Riding a 600 seems easier...am I crazy???

[Urban Ninja]

Last weekend, I got an opportunity to ride a ZX6r on the big track at Willow Springs Raceway. I'm still getting used to being on the track on my 300 and even though I feel like I'm progressing, I'm still pretty slow and have A LOT of room for improvement. Getting on the ZX6r was intimidating and I felt pretty nervous but as soon as I got on the track, I could not believe how quickly I got used to it. In fact, it felt like it was easier to ride on the track than my 300! It felt a lot smoother going into the turns and engine braking was much easier. It was also easier for me to get a decent lean angle....It just felt more stable overall.

Since many of you guys have both 300's and 600's - do you feel the same way?? I've been thinking about getting a 600 but didn't think I was ready. After this weekend, I kinda feel like I would possibly progress quicker on a 600.

Thoughts???

[Ghostt]

All bikes handle differently, one must also remember what they were designed to do in the first place, just like cars, and how it's set up.

The Ninjette is made for the beginner market primarily, not track, while some bikes are made for the track. You can get the Ninjette to that level, but must invest $$$ to do so, while a different bike might be better equipped, but they too need $$$ to perform better. The one limiting factor is the frame, and geometry of any bike In the end.

[allanoue]

subscribed
Good question for the context of track riding

[Singh2jz]

I second what ghostt said..

[adouglas]

A more powerful bike will perform for you without having to change gears nearly as much. I miss having to work the bike, actually.

You're also feeling the effect of much better suspension and tires. Remember, the Ninjette is a softly sprung bike meant for new riders, running on hard commuter rubber.

Finally, there's the ergos... the ZX6R is designed for exactly what you were doing: riding on the track. Not surprising at all that you feel at home on it.
@allanoue - Since I just got back from the track the whole context thing is fresh in my mind. I ride a supersport all the time... I commute on it every day, weather permitting. I tend to take a much more aggressive position than most supersport riders on the street, simply because I find it more comfortable.

But on the track it goes to a whole new level. Much more in contact with the bike, head much lower, inside shoulder dropped, balls of feet on the pegs all the time (not just most of the time), hanging off all the time, etc. etc.

[csmith12]

I have done some research on this and will share my findings.

1. 600 ergos vs. 250/300 ergos. While not always true, many 600's have more aggressive ergos than 250/300's. At a high level, the ergos put your bp in a better position to steer the bike. Not to mention getting a good lock on the bike via the tank. Second to throttle control, good steering = confidence!
2. General bike design - these things are precision cornering instruments in nearly every way shape and form. A bike that is well behaved goes a long way to allowing the rider to reach their goals.
3. Better tires/suspension - there is NO better hard mod to a bike than good functional and adjusted suspension. Even a crappy bike can corner like a beast with good tires and suspension bits.

Will it help you learn/progress faster? Maybe, maybe not. If you goal is corner speed then mostly no. When I run into a roadblock or challenge on my r6, I try the same section on the 250. It normally allows me to clean up riding and focus on the basics of cornering, mostly throttle control line and entry speed. Once I have those worked out, I get back on the r6 normally with far less fuss. Sure, the hard bits on the r6 allow for a bit faster entry speed and a very aggressive braking marker but it don't change the overall corner that much. Let's face it, 83mph in a corner is pretty much the same on either bike (assuming well set up machines). The difference is in the feel of the rider.

Sooo much more but I will let others add their experiences as well.

[Hero Danny]

My 600rr feels really bad in the corners... tires are in poor shape. Just ordered some good tires though so we'll see.

[cbinker]

You are also on a track, so your progression of learning is going to skyrocket versus riding on the street. One thing that happens when going "up" on bikes at the track is you are already familiar with the track layout and requires less thinking.

[InvisiBill]

Like they said, the biggest thing is probably suspension and tires. I don't have a ton of experience, but keep in mind that these 600s are essentially race bikes made street legal, whereas the little Ninjas are cheap, entry-level bikes designed to look like their big brothers. I'm not trying to knock them (or I wouldn't be on one), but they're just built with different mindsets. If the stock suspension isn't matched to your weight, it can make it feel really bad.

I'm guessing that the fork springs aren't too far off for your weight, but RT's calc says the rear is ideal for ~220lb. I don't hear a lot about that, but it seems to be too stiff for the mentioned weights of many Ninjette riders. The '01-'03 GSXR600 shock comes with a softer spring that's probably closer to matching your weight, if you prefer a cheaper DIY solution (vs. just buying an upgraded shock with a spring matched to your weight). A number of people respring the stock EX500 shock, but I haven't seen much mention of doing that on a NewGen/300 shock (I'm not sure exactly what size the spring is and how easy it would be to find a generic spring to replace it).

Based on my experience with a modded SV650 shock binding up a little, I can say that a too-stiff rear will make even a good front end feel funny. It can lead to a rocking horse effect, where the front and rear aren't working in unison. Getting everything working together makes it feel a lot more smooth and stable, even on the same tires.

[sharky nrk]

I think it really depends alot on what the setup of each bike was relative to your needs (weight, ergos, etc.) and how hard you were riding. A 600SS ridden at 50% of its capacity will feel alot easier than riding a 300 at 90% of its capacity rolling around a track.

My 600 and 250 are setup about as well as each other for me, with similar "level" suspension and brakes between the two, and it is much much easier and confidence inspiring to ride the 250 at 90% than the 600 and 90%. The corner speeds on the 250 are actually higher, but it requires far less hard braking and far less care on the throttle on the bits entering and exiting the corners. Plus I really enjoy blowing by people on the brakes and riding around the outside of them on their 600s that they thought they would progress faster on. A 250/300/small bike with no power teaches you that.

Just my quick $0.02

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

Plus I really enjoy blowing by people on the brakes and riding around the outside of them on their 600s that they thought they would progress faster on. A 250/300/small bike with no power teaches you that.

[sparky80]

Having gone the other way around, they are both different bikes. I had two tracked R6's and one street R6 and they were amazing bikes. power delivery is docile until way up there in the rpm range so power is relatively easy to handle. As far as shifting is concerned, the 600 would let ya work less causing it to be easier. Jump on a liter bike and see if you'll ever shift past second on some smaller tracks.

That being said, the 300 is a great bike for newer riders and easy at normal street speeds. in stock trim, its pushed to its limits well before a 600SS at the track.

I'd say keep the ninja for a good season, get comfy with riding and learning good skills, and then get yourself a YAMAHA for next year.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Urban Ninja

........
It felt a lot smoother going into the turns and engine braking was much easier. It was also easier for me to get a decent lean angle....It just felt more stable overall.....
Thoughts???

The higher weight of the 600 means higher inertia to pavement irregularities and to changes of speed: it feels smoother.

The lower combined (bike + rider) center of gravity, especially for light riders, and the wider tires force the 600 to lean more for the same turn and speed, making you feel "achieving" more lean angle (not an advantage respect to the 300).

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by sparky80

Having gone the other way around, they are both different bikes. I had two tracked R6's and one street R6 and they were amazing bikes. power delivery is docile until way up there in the rpm range so power is relatively easy to handle. As far as shifting is concerned, the 600 would let ya work less causing it to be easier. Jump on a liter bike and see if you'll ever shift past second on some smaller tracks.

That being said, the 300 is a great bike for newer riders and easy at normal street speeds. in stock trim, its pushed to its limits well before a 600SS at the track.

I'd say keep the ninja for a good season, get comfy with riding and learning good skills, and then get yourself a YAMAHA for next year.

Sorry, I meant to vote your post as helpful.

Hope @Alex can fix my accidental down-vote.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Sorry, I meant to vote your post as helpful.

Hope @Alex can fix my accidental down-vote.

I do not think Alex can change votes so I gave him an up vote for you.

[sparky80]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Sorry, I meant to vote your post as helpful.

Hope @Alex can fix my accidental down-vote.

No worries... I won't lose sleep over it. Maybe it was my loyalty to Yamaha that offended ya...

[Urban Ninja]

Thanks for your input guys! I actually learned how to ride (and I'm using the term "learned" very loosely) on a 600 and even had a 1000 for a bit. I could ride in a straight line but that's about it haha. The big bikes scared the s*** out of me and I actually had a pretty bad wreck on the 1000 when my friends took me canyon riding for the first time. I gave up riding for a while after that but that was a long time ago and I'm older and wiser now. I still make mistakes on my 300 sometimes and one of the huge advantages of a small engine bike is that it forgives most of your mistakes.

I know there are ways to make the 300 perform better but my feeling on that is that instead of dumping a bunch of money into this bike, I could just use the money to get a bigger bike that already performs better. I do want to get back on a 600 soon and this past track experience gave me confidence that I'll be able to do so soon. Maybe once I start blowing by people on their 600's in the corners

[Toly]

No idea about the track, but on the street I could ride Ninjette close to its full potential... I traded up to 600rr and, after 3K miles on it, could still barely ride it.

If I were getting a new street bike, I'd get neither Ninjette nor a supersport, but something in-between.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Toly

No idea about the track, but on the street I could ride Ninjette close to its full potential... I traded up to 600rr and, after 3K miles on it, could still barely ride it.

Having seen some of the videos that Rojo Racing has posted on this forum of him riding on the street on his 250... I don't think I'll ever be able to ride the Ninjette close to its full potential!

[akima]

Originally Posted by Urban Ninja

Getting on the ZX6r was intimidating and I felt pretty nervous but as soon as I got on the track, I could not believe how quickly I got used to it. In fact, it felt like it was easier to ride on the track than my 300!

I really don't know much about the stuff that people do to make their bikes work well on the track, but from reading stuff on this forum about it, people go to A LOT of effort to improve their bikes for track use. Like swapping out stuff, tweaking stuff, putting expensive slick tyres on their bike.

So what I'm thinking is... do you have a close to stock 300 and was this ZX6r someone elses highly modified and loved trackbike?

I expect that if I took my Ninja 250R on a track and then hopped off and hopped onto @csmith12's Ninja 250R track bike, that his bike would feel amazing compared to mine.

I've never touch the suspension on my bike, I've got reasonably hard street tyres on it now, I've got stock levers, no clip-ons and a scottoiler that likes to oil my rear tyre.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

My 600rr feels really bad in the corners... tires are in poor shape. Just ordered some good tires though so we'll see.

Since you bought it use the suspension settings may not be anywhere remotely close to what they should be.

One of the downsides to a fully adjustable suspension is that it's fully adjustable. Meaning that any idiot with a screwdriver can, and will, do all kinds of wrong things to it.

After all, nothing is foolproof if a big enough fool is involved.

Head over to the sportrider.com site, find your bike in the suspension settings database, and make sure it's near stock for a baseline read.

[Urban Ninja]

Originally Posted by akima

So what I'm thinking is... do you have a close to stock 300 and was this ZX6r someone elses highly modified and loved trackbike?

Both bikes are completely stock but I guess as a lot of people mentioned, the 600's are factory built for that kind of use where the 300's are built for love and affection

As I said, I know I can make my 300 perform better with upgrades and tune-ups and if money wasn't an issue, I'd love to do that AND have a bigger bike as well. But since I don't live in a perfect world where I can afford more than one bike, I think I would rather just get a bigger bike when I'm ready.

[sparky80]

Originally Posted by Urban Ninja

I think I would rather just get a bigger bike when I'm ready.

Think you gave yourself the best advise Kate. I've yet to take my 300 to the track but I'm sure it'll be loads of fun as many can attest to that.

Once you start going faster, you'll get the bug to go faster and faster and faster and then it doesn't become any fun. In my mid 20's I was pretty fast and was in the top 10% of the A, #1 or fast group. I was soo concerned about lap times and wanting to go faster and faster that I almost didn't have fun anymore.

Sold the trackbikes and took my street FZ1 to the track. Liter bikes are a handful at the track but now in my 30's, I put myself in the B/#2 group and really enjoy it. I don't go as fast but focus on perfecting a turn or section each session and enjoy the thrill of riding.

I think the 300 would be the same, minus the power... Enjoy riding, learn the thrill of the track, have fun on the street and slowly add/modify as needed. My 300 is stock minus a slip-on, and I'd leave the suspension alone for my first trackday, even at 190 geared up. I'd just switch to steel braided front line and some HH pads and call it a day.

BUT... 600's are a BLAST on the track, or if ya really wanna have stoopid fun at a fraction of the cost of a big track, take a supermotard to a go-cart track. I had a Husky SMR510 and it was more fun backing into turns at 35-40 mph than shooting down the carousel at Sears Point...

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Since you bought it use the suspension settings may not be anywhere remotely close to what they should be.

One of the downsides to a fully adjustable suspension is that it's fully adjustable. Meaning that any idiot with a screwdriver can, and will, do all kinds of wrong things to it.

After all, nothing is foolproof if a big enough fool is involved.

Head over to the sportrider.com site, find your bike in the suspension settings database, and make sure it's near stock for a baseline read.

Thanks! I just took my tires off today for the first time ever. It wasn't too bad. I'll definitely look into tuning in the suspension.

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by Toly

No idea about the track, but on the street I could ride Ninjette close to its full potential... I traded up to 600rr and, after 3K miles on it, could still barely ride it.

If I were getting a new street bike, I'd get neither Ninjette nor a supersport, but something in-between.

[xorbe]

Originally Posted by Toly

If I were getting a new street bike, I'd get neither Ninjette nor a supersport, but something in-between.

What's between? The FZ6R is top heavy, and the CBR650 is buzzy. There's literally nothing interesting between 300 class and 600 SS from the big four.

[liberpolly]

FZ6, if you're Ok with used?

[cadd]

Originally Posted by sparky80

...take a supermotard to a go-cart track. I had a Husky SMR510 and it was more fun backing into turns at 35-40 mph than shooting down the carousel at Sears Point...

Like this?

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Toly]

Originally Posted by xorbe

What's between? The FZ6R is top heavy, and the CBR650 is buzzy. There's literally nothing interesting between 300 class and 600 SS from the big four.

The Triple

[bowser]

Originally Posted by Urban Ninja

Last weekend, I got an opportunity to ride a ZX6r on the big track at Willow Springs Raceway. I'm still getting used to being on the track on my 300 and even though I feel like I'm progressing, I'm still pretty slow and have A LOT of room for improvement. Getting on the ZX6r was intimidating and I felt pretty nervous but as soon as I got on the track, I could not believe how quickly I got used to it. In fact, it felt like it was easier to ride on the track than my 300! It felt a lot smoother going into the turns and engine braking was much easier. It was also easier for me to get a decent lean angle....It just felt more stable overall.

Since many of you guys have both 300's and 600's - do you feel the same way?? I've been thinking about getting a 600 but didn't think I was ready. After this weekend, I kinda feel like I would possibly progress quicker on a 600.

Thoughts???

if you're slow on the 300, it's because you're slow. it's not the bike's fault. the best way to go faster (and have more FUN!) is to do more laps. dollar for dollar, you can do far more laps on the 300 than the 6.

600s are great if you're an expert racer with deep pockets/sponsorship. otherwise, not so much.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Urban Ninja

I've been thinking about getting a 600 but didn't think I was ready. After this weekend, I kinda feel like I would possibly progress quicker on a 600.

Thoughts???

If your ultimate goal is to have a bigger bike, for street or track; then just get a bigger bike. If you want to improve riding skill, stick with small bike.

From my experience, having the skills to ride a small displacement bike at fast/track pace make the better suited rider for larger displacement bike.

Little Ninja goes around the track plenty fast if you've got the skills and tires, well beyond the capabilities of a rider who is not hitting the track every other weekend and replacing tires at every oil change.

Without the skill & confidence to push the pace, test the limits on a small displacement bike and moving to larger bike can be costly when mistakes happen.

My pre-gen Ninja 250 was purchased under $1k, I don't mind getting things damaged or replaced, plenty of parts available at cheap prices.
I just ride it to the limit until it falls apart or blows up and get another engine at $200.