Helping a friend out: water in exhaust!

[EthioKnight]

Hi,
So a fellow 250r rider (blue, '09) that I met recently, had his gas cap flap get stuck on him. All attempts to fix it where to no avail and so I recommended he get the SSR racing gas cap, like the one I had, and so he did. Apparently, he didn't install it right, for when the week long (and still continuing) thunder storms hit town, his cap leaked water in to the gas tank and he found himself stranded. After helping him put it into a van (go Uhaul!, $29 for a van), we decided to meet the next day to purge the tank/carbs of water and get the beast running again. I had done this to my bike before, so all went well (drained gas tank, drained float bowels, swished Seafoam in tank and let it run through float bowels to pick up residue water, put fresh gas in)...after doing all that, it was time to crank her up. Upon doing so, bellows of white smoke and drips of water started coming out of the exhaust (MGP Growler). The bike started for about 2 seconds several times, but mostly it just cranked without firing (different combinations of full to no choke, prime to open on the petcock) and each time, what appeared to be a white, odorless smoke (assumed to be steam) and water droplets came out. My guess is that, water has gotten into and settled in the exhaust (he had left the bike out in the rain the previous night ). We ceased trying to start the bike, after the battery started giving out and plan on resuming our efforts tomorrow. What do you guys think? I plan on removing the headers and getting rid of the water within...but I'd heard of damage happening to the 'heads' if water has gone high enough as to reach the engine block. I should be able to see bubbles or discoloration in the oil if that's the case right? I don't know, just thought I'd post to see what you guys think. Any help would be appreciated. tnx
p.s. I should have recorded the issue, but here's a pic to demonstrate the angle of the exhaust and how plausible our assumption of water getting into the exhaust is.


oh! and for all you nonbelievers, blues and reds CAN get along

[cuong-nutz]

edit: What in the world was the bike doing parked in high flood waters?

If water was that high and somehow got into the head you might have some bent valves from cranking it over and water in the oil. Drain the oil if you haven't already and see.

[EthioKnight]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

He will be fine. You've drained the tank and flushed the carbs. I would change the oil for added insurance. The moisture in the exhaust from the rain will evaporate from the bike running.

but that's the issue! It's NOT running! I think there's just too much water in the pipes to allow the exhaust fumes to come out (analogy: bike can't exhale). Don't know if this was advisable, but following the advice of his neighbor (who tricks out lawn mowers) we put some 100% ethanol (after completely draining the fresh fuel) for some extra kick to expel all water...but we didn't get to try that much, because the battery gave out...thanks for the input though.

[EthioKnight]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

edit: What in the world was the bike doing parked in high flood waters?

If water was that high and somehow got into the head you might have some bent valves from cranking it over and water in the oil. Drain the oil if you haven't already and see.

oh! edit, you devil!
It was rain...more like torrential rains...I can't speak for the dude, be safe to sy he didn't have a tarp. I'll definitely check on the oil though. If water is indeed inside, then it's straight to a shop? nothing we can do?

[cuong-nutz]

Stupid ass Laptop.

It just could be that his carbs are gummed up from the water in his fuel.

I'd start with the easy stuff.
Drain the oil and check for water in it.
Compression test.
Charge the battery.

[EthioKnight]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Stupid ass Laptop.

It just could be that his carbs are gummed up from the water in his fuel.

I'd start with the easy stuff.
Drain the oil and check for water in it.
Compression test.
Charge the battery.

Gotcha! Battery's been charging at his place the whole night (should be fully charged by tomorrow), will do on the engine oil..as to the compression test, I'll look into getting the tool, but hopefully won't need it. Tnx bud.

[GateKeeper]

change the oil and filter, look for signs of water, seems you have all the water out of the gas tank and fuel system. take the can off of the bike, if it's a 2 piece, if not remove from the engine and dump out the water.

Another thought is you might have water in the electronics, the wiring and so on, one thing you can do is spray some WD40, yes one good thing this product is good for,,,,it is after all a Water Dispersant, and not a lube......spray all the connections (electrical) wait a while and for it to dry out, and try again.

check all fuses as well, pull out the plugs dry them off, dry off the plug wires as well, again you can use the WD40

good luck

[EthioKnight]

Just got a message from dude, he removed the entire exhaust and said a good amount of water came out. He's already bought new spark plugs...what's left is to look at the oil and attempt a start. tnx @GateKeeper for the tips. I doubt if we have any electrical issues, but it's a good idea to get rid of the water anyway.

[Motofool]

Some time without posting, Alex.

The spark plugs' pits have drains, which are sometimes clogged.

After removing the old sparks, crank the engine a few turns with open plug holes (spark plugs installed in boots and grounded to the engine) and full throttle, so any water in the combustion chambers is vented out (otherwise it could foul the new plugs).

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/57...Wash_Plug.html

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by EthioKnight

Hi,
.... swished Seafoam in tank and let it run through float bowels to pick up residue water, put fresh gas in)...after doing all that,....... and each time, what appeared to be a white, odorless smoke (assumed to be steam) and water droplets came out.

Originally Posted by EthioKnight

... we put some 100% ethanol (after completely draining the fresh fuel) for some extra kick to expel all water...

Draining the tank, adding fresh fuel and seafoam should have fixed the small water issue. Adding the extra 100% ethanol probably wasn't needed. In fact depending on how much you put in it may cause the ethanol content in the gas to be more than 10%, which the engine can't burn properly. (kind of like putting E20 + gas in it). Here's a good article to read about gas additives

http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_a..._e10_list.html

http://www.fuel-testers.com/understa...l_percent.html

As far as water in the exhaust goes, most "good" upturned mufflers have a small drain hole on the underside to help drain condensation or water that may get into the pipe. Unless someone took a hose and stuck it straight into the muffler I doubt you have that much water in the exhaust that the engine can not push out or burn off later

As for the white smoke, this are other things that may be the cause;
White smoke:
Piston oil ring worn
Cylinder worn
Valve oil seal damaged
Valve guide worn
Engine oil level too high

You need lots of heat to make steam, however white smoke can occur when there is not enough heat to burn the fuel

[YMCMB]

Ouch! Hopefully this gets resolved quickly and your friend can get back to riding fully! I need to get a right rearset for my ninja to get back to riding mine snapped in half and bent brake pedal

[EthioKnight]

thanks @Motofool and @DaBlue1 for the tips. We put in new spark plugs today and attempted to start her up...without a positive result (she idled for about a minute at one time though). I'm uploading a video as I write this, 46% and counting, hopefully it will shed some more light on the issue. After removing the water that was in the exhaust (not a lot), the white odorless smoke I had mentioned earlier was replaced with a blueish, fuel smelling smoke (which is a good thing right, at least there is some combustion...). If the new plugs aren't fouled, We'll do what Hernan suggested. We'll also probably end up draining the ethanol out and put more fresh gas in. Thanks a bunch for all the help and comments guys. We appreciate it...nothing more frustrating than to have our babies be non responsive! smh.
p.s. (@YMCMB, tnx. sucks to hear about your rearset...I lost mine recently as well and I opted for the X-Race predators you can see in the pics above. good luck)

[EthioKnight]

Ok, here's a video of the start up attempt (one of many) AFTER putting in new spark plugs, draining what little water was there in the exhaust, with 100% ethanol.

Link to original page on YouTube.
What I'll probably try to do next:
remove and check Spark plugs for any sign of dampness.
Turn over engine with spark plugs removed to rid engine of any water
drain engine oil and inspect for water/bubbles/milky discoloration
drain tank and float bowels yet again and refill with fresh gas
..and see what happens.

[DaBlue1]

Just in case you missed the info in the link; http://www.fuel-testers.com/understa...l_percent.html

Alcohol Content Results
Effects of percent (%) alcohol on engines.

Up to 10% alcohol = Legal limit for E10 -Safe for most engines.

11 to 15% - * Risky - Use with extreme caution. Engine performance problems will usually occur, eg. stalling. Fuel should be drained (discarded), and replaced with fresh gasoline. Although possibly unsafe, if only a small amount of fuel is left in tank tests over 10% alcohol, (eg. less than a 1/4 tank full), filling the tank with a high octane (93) fresh gasoline can be considered. After filling tank, check fuel again to check alcohol percentage has decreased to a safe level.
See important notes below.

16-25% = Very Risky - Do Not Use - Will experience varied engine performance problems, including unable to start, frequent stalling, difficulty accelerating, and more. Will reduce life of engine. It is recommended that fuel be immediately drained and discarded. Do not run your engine on this unsafe level of alcohol. Damage to your engine and parts will occur, sometimes immediately. How soon this occurs is dependent on several factors, including age of engine, type of engine, parts used, and condition of engine. See important notes below.

26-40 % Severe risk and danger - Do Not Use - Affects will be same as listed above for 16 to 25 %, but damage will appear much sooner, sometimes immediately after running one time on this dangerously high alcohol content level. Performance problems will be greater, and older or poorly tuned engines most likely will be unable to start on this very high level of alcohol. Black smoke from engine will be apparent. Fuel discoloration and a strong odor is proof that gas is contaminated. The dirtier your engine, the greater amount of gunk released will be noticed. Engines that have older, dirty parts will notice clogged fuel filters very quickly. See important notes below.

Over 40% - Engine most likely will not start. Do not use - Severe damage will occur. Damage to engine will be permanent, engine may not be repairable.

Everything else is secondary to this problem. Drain the tank first and hope nothing internally has been damaged.

[lgk]

ethanol can cause all types of problems in carburetor fuel systems...
it has different fuel density then gas, so your fuel ratio will be lean unless you increase the fuel volume by 1.5-2 fold.

the white smoke is probably the seafoam burning.
wouldn't worry too much about it at this point.

i would drain the carbs and tank, put fresh gas into tank.
prime and drain a couple of times to get the ethanol and seafoam out of the system.

when you changed the spark plugs, did you find any evidence of water being inside the cylinder?

[EthioKnight]

Originally Posted by lgk

ethanol can cause all types of problems in carburetor fuel systems...
it has different fuel density then gas, so your fuel ratio will be lean unless you increase the fuel volume by 1.5-2 fold.

the white smoke is probably the seafoam burning.
wouldn't worry too much about it at this point.

i would drain the carbs and tank, put fresh gas into tank.
prime and drain a couple of times to get the ethanol and seafoam out of the system.

when you changed the spark plugs, did you find any evidence of water being inside the cylinder?

When I took the spark plugs out, I didn't think to check for any sign of water on them or inside the cylinder. (I was completely ignorant of checking the plugs for water). I just popped in and torqued the new ones. When the weather abates, we'll take a crack at the bike again and first thing we'd do would be to check the plugs and as you and @DaBlue1 were so kind to advise, drain and flush the tank and carbs with fresh gas. Tnx a bunch for the outpouring of ideas, comments and help!

[DaBlue1]

Also, may I suggest for your friend, that if he keeps his bike uncovered in the rain that he gets a cheap cover and use Star Tron Fuel Treatment. It's good stuff. Walmart has it, and just about every small engine shop.Cycle Gear has even started selling it now.

[Motofool]

Great info about the alcohol, Blue !!!

In that case, I wouldn't take the sparks out and just try re-drainage and fresh pure gasoline first.

I am paranoid about the heads' aluminum threads of the plugs: the less wear the best.

[EthioKnight]

ok then, I'm about to head over to his place and I'll put draining/flushing of the tank and carbs as a priority.

[alex.s]

That engine doesn't sound good

[EthioKnight]

Well, I'm happy to report that after a day full of sweat, toil, blood and tears We were able to get her up and running. She started right up after a complete flush with fresh gas. We encountered an issue with idling...where, to my shame, I stated that turning the idle adjustment in the 'lefty-loosy' fashion would open, i.e., increase the idle...well, turns out I was wrong and upon making that correction, the bike is idling, revving and running just fine. Thanks to all who contributed, I and my friend learned a lot and we are very grateful.

[Motofool]

You are a good friend, Alex.

Happy for both of you

You are welcome

[DaBlue1]

That's good to hear. You are welcome.

[Vergil]

Glad he's able to get back on the road! You did good work

[ninjagorilla2]

...In comes the guy that attempted to make his ninja into a submarine. Hi all! Thanks for all your help! This really saved me some $$$. Though only five days without her, it has felt like an eternity. EthioKnight is truly an amazingly good person. Thanks to him, she's running better than ever. I've learned a lot from this ninja-guru and I know he has a ton more to show me.

[Motofool]

Welcome to the site, Josh !!!

[YMCMB]

Apps to hear that the bike has been revived from drowning! Whoop cheers and welcome to the site josh!

[lgk]

glad to hear you're back on the road.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ninjagorilla2

...In comes the guy that attempted to make his ninja into a submarine. Hi all! Thanks for all your help! This really saved me some $$$. Though only five days without her, it has felt like an eternity. EthioKnight is truly an amazingly good person. Thanks to him, she's running better than ever. I've learned a lot from this ninja-guru and I know he has a ton more to show me.

Welcome Josh!

Might I suggest you keep your snorkle. Glad you got everything sorted.

[choneofakind]

Now might be a good time to suggest a new back tire
Posted via Mobile Device

[EthioKnight]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Now might be a good time to suggest a new back tire
Posted via Mobile Device

yeah...mentioned that to him and he'll hopefully replace it. +1 on noticing it though bro

[choneofakind]

Oh and I forgot to mention, welcome to ninjette josh!! I think you're the first newgen to go amphibious

I would say you were the first ninjette to do it, but I'm pretty sure Skippii beat you to it with his pregen on his off-road excursions
Posted via Mobile Device

[ninjagorilla2]

Thanks all for the warm welcome! Hope it was entertaining. I do have one final piece of dumb advice that might help shed light on this entire situation. My overflow drain tube to the tank was pointed straight up into my seat. I dont know why the last person left it that way. So any seepage into the tank couldn't escape. So, no exit, plenty of rain, and my attempts to scuba all brought ninja down.

Oh, and pay day is friday. I'll buy a new tire then!

[NDspd]

Hahaha...good stuff to learn. Glad you are back and running well man!!