Brake, blip, downshift timing

[adouglas]

@csmith12 @Misti @Sirref @nickjpass and any other instructor types who wish to chime in

Situation: At full throttle down the front straight at your favorite track. By the time you get to tip-in for Turn 1 you'll need to have dropped three or four gears and maybe 70 mph or whatever.

What I know: Braking should be smooth and progressive, with pressure mounting to the moment of turn-in, then releasing progressively at whatever rate is appropriate (i.e. more slowly if you're trail braking).

Biomechanics observation: I've noticed that when braking hard (significant force on the lever), it's a challenge to modulate brake pressure while also blipping, because the muscles in the hand are relatively tight. That quick-flick-of-the-wrist blip motion doesn't come easy while also trying to maintain even, firm pressure on the lever. But when braking more lightly, it's a lot easier to be smooth. So what I often do is just slip the clutch a bit rather than blip when I'm hard on the brake. No harm there (and my bike does have a slipper clutch), but I'd like to learn better technique.

Question: What's the preferred timing for the whole initial light brake/blip/downshift/blip/downshift/brake harder/turn thing? Trail braking is not part of this question, because by then you're already in the lower gear for the turn.

Is the idea to get all that blipping and downshifting completed BEFORE ultimately hauling hard on the lever? Or am I just being hamfisted?

[Sirref]

The technique of letting the bike do the work with the slipper clutch is what a lot of pros do and is legitimate, purely because it works.

With that said it's good that you don't want to get into the habit of relying on your technology. Personally I've turned the blip and downshift into a simultaneous motion with the release of the clurch being key. Without a slipper clutch you can actually use the clutch with engine braking to help get the bike pointed as you're about to tip in but it's easier to just bang out your downshifts and use the brakes. As for timing. Roll off - brake - downshift as appropriate for engine speed. Spread out to keep rpms high at all times is ideal but clicking 3 downshifts at once closer to the end of the braking zone works too. On a 250/300 this makes a massive difference, on the supersports it's not as obvious since the brakes have real power

Do not lead with downshifts unless you aren't braking as this runs a lot of risk or accidentally over reving the motor

In summary, get your hard braking done first. Try to brake with the tips of your fingers with some slack in your hand so your thumb and 1-3 fingers can blip the throttle comfortably. I sort of slide my fingers over the lever while keeping pressure on it.

[Sirref]

Also, your scenario is exactly why slipper clutches were invented. To makes that task easier under hard braking so your mind can be free for more important things

[adouglas]

Not really asking about blip technique... more about when blip downshifts happen relative to heavy braking.

The issue I've encountered is difficulty in smoothly modulating brake pressure while simultaneously blipping -- when your wrist moves, by definition so do your fingers (see below about letting the fingers slide).

So if I'm reading you correctly when you say

In summary, get your hard braking done first.

You mean I should brake progressively up to max pressure, THEN downshift? That doesn't seem right, because it implies leaving enough room between max braking and tip-in to grab multiple downshifts. I did try this, by the way, but it impacted smoothness of my tip-in and turn because I was trying to do too much at once.

Try to brake with the tips of your fingers with some slack in your hand so your thumb and 1-3 fingers can blip the throttle comfortably. I sort of slide my fingers over the lever while keeping pressure on it.

This gets to the heart of my question. When braking lightly to moderately, this accurately describes what I do. But when pulling really hard, the muscles are tighter and the "slack in my hand" isn't really there. "Sliding" my fingers over the lever doesn't happen as much as adding force to the lever in a way I don't really want to do.

In other words, when (and only when) I'm braking hard, I'm pulling the lever hard enough that instead of the fingers sliding, I'm deflecting the lever.

I've tried a few different things, including:

• braking moderately over a longer distance to keep things smooth, instead of braking really hard towards the end of the braking zone (less lever pressure = easier modulation)
• slipping the clutch instead of blipping when braking really hard (simplifying the equation = one less thing to think about)
• getting the hard braking done first, then clicking down 3 or 4 gears all in one go just before tip-in

Of these, the first feels smoothest but I don't think it's fastest. The second works too.

I should note that I only notice this in the front straight scenario, i.e. the point on the track where braking is hardest.

[Triple Jim]

I'm interested in this subject too, Captain Obvious. On the supermoto track, things happen really fast, and I have the same problem you're describing about three time pers lap. In the past, my gearing was such that I needed to be in 2nd coming out of the turns, but wasn't going slow enough to avoid engine damage until the start of the turn. So I'd brake hard while holding the clutch lever in, and shift to 2nd at the same time, not letting out the clutch until just before the start of the turn.

The last time I was at the track, I goofed and let out the clutch late, when I had started into the turn, and that was just enough to get the rear wheel sliding. The resulting tank slapper and crash was less than fun. My plan is to try a smaller front sprocket next time, to allow me to come out of the turn in 3rd gear at the bottom of the 2-stroke powerband instead of 2nd gear in the middle of it. That way, with the engine turning slower, I should be able to get the shifting and clutch release finished well before starting the turn.

I wonder if a sprocket change could help you too.

[Zaph42]

Originally Posted by adouglas

[*]slipping the clutch instead of blipping when braking really hard (simplifying the equation = one less thing to think about)

This is what works for me and I would venture to guess for most people. Whether a slipper clutch is present or not simply determines how fast the clutch can be let out. With no slipper present, the clutch release needs to be smooth and modulated, though not necessarily slow. It then becomes the same function as a slipper clutch.

One thing I have noticed over the years, people who blip on downshifts are generally slower than people who don't. You can sit at the end of the front straight and watch/listen for a while to see that.

On the supermoto track, things happen really fast

Big thumpers seem to lock up rear wheels easier than other bikes. Clutch modulation can still take the place of a blip, it's just much harder to do on those. (from my days on my CRF450 supermoto @ USAIR track)

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Zaph42

Big thumpers seem to lock up rear wheels easier than other bikes. Clutch modulation can still take the place of a blip, it's just much harder to do on those. (from my days on my CRF450 supermoto @ USAIR track)

Good information in your post, thanks. In my case, I'm on a modified Yamaha DT100, so the engine inertia and braking is minimal. It was still enough to break the rear tire loose when I waited too long to let out the clutch though.

[choneofakind]

The biggest thing for me finally getting it was a 2 part thing.

1) The finger(s) on the brake lever need to make a curling motion instead of a bending motion when they clamp so that they can apply consistent braking force as your wrist rotates to blip the throttle. That was huge for just being smooth, regardless of how hard I was braking.

2) isolating muscle groups. Only clamping with the brake finger(s) and keeping the throttle fingers loose really really helped. Now... I'm still not a hardcore strong late braker so take my thoughts with a grain of salt... I prefer to brake early and go slow in because I'm not a hardcore track guy. But it's much the same page of thought as isolating your legs and core from your arms mentally so that you can keep yourself locked on and light on the bars when turning. This is something you're already working on.

I know I always draw comparisons to bicycles, but I'll do it again. I ride with my brakes covered ALL THE TIME on the mountain bike and I ride way more aggressively (late braking, hard cornering, and fast over everything) on MTB trail than I ever did at a track day but at the same time, I have the same focus on keeping light on the bars to let the bike do the hard work. Additionally, when I have an, "Oh poop!" moment, I have to NOT clamp on the brakes because the bike will literally cartwheel and throw me. Learning to isolate my brake fingers from the rest of my hands has helped hardcore with keeping the bike smooth and under control when I'm braking hard at speed. It's second nature now; the brake fingers stay loosey goosey, doesn't matter if I'm flying, sliding the bike, or clearing some technical rock feature. Fewer accidental panicked brake grabs means I've been crashing less and carrying more average speed.

[Motofool]

What makes the end of a long straight different regarding deceleration?

Follow the link:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99060

[csmith12]

Mr. Fist, overall my gut tells me your blipping to early or braking too late. We ride the same bikes... when approaching the end of a long straight in 5th or 6th gear you can get nearly ALL of the REALLY hard braking done before the blip down. If you're still tight on the bars at the blip points, the most likely your charging the corner a bit. It can subtle like that... and yet another form of being rushed at corner entry.

Next would be working out that last 10% where you are still pretty hard on the brake but need to blip down. Your bumm is off the seat already right? Does that mean your good lower lock on the bike is gone? Nah... Can you still have both knees on the tank with one cheek off?

What I know: Braking should be smooth and progressive, with pressure mounting to the moment of turn-in.

^^^ This describes how you might ride on the street. But honestly, needs to be flipped upside down when you're out on the track. Below is a graph if what your braking goal might look like while approaching many corners, but is especially important on turns at the end of a long strait.



Of course, that graph show's 0% trail braking, but that should NOT be a factor in your downshift points as your only issue is with pressure on the bars at the timing of the blip.

Now... apply that graph to your quote, where do you have the most pressure on the bars?

[csmith12]

Another thing that influences your blip ability in relation to your hand placement and grip is the angle that the lever ergo is set. When setting ergos, many riders hop on their bike, get in a tuck position and start adjusting. Cool! But would it better to adjust your ergos to the tasks they perform and conformed to the rider?

Adjust your throttle roll rate (cable cams) to mid corner/exit roll on preferences
Adjust your brake lever angle to corner entry bp (setting the angle to low can hurt your ability to blip smoothly and consistently)
Adjust your clutch lever to a good tuck bp (unless you use modulate it during downshifting, then use your corner entry bp)
Adjust your shift lever to a happy balance of corner entry bp and tuck bp
Adjust your clip on angle to mid corner bp, but be mindful of the angles of your wrists
ect... ect... ect...

[csmith12]

Skip to 5:39 or watch it all, up to you.

BONUS!!! He is riding an r6 Mr. Fist.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[jrshooter]

thunderhill west a very fast right than a hard slow left.
you have to dump 3 gears in a blink of a eye. slipper clutch for me.
the other option is to set your speed for the slow left in the fast right hander.
if you do ,10 bikes blow by you.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

You mean I should brake progressively up to max pressure, THEN downshift? That doesn't seem right, because it implies leaving enough room between max braking and tip-in to grab multiple downshifts. I did try this, by the way, but it impacted smoothness of my tip-in and turn because I was trying to do too much at once.

Yes. One of the biggest mistakes people make in braking is to brake lightly at first and then jab or stab or get hard on the brakes late, close to tipping in.

Another mistake is to downshift too soon, often before braking has slowed the bike down enough.

You want to get the heavy braking done first, then ease off the brakes either just before turn in or while turning in (trail braking). Downshifting happens somewhere in between when the bike is slowed enough to match the final gear you intend to end up in. A bike without a slipper clutch will require blipping in between the gear shifts, clutch lever is released before the brakes are finally released.

By getting the heavy braking done first, you are required to have less hard pressure on the brake lever while attempting to brake/blip at the same time, so as you mentioned, it is a bit easier to accomplish smoothly.

When going down multiple gears it is a lot do to at once, just before tip in which is why you want to have as much else done as possible BEFORE you get there. Getting your body position lined up early, knowing where you want to turn, what to look at etc will all help you feel less rushed at turn in.

You can practice braking and downshifting smoothness in a parking lot. Start with going down one or two gears while maintaining continuous pressure on the brake lever. Move up to 3-4 gears when you have that mastered.

[Zaph42]

Just a comment, the initial progressive increasing application is meant only to settle the chassis before you get on the brakes hard. That only needs to take as long as it takes to keep your bike from bucking and pogoing from a too hard initial application. My downshifts always happen during the heavy braking. I would guess this initial progressive application takes between 1/2 and one second before getting on the brakes hard.

I mention this because I used to get on the brakes too hard initially myself, and I dropped a load off my lap times when I settled the chassis first before doing my heavy braking.

[csmith12]

^^^^ sure thing!

This is where customizing your bike will pay big dividends. Since Mr. Fist is commenting about the skills of rider and setup of a r6, it is possible to set it up to when you roll off the throttle before braking that most of that "settling" occurs via a bit of engine braking to preload the front. Knowing your bike and how you ride it can work very well when helping the guy or gal tweak the fuel map on your bike in combo to your exhaust.

With my setup, I have nearly eliminated the preloading of the brakes via the lever. I just roll off a bit slower. T i t for tat really though in the end. Rider preferences can overrule bike setup.

[nickjpass]

Biomechanics observation: I've noticed that when braking hard (significant force on the lever), it's a challenge to modulate brake pressure while also blipping, because the muscles in the hand are relatively tight. That quick-flick-of-the-wrist blip motion doesn't come easy while also trying to maintain even, firm pressure on the lever. But when braking more lightly, it's a lot easier to be smooth. So what I often do is just slip the clutch a bit rather than blip when I'm hard on the brake. No harm there (and my bike does have a slipper clutch), but I'd like to learn better technique.

I've noticed myself that I don't have one set in stone technique, and that it varies a little every time I enter a corner shedding off speed. I have now become pretty good at keeping a constant and progressively stronger pull on the brake lever while blipping the throttle as required. It's become a pretty hectic process for me now that I can ride a tad bit quick.

Question: What's the preferred timing for the whole initial light brake/blip/downshift/blip/downshift/brake harder/turn thing? Trail braking is not part of this question, because by then you're already in the lower gear for the turn.

Is the idea to get all that blipping and downshifting completed BEFORE ultimately hauling hard on the lever? Or am I just being hamfisted?

I do it all at the same time, and sometimes my rear wheel and front are sliding or wandering while entering a corner. The clutch slipping and application of rear brake helps me stabilize everything. Depending on your skill level and pace you should separate it first. I still do this if I feel like I need to work on something particular.

I think it's just something you have to practice over and over until you find your own method. Here's a video of me entering turn one, braking from around 130mph ish to x speed. I apply the front brake and start downshifting/blipping. You can see that my bike doesn't go up and down because I try and maintain an even pressure on the front lever.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Slow motion of same video, front end dive is pretty obvious here

Link to original page on YouTube.

One thing I'd like to point out is that make sure the initial closing of the throttle is smooth and not sudden! @alex.s taught me this. If you chop it closed, the front end will dive.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

^^^ This describes how you might ride on the street. But honestly, needs to be flipped upside down when you're out on the track. Below is a graph if what your braking goal might look like while approaching many corners, but is especially important on turns at the end of a long strait.

Nice catch! I missed that

[csmith12]

Your downshifting a tad early Nick, scrub some more speed before you start blipping down. I would bet that is part of the cause of your unstable tip in. When the rear spins slower than the bikes speed of travel, it's gunna step out. Sometimes we do it on purpose even

And tight hands is an SR, are you meaning weight on the bars instead?

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Your downshifting a tad early Nick, scrub some more speed before you start blipping down. I would bet that is part of the cause of your unstable tip in. When the rear spins slower than the bikes speed of travel, it's gunna step out. Sometimes we do it on purpose even

And tight hands is an SR, are you meaning weight on the bars instead?

I noticed that! I've got more than a couple things to work on next year

I'd like to get a camera or two more so I can point them at my hands to observe what they do. I never see that angle anywhere online, and I think we could learn a lot.

Tight isn't the right word. I'm not sure how to describe it

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Not really asking about blip technique... more about when blip downshifts happen relative to heavy braking........

Link to original page on YouTube.