What is going on here...

[Ninja Chris]

Came across this gem on rnickeymouse channel. I don't canyon carve myself but I found this video really interesting. It seems there is a common mistake or road element at play, because the same symptoms appear regardless of rider or type of bike.

Link to original page on YouTube.

I had an opportunity to sit in on the Yamaha Champion Rider School session at the Long Beach IMS and they discussed at great length how a lot of riders repeat the same errors over and over until they scared themselves enough to quit riding, wreck their bike/body, or both.

So my question for those of you who have invested a great deal in developing/pushing your riding skills (i.e. track time, riding schools, instructors). What mistakes are being made here and how would you correct them?

To those who would about riding muholund like this (and on the streets in general), I do not disagree. I have no interest in emulating these guys. I am however, extremely interested in better understanding the mechanics of my bike and improving my riding skills; thus your experience/knowledge on this phenomenon is welcome and appreciated. So for the sake of learning (and staying on topic, can we pretend this is a turn on a track with the same camber, radius, etc?

What causes the...

• Audible spike in engine RPM
• Loss of traction
• feel free to build on this list

My best guess (please correct as necessary)... entry speed is higher than they are able to realistically navigate. They aren't able to maintain their original line through the turn and to compensate grab the front brake, compressing the front suspension and removing traction from the rear wheel (I'm working off the 100pt of traction metaphor).
I'm puzzled by the revving I hear. Not sure if it's from the rear wheel breaking traction and spinning freely or if they are actually adding throttle input accidentally or too early (it doesn't seem to be a clutch issue. No one seems to be using it in the slowed down replay).

Looking forward to your input

Here's a little ditty that picks up where the video above left off and makes you say

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Trailerboy531]

double link fail!

[EsrTek]

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Gurk]

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Gurk]

hahahha guess i'm late

[csmith12]

[Gurk]

My response is simple. Chill on canyons and enjoy a relaxed riding, push and learn at the track.

Then again, when I say push at the track, you don't have to ride at 100% to learn. you can chill and take less risks and still learn tons at the track too..

That's about it. It's a horse beaten to death so I'm not gonna go in why canyons are not the place to learn technique. You can apply the technique you learn at the track. But you can't learn SAFELY at the canyons...

My 2 cents.

[Ninja Chris]

EsrTek, thanks for the link assist

I hear you Gurk, though it seems there's been a miscommunication. I don't want to know how to ride Muholnd. I'm interested with why these fellows are seemingly losing control so consistently across the board. I commute and enjoy cruising two up with my fiance. I don't push it... have no desire to. If I came across some track video of multiple riders screwing up similarly in the same spot on the track I'd have asked the same question. If I've posted in the wrong forum please point me in the direction of the right place to ask such a question.

csmith12 any suggestions to improve the clarity of my question or make it less inflammatory?

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by Ninja Chris

I'm interested with why these fellows are seemingly losing control so consistently across the board.

Why? because that spot is popular. my guess is they are trying to prove how awesome of a rider they are in front of the camera.. They ride above their ability and bin it. I'm sure some can legitimately blame cold tires, debris on the road, etc but in the end, it's 99% the rider's fault.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Ninja Chris

csmith12 any suggestions to improve the clarity of my question or make it less inflammatory?

There is nothing wrong with your question mate. No such thing as a dumb question ya know... Maybe break it up into a series of smaller questions that are more specific so the answers can be more focused and easier to answer in a web format. In general, generic and vague questions, get generic and vague answers.

As Gurk pointed out, nearly all the riders in the vid share a common mistake. Pushing too hard on the street. But.... if a given rider is going to do it anyway, then might as well be as educated and skilled as possible. There are a list of skills that can be applied to one's riding to avoid the common issues found in that video.

Chopping throttle - See how many riders in that first video slide the rear, chop the throttle to 0 and come out of the seat? TOTW2 teaches a smooth roll off will keep you connected to the bike and your bum on the seat, while others say to stay on the gas and let the bike work it out. I prefer to be in control, not the bike. It depends on how comfortable you are sliding around. Watch the rider @ 1:42 (red/white leathers), he does it right and stays in control, no throttle chop but does stay in the gas. Then compare that to the rider (white R6) @ 2:11 and watch his throttle hand closely, replay as needed. Perfect and clear example of what NOT to do.

Greedy throttle - A smooth roll on is very important. Get on the gas to hard to fast and your just setting yourself up for the rear kicking out (audible spike in rpm as it slides out) or going wide. Our 250's don't have this problem for the most part but on larger cc bikes it's not hard to get greedy. It doesn't take much more than a slow and steady twist to get the weight off the front and transferred to the rear in a controlled way to not overload the rear. Rider @ 52 seconds is a great example.

Charging corners - Simply entering the corner to hot. Easier one to fix, slow down and do it early. Or learn to set entry speed in a way that keeps you in control.

Lazy steering/Turning to early - Basically where and how fast does a rider turn. Many riders (and cagers) turn in to early and slowly. This basically sets them up for a mid-corner steering correction and throttle roll issues. When a bike is at the edge of traction from the initial turn in, trying to counter steer a bit more to correct line can break traction of the rear if on the gas or break traction of the front if you’re off the gas. Your turn in point is IMHO, the most important part of cornering. Nothing effects the tone and outcome of the entire corner more than the turn in point. It affects everything; braking, line, throttle, apex and so on.

Finally, I am sure you know there are "gotcha spots" along any given route. Maybe this is one of them. Since I have never ridden Muholund I can't say for sure but for any given stretch of pavement or even a race track there will be spots where more crashes happen. Sometimes there are non-rider reasons for this. In this case it most likely the environment that is the cause most of these crashes. I don't mean the road, not the weather... it's the guys with cameras. The riders know they are there and want a good photo. It's a lot like trying to keep up with riders that are faster them, they try to get lower, drag knee, ect, ect than their skill may allow.

There are other basic issues that the riders in the vid have to work out. Mostly body position, braking, line selection and managing SR's. Each one deserving of their own threads. But at least gives you a starting point of what to look for.

In the end, being aware of your environment as it relates to a riders skill is all that it takes to eliminate most "almost" crashes. My recommendation to you is to read/watch TOTW2 or equivalent. Maybe even do a track day where you can validate a good set of coaches/classes. A rider is not "required" to go silly fast on the track in the Novice/C group. Just tell the coaches your goals and they will make it happen.

What are you goals as a rider? Looking to get more into canyon carving? Safer commute? More confident while 2 up?

[csmith12]

The scariest stuff happens after 2:45 in the first video.

[subxero]

wow that curve looks like a death trap in the down hill direction. All those cars not staying in their lanes..... scary stuff.

[Racer x]

The cagers are amazing. they drive on the wrong side of the road like that is normal???
The bikes showed good skill hitting sand on a corner.bad judgment but good skill. The cars are a joke. Worst drivers ever.

[himynameisjoe]

lol I really liked that little chevy pickup. WTF?!?!

[lgk]

Originally Posted by subxero

wow that curve looks like a death trap in the down hill direction. All those cars not staying in their lanes..... scary stuff.

i think its a spiral curve with bank, so most people go in too fast will lose control.

[CC Cowboy]

I really don't see anything wrong in the video. All the riders hit the same patch of antifreeze the photographer puts down for action shots.

[dfox]

there's oil and other contaminants in the middle of a lane.

if you're taking a line that goes from outside to inside to outside, on the street, expect low traction as you go across the oil drips in the center of the lane.

[Ninja Chris]

@cmsith12
Thanks for your explanation! Seriously, this is the type of discussion I was hoping for. You also made good points about asking questions on the webs and I'll keep them in mind next time I give it a go.

Originally Posted by csmith12

What are you goals as a rider? Looking to get more into canyon carving? Safer commute? More confident while 2 up?

My goal is to continue improving my skills and knowledge as a rider (sport bikes in particular) to the best of my abilities/full potential. For me that means understanding as much as possible; the physics involved, riding technique, biomechanics (because of my work machine and gear maintenance, traffic hazards, etc.

I thoroughly enjoy taking a turn smoothly... man that never fails to put a big grin on my face. But I'm not interested in pushing my limits or the limits of my machine while canyon carving. I've had a performance driving lessons, attended track/auto-x events and decided long before I got Constance that's the route I would take to grow as a rider.

I've watched TOTW (someone posted it here in this forum, not sure if it was #2) several times and continue to talk with more experienced/successful riders/racers when the opportunity arises. I'm also saving up to attend a riding school in the latter part of the year. Eventually, I'll work my way around to a track day.

It has been awesome commuting and just as fun when riding 2 up. I feel comfortable in both situations, however, I'm always looking to learn/improve. My fiance and I continue to practice whenever there's time and we're planning to take riding classes that will teach/evaluate 2 up technique. I consider myself very blessed, that she loves to ride pillion and wants to take the MSF ASAP.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

There is nothing wrong with your question mate. No such thing as a dumb question ya know...

Outstanding post, Chris !!

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I really don't see anything wrong in the video. All the riders hit the same patch of antifreeze the photographer puts down for action shots.

Very clever trick

[02337]

Would never put myself at risk with knowing te type of idiotic people who drive cars on that road. It's so common lately where people buy luxury performance cars and think they can handle turns like they're on a track.... Same goes with 90% of the cars on there that were lowered probably driven by people who have never had a actual time where they've slides and learned how to correct it or ride it out. They all mash the brakes and ommediately oversteer the opposite direction and wonder why their car went the other direction when it caught traction.

Jut because you're car is lowered on low profiles does not mean its set up for any type of performance rallying....

Most of them are way too scared to even slow down enough to maintain their lane and get off the brakes and on throttle through the turn, instead lets just enter a turn doing 60, freak out when we realize we're dumb and don't know the cars limits....

I know it's a post about bikes but people who drive like mongoloids in "tuner" cars I feel the same about as when you see people in flip flops and t shirts doing wheelies...

[bighurt35]

In my eyes it is stupid for the bikes to be on this road if they know that cars are going to be stupid, they are just testing fate but I might be a bit jealous I live in a very boring part of Missouri with no roads even close to this one!