Santa Claus...they know if we've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...or google's sake maybe.

[csmith12]

Seems we are saying the same things different ways. Yep, the military channel shows certain things, like I said... "for show". However, my problem doesn't lie there. It is with the general public; who mostly act like they have no brains, no self control, understand no consequence for their actions and expect 100% perfection.

Osama did great, he accomplished his goal, and as it relates to this thread.... The goal is to stop the train with as little collateral damage possible, the lever and the large man are tools. Much like a drone, it's how you use them that makes it bad. Pulling the lever, some may say is not bad but pushing a man over the bridge to his certain death can be considered an act of the same measure of doing nothing and letting 5 rail workers die.

And... fyi. My grandfather used to work for NASA. We talked alot and he showed me plenty of pics. The stuff you see on the military channel is just the toys they let the kids play with. Still to this day... the art of deception is the most powerful force on the planet. Facebook is nothing more than a distraction and/or decoy at best.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

Having just realized the 21st century had arrived I got onto Facebook..............Like a Bad Santa Claus...they know if we've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake...or google's sake maybe.

As sad as true!
Internet and Google can be beautiful things to multiply understanding, encouragement, wisdom and co-existence: Ninjette.org is an example.

Each tool (stone, sword, car, gun, drone, Internet, etc.) has been controlled by the combination of evil and good, stupidity and intelligence that humans are made of.

Some learn the best universal human principles and live by those.
Some of the operators of those magnificent tools, simply choose destruction, disrespect and harm to nature, creatures and other human beings.

Please, read my signature.

[eddiekay]

"We talked alot and he showed me plenty of pics. The stuff you see on the military channel is just the toys they let the kids play with.".....yeah....actually I was afraid someone would bring that up.
Although....it's gotta occur to me that if they ain't using it on the bad guys,or at least not fessin' up about it...who are they using it on...or intend to use it on ?
To the original dilemma..... ? Sounds like the question I wrassled with 60 years ago....What if God and Superman had a fight ?

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by csmith12

And... fyi. My grandfather used to work for NASA. We talked alot and he showed me plenty of pics. The stuff you see on the military channel is just the toys they let the kids play with. Still to this day... the art of deception is the most powerful force on the planet. Facebook is nothing more than a distraction and/or decoy at best.

He didn't mention this perchance?
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/nasa-worke...6.html#bMPDMSd

Whilst I am skeptical about the "manned mars mission" I am spooked by the Castle. An artifact that appears in 2 or 3 of the Apollo moon photos apparently suspended above the surface. It is nothing earthly but doesn't look like a natural entity
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancie...e/Castle02.jpg

[eddiekay]

Yeah....well what about this !!!!!!
Some cable TV program shows an image of the moon with a sphinx like object on it. Not like they're saving the Egyptians made it there 5000 years ago but....saying like whoever put it in egypt put it on the moon too.
A good line of BS goes a long way.

[csmith12]

I don't know anything about bizarre moon pictures, secret missions to mars or hi-tech weapons and the like but it don't take much of a stretch of thought to put some fairly simple concepts together.

Google maps started and still is largely based on satellite images, and they let any Joe Blow on the web zoom into my backyard, yours too . Can NASA do better? GPS is an awesome piece of tech from 1955, invented by the US Army and in use by any Joe Blow with a smartphone. Hell, Home Depot can give you an estimate on your next new roof based on GPS and satellite data. Can NASA do better? I (partially) know what NASA did with that tech. My grandfather helped them launch space shuttles and rockets.

Who else can do better? That is the part that scares me and is highly relatable to the OP video. It's what they do with those tools.... Both the man on the bridge and the lever are tools to stop the train. Whether you choose to pull the lever or push the man, you make a choice for better or worse but you are not the one who I fear the most... It's the ones that will instead do nothing.

See where I am going with this?

@eddiekay is right... BS goes a long way. Like I said, "the art of deception is the most powerful force on the planet" and any Joe Blow can use it. :\