How far can you look through the turns?

[csmith12]

So I am riding semi aggressively on the street. Looking through the turns and all. I am finding that I can look so far ahead my turn in point goes out of my FOV. Sometimes I have to look again to ensure I hit the turn in point. This doesn't happen to me on the track.

I am doing my research but can't find much on this topic. What are the limits to how far ahead you can look. Is it purely your FOV or is it relative to speed?

[csmith12]

hmmm, wondering if this is "track brain" leaking into "street brain"

[EthioKnight]

lol...you're probably over thinking things. Being a track-virgin and all, whenever I'm riding the twisties I literally look-through-the-turn and accelerate away...the limits on how far ahead you can look? I'd say that depends on road and how graceful and swan-like your neck is
...gotta look up "turn in point" though..

[alex.s]

My eyes go back and forth

[csmith12]

I am thinking one or more of the following....

out of sync with rhythm of the road
not relaxed enough (track riding brain is in control when street brain should be in control)
just over thinking it, and there is no problem
had an off day
just plain out looking to far ahead and need to reel it back a bit

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

So I am riding semi aggressively on the street. Looking through the turns and all. I am finding that I can look so far ahead my turn in point goes out of my FOV. Sometimes I have to look again to ensure I hit the turn in point. This doesn't happen to me on the track.

I am doing my research but can't find much on this topic. What are the limits to how far ahead you can look. Is it purely your FOV or is it relative to speed?

Let me ask you this, when you are looking through the turn what are you looking at? What should you be looking at when you look into a turn and why?

Misti

[alex.s]

when i am going through a turn i know well, first i look for my braking spot... once i find it i look the next spot, my turn in spot, and then i try to take a quick look at the exit if i can see it to kinda give myself a heads up... then look back for the turn in spot. i use peripheral vision to tell when to hit the brakes... looking at the turn in spot helps me aim correctly to setup for the turn in. once i pass my braking spot i start looking for the apex... hit the turn in spot and im looking for the exit spot as soon as the bike is down... before i get to the apex. but my eyes go kinda crazy so im probably doing it wrong

[Miles_Prower]

when you are in the turn and are trying to keep focusing on the exit, how you not get distracted by a constant flow of cars going the other way? I always find myself trying to look through them but I have to keep looking away or down at the yellow lines ahead so I can see the curve. I don't know what's the best way to do that.

[csmith12]

Hmmmm...

Let's see here, what I am currently doing.

I see approaching corner
I look for turn in point/reference
I look for apex
I turn in
I look for exit/reference (if can be seen)
I hit apex
I scan to find next corner and entry point/reference
I hit exit

My goal, for vision to stay at least one step ahead.

Although on the street, just before turn in, I scan ahead as much as possible for anything that might be labeled as "trouble". Maybe I let my eyes linger to long while scanning. Just felt kinda odd to have to look back, sometimes requiring me to move my head when my reference point is out of my FOV. Everything I have done so far has always been look once and "connect the dots" or "point and shoot". Maybe I was oversensitive to it that day but the closest thing I can describe it to is; it left me with a "rushed" feeling while entering the corners.

EDIT: I left out throttle and braking markers for brevity

[ally99]

Originally Posted by csmith12

So I am riding semi aggressively on the street. Looking through the turns and all. I am finding that I can look so far ahead my turn in point goes out of my FOV. Sometimes I have to look again to ensure I hit the turn in point. This doesn't happen to me on the track.
I am doing my research but can't find much on this topic. What are the limits to how far ahead you can look. Is it purely your FOV or is it relative to speed?

Great post! I have actually had the OPPOSITE experience where I had to adjust my cornering visual skills from street habits to track. In my mountain experience, I had gotten into the habit of looking as FAR through the corner as possible to give me ample time to react if there was a hazard ahead. The downside is I, too, lost track of my turn-in points, but it wasn't a big deal because on the streets I try not to push much speed. However, this was a big reason I crashed at the track. On the track, you know there are corners where you can literally see the end before you even enter it. Picture one of those types of corners. I was in such a habit of looking at the very last point my eyes could see in the corner that I looked at the exit before ever locating my turn in point. I thought I was on target, looking through the corner at the exit, but come to find out, I was farther outside than I thought. Leaning on gator strips equaled crash.
My opinion is that on the street (when we're not riding as aggressively), you look as far as your sight will allow to give you time to react if you have an obstacle ahead. Since your speed won't be as fast as it is on the track (hopefully), having an idea of your turn in points is important, but most crucial is making sure you have time to react if there is a danger ahead.
At my most recent track day, I found myself choosing my turn-in points better. As soon as I knew for sure my bike would go right there no matter what, I would lead with my head and look to either the next turn in point or toward the exit of the corner.

[csmith12]

Yea Ally, I am coming off a near 3 month hiatus from canyon carving. You could almost say I have been all track this season.

And for full disclosure - I wasn't pushing track speeds or dragging knee on the street but I was flirting with a speeding ticket.

[Lychee]

Per those wonderful riding books/videos by Lee parks and Keith Code, a good strategy is to look and find a reference point at the turn in point, then look into the turn before you hit the turn in point, and (while watching your reference point in your peripheral vision) start your turn at your turn in point without actually looking at it.
Try the turn at a slow pace while learning the technique.

[csmith12]

[Lychee]

Yes, I am. Who might you be?

[csmith12]

lol Jon, I am nobody special and meant no disrespect. But I think you can safely assume I am past the basics and trying to fine tune how I ride. Although, I am not above learning something new or have overlooked a simple thing.

[Lychee]

Great, perhaps we can learn from each other. Out of curiosity, do you usually look for your turn in reference point on the outside of the turn, on the inside, or does it vary?

[csmith12]

My preference is whatever side is closest to my line, outside>inside>outside, so most of the time its on the outside but does vary. On the street it varies much much more.

[Lychee]

During the times that you lose the turn in reference point out of your FOV and have to look back, would it have still been in your FOV if the point was on the inside? Hypothetically, I suppose.

[Jiggles]

San Jose rider! Let's go ride!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Lychee

During the times that you lose the turn in reference point out of your FOV and have to look back, would it have still been in your FOV if the point was on the inside? Hypothetically, I suppose.

Hmmmm... I would bet not. I like the way you think sir. Maybe nothing quite wrong at all asside of picking a reference point that don't agree with my style.

Imma ride tomorrow and change some of my points to the inside and see what the outcome is.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

San Jose rider! Let's go ride!

I'm down! How's the leg?

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hmmmm... I would bet not. I like the way you think sir. Maybe nothing quite wrong at all asside of picking a reference point that don't agree with my style.

Imma ride tomorrow and change some of my points to the inside and see what the outcome is.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Lychee

During the times that you lose the turn in reference point out of your FOV and have to look back, would it have still been in your FOV if the point was on the inside? Hypothetically, I suppose.

very interesting point to think about. reference point selection can help or hurt you a lot it seems. if you are wasting your time looking around, its harder to focus on the next steps and setting up for them correctly.

i've heard some people, even some people at top level racing say they dont use individual markers... instead they use larger scale, more vaguely defined markers. hearing them talk about it makes me wonder if focusing on the exact right turn in point or braking point isnt really as important as preparing for the next step... because with the speed you do things on a motorcycle, if you are messing something up now, chances are its from something you did a few steps back, so focusing on the current step is just going to screw up steps down the line... so just focus on the next step

[ally99]

Alex, can I just say your advice always rocks?!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by csmith12

My goal, for vision to stay at least one step ahead.

Alex's advice is normally excellent here but it's kinda like he didn't read all the posts in this thread or is late to the party. I already know to stay one step ahead.

I haven't been able to ride for the past 2 days because of weather and work, I will update this thread when I can get a solid handle on my changes and their results.

[csmith12]

Also, I don't experience this while on the track, it's just the streets. Picking markers that follow the roads path and stay within my FOV makes sense.

My hypothesis is that sometimes some of the most complex of problems have the most simple of answers.

[ally99]

Yes! And some of us (especially me) tend to overthink EVERYTHING! Gets me in trouble sometimes.

[choneofakind]

Side note since I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said: this picture just made my day. Gaahahahahaha!

Originally Posted by csmith12

Posted via Mobile Device

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ally99

Yes! And some of us (especially me) tend to overthink EVERYTHING! Gets me in trouble sometimes.

hahahahah word!

My wife tells me I have OCD when it comes to my riding.

[alex.s]

stuman and others post a lot in the skills section on socal moto, there are some really thought provoking questions they ask. there's one specific post stuman made about picking the right line or the right markers... im too lazy to go find it though. but stuman is a brilliant instructor and an amazing rider. he has some videos on youtube too. guy is nuts. he tells you for new racer school that hes going to close pass you to get you used to it... hes not kidding. guy puts the bike within inches of you effortlessly and precisely then blasts away like you are standing still. great guy

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hmmmm...

Let's see here, what I am currently doing.

I see approaching corner
I look for turn in point/reference
I look for apex
I turn in
I look for exit/reference (if can be seen)
I hit apex
I scan to find next corner and entry point/reference
I hit exit

My goal, for vision to stay at least one step ahead.

Although on the street, just before turn in, I scan ahead as much as possible for anything that might be labeled as "trouble". Maybe I let my eyes linger to long while scanning. Just felt kinda odd to have to look back, sometimes requiring me to move my head when my reference point is out of my FOV. Everything I have done so far has always been look once and "connect the dots" or "point and shoot". Maybe I was oversensitive to it that day but the closest thing I can describe it to is; it left me with a "rushed" feeling while entering the corners.

EDIT: I left out throttle and braking markers for brevity

This is a really good description of how you should allow your eyes to track from one point to the next and always try to stay one step ahead. I'd agree with all your points in that for every given corner you should have a turn in point, an apex point and an exit RP to look at.

You make a good point too about how you can get caught out looking a bit too far ahead and lose sight of where you are in the moment, you had a "rushed feeling" and this is common. A lot of people tell you to look as far ahead through the corner as you can but I think you have to be careful to not look too far ahead too soon or you will end up lost mid corner.

A good pattern is to look through the corner to the exit (or as far ahead as you can see) once you are certain you are going to hit your mid point RP. Do you think that would help you avoid that "rushed" or "lost" feeling?

Originally Posted by Lychee

Per those wonderful riding books/videos by Lee parks and Keith Code, a good strategy is to look and find a reference point at the turn in point, then look into the turn before you hit the turn in point, and (while watching your reference point in your peripheral vision) start your turn at your turn in point without actually looking at it.
Try the turn at a slow pace while learning the technique.

Yes

Originally Posted by alex.s

very interesting point to think about. reference point selection can help or hurt you a lot it seems. if you are wasting your time looking around, its harder to focus on the next steps and setting up for them correctly.

i've heard some people, even some people at top level racing say they dont use individual markers... instead they use larger scale, more vaguely defined markers. hearing them talk about it makes me wonder if focusing on the exact right turn in point or braking point isnt really as important as preparing for the next step... because with the speed you do things on a motorcycle, if you are messing something up now, chances are its from something you did a few steps back, so focusing on the current step is just going to screw up steps down the line... so just focus on the next step

I often say to my students that when you first start trying to find reference points they can be distracting and it can feel like you are riding from point to point but as you progress with your visual skills it changes so that it becomes more fluid. Even though your eyes are still finding very very specific reference points they are moving smoothly from one to the next so that it feels like they are less defined.

When I'm racing I'm looking at very specific reference points and aiming for them (the cone, the brake marker board, the crack in the pavement, the seam, the tree in the distance, whatever) but it flows from one to the next without me getting stuck staring at one point.

Back to the original point though, if you try to look too far ahead, say from your turn in reference point all the way to the exit without touching on where you want your bike to be at the apex, you might not make it there.

Which brings us to another question, how long do you look at your RP? When do you look from your turn point to the apex, or from the apex to the exit?

Misti

[Mocha Man]

With or without my glasses on?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

You make a good point too about how you can get caught out looking a bit too far ahead and lose sight of where you are in the moment, you had a "rushed feeling" and this is common. A lot of people tell you to look as far ahead through the corner as you can but I think you have to be careful to not look too far ahead too soon or you will end up lost mid corner.

Back to the original point though, if you try to look too far ahead, say from your turn in reference point all the way to the exit without touching on where you want your bike to be at the apex, you might not make it there.

Which brings us to another question, how long do you look at your RP? When do you look from your turn point to the apex, or from the apex to the exit?

Misti

Yes. This was one of the main causes of my crash at Little Tally. I skipped my apex reference point which made me turn in too early. I lost myself on the track and before I knew it, I had run too wide and was leaned on rumbles...the violent, gator kind. Just ask my poor brand new scorpion-exo 500 how violent those strips are!
Since then, I've learned I look at my reference point until I know my bike is going straight for it. At the point when I know my bike is heading straight for that spot, I shift my gaze to the next point I want my bike to hit, keeping the current turn-in point in my peripheral. Hope that makes sense. I haven't had my coffee yet this morning. lol!

[alex.s]

so here is a question that has been puzzling me... where are you looking during blind corners where you cant see the apex or exit? i find my self looking at where i think the apex is, even though i cant see it... seems like a waste of my vision. what do you think?

[csmith12]

Thanks again Misty for your insight and confirmation that I am at least on the right track with my thoughts. Based on all the comments here and my findings on a ride with these in mind, I can assert the following;

You can unnecessarily look to far ahead
Take a visual snapshot of the road early & quickly enough to leave you time to adjust entry speed and get back to the upcoming task which is cornering
Sometimes you can pick a bad marker and your new marker may not feel as good at first but it gets better after repetition
You can linger on a marker for to long
When your unsure it's best to just slow down to increase your margin of error

What did I really learn?
How to pick better reference points and how to better control visual focus. Basically there isn't a need to put a lot of visual or mental focus on what is beyond the corner aside of your stopping distance. It also helped with entry speed. What is farther in the distance than that, a quick visual snapshot will do. Removing all that extra visual input at corner entry allows me to get back to cornering sooner, also getting rid of the "rushed" entry feeling.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

so here is a question that has been puzzling me... where are you looking during blind corners where you cant see the apex or exit? i find my self looking at where i think the apex is, even though i cant see it... seems like a waste of my vision. what do you think?

Seems like your creating your own "virtual" reference point. Maybe pick one that you can see that is "inline" with the apex or exit, tougher to do on the street. That is what I do, in the pic below, my exit reference point is the pole with #5 on it, as the true exit is blind.



I also found this, hope it's helpful to you http://www.roadrunner.travel/magazin...age/87/digital

[subxero]

nothing like reviving an old post

I have been trying to work on looking through the turns as well. But not sure that is my problem or combination of things. I am pretty good at seeing my line through a turn and hitting the apex (based on entire lane) and accelerating through. My problem is that i only ride on the street and the issue is more with left handers because of increased danger (on coming traffic) as it is almost muscle memory at this point to kiss the apex. I have done it for years in my cars. But on a bike hitting the apex of a left hander finds me dancing close to the double yellow a lot which would be fine if there was not traffic the other way coming at me but there is.
I guess i just kind of get sucked into the apex of the turn based on the double yellow or even single white line on inside of a righty because i find it hard to to create an imaginary apex that is based more in the middle of the lane which would keep me further away from the other on coming lane of traffic.

does this make sense?

[csmith12]

Yep, sure does make sense. I can toss you my take on that issue.

You want to leave a considerable margin of error and space between you an oncoming traffic from the other lane because if you have enough lean and are close enough to the double yellow, your upper body/head can actually be in the other lane.

The way I see it is, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". So how do I mostly prevent it? First, while riding on the street, I nearly always take a delayed apex (late turn in) approach and line. This will help maximize you vision through the corner, giving you more time to adjust entry speed and line, especially if you need to factor for oncoming traffic. If you can adjust your line, you can prevent being close to oncoming traffic. Problem "mostly" solved. Second, Yea, I said mostly.... Fact of the matter is, you should be going slow enough that in that event, you could confidently make a steering correction to get you out of the danger zone. Confidently being the keyword here.

And think about this....
It's very common for riders to turn in to early? Do you do that? Well, cagers do it to. And where does that put the car in relation to a rider apexing close to the double yellow? Yep... to d*mn close imho. This is covered very well in the Twist of the Wrist II movie. If you get the chance to watch it, do it.

So 2 things. Do you sometimes feel you enter a corner to early and do you think a delayed apex will help address your concern?

Great question by the way.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by csmith12

how far ahead you can look?

this far:

[csmith12]

[subxero]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Yep, sure does make sense. I can toss you my take on that issue.

You want to leave a considerable margin of error and space between you an oncoming traffic from the other lane because if you have enough lean and are close enough to the double yellow, your upper body/head can actually be in the other lane.

The way I see it is, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". So how do I mostly prevent it? First, while riding on the street, I nearly always take a delayed apex (late turn in) approach and line. This will help maximize you vision through the corner, giving you more time to adjust entry speed and line, especially if you need to factor for oncoming traffic. If you can adjust your line, you can prevent being close to oncoming traffic. Problem "mostly" solved. Second, Yea, I said mostly.... Fact of the matter is, you should be going slow enough that in that event, you could confidently make a steering correction to get you out of the danger zone. Confidently being the keyword here.

And think about this....
It's very common for riders to turn in to early? Do you do that? Well, cagers do it to. And where does that put the car in relation to a rider apexing close to the double yellow? Yep... to d*mn close imho. This is covered very well in the Twist of the Wrist II movie. If you get the chance to watch it, do it.

So 2 things. Do you sometimes feel you enter a corner to early and do you think a delayed apex will help address your concern?

Great question by the way.

I definitely don't turn in to early, but am thinking perhaps a delayed apex could help me out, guess i kind of need to re-train my brain to not use a point on the double yellow as the apex, it is tough because it is so easy to visualize the apex on the double yellow. I am still a rookie when it comes to the street so i've got lots of time to perfect the trade. Slow and steady i suppose

Thanks for the analysis and tips