The flop and quick turning - feeling of falling?

[adouglas]

@csmith12 @Misti

Something that many of us have experienced is a feeling that, when turning, the bike wants to fall over and we have to "catch" it.

You can see something like this fall/catch happen in the TOTW2 video when there's slo-mo footage of the the lean 'n slide bike, though it's for a different reason, of course (loss of traction). I'm talking about dry pavement and good traction conditions.

My understanding is that this unstable falling sensation is caused by failure to use enough throttle. But that's not the question I have.

Related to the discussions of quick turning and lack of confidence in getting the bike turned...

Is this brief sensation of falling part of the normal picture when executing a quick turn?

I know from past posts and reading that it's pretty much impossible to steer so hard you throw the bike onto the ground, especially at track speeds. But in that brief period between the aggressive steering input and the bike settling into the turn, do you actually feel like you're falling?

If so that might be something for me to work on. The feeling of falling is a big SR trigger. I've been trying to avoid that sensation, but if it's something normal, perhaps I should be expecting it -- even looking for it -- and focusing on the catch at the end.

What got me thinking about this was remembering my days of skiing (which ended more than 30 years ago when I blew my knee out). When doing a fast turn you unweight the skis, rotate and then land firmly on the inside edge, which grabs and carves... you basically jump onto the downhill ski and the edge catches you. The moment before it catches, you're in free fall -- hence a brief feeling of falling that ends with a beautiful carved turn.

[Sirref]

I have some experience with this so I'll add some input, my responses are bolded

Originally Posted by adouglas

Something that many of us have experienced is a feeling that, when turning, the bike wants to fall over and we have to "catch" it.

This is normal, except you don't need to catch it you just feel as though you do at first. Over time you'll figure out just how much you want to steer the bike and how much force that takes. It's a learning process, I found myself over-steering constantly while figuring out this technique and had to reinvent my whole track plan to adjust to the new turn in speed

You can see something like this fall/catch happen in the TOTW2 video when there's slo-mo footage of the the lean 'n slide bike, though it's for a different reason, of course (loss of traction). I'm talking about dry pavement and good traction conditions.

My understanding is that this unstable falling sensation is caused by failure to use enough throttle. But that's not the question I have.

it's a natural sensation for turning a bike, it simply becomes more noticeable when the turning is done quickly

Do not add throttle while turning in, the rear will be very prone to breaking traction if this is attempted

Related to the discussions of quick turning and lack of confidence in getting the bike turned...

Is this brief sensation of falling part of the normal picture when executing a quick turn?
yes, though you find yourself adjusting to it. Personally I no longer feel it since I am actively trying to throw myself and the bike into the corner. I believe it's a perception thing and your mind has not yet adjusted to it, similar to how mind bendingly fast bikes are at first but you adjust to the speed and acceleration the more you experience it

I know from past posts and reading that it's pretty much impossible to steer so hard you throw the bike onto the ground, especially at track speeds. But in that brief period between the aggressive steering input and the bike settling into the turn, do you actually feel like you're falling?

I disagree with this, you can throw the bike onto the ground but only by throwing the bike into a hard part like a footpeg with enough force for it to catch and destabilize the bike.

covered already but yes at first but the mind adjusts, I do get the sensation from time to time but I quite enjoy it now

If so that might be something for me to work on. The feeling of falling is a big SR trigger. I've been trying to avoid that sensation, but if it's something normal, perhaps I should be expecting it -- even looking for it -- and focusing on the catch at the end.

not the way I would do it myself, I would treat it like csmith12's black and white braking by adding a little bit of speed at a time. Baby steps are the name of the game when it comes to finding your limits safely. Try to find the limit of lean you want then work your way up to getting to that limit as quickly as possible without overshooting your goal. Control is more important than speed until speed can be controlled

[csmith12]

I will get to you soon Mr. Fist, just got back from TN.

[adouglas]

Thanks, man.

Hope Jennings was great!

Last night we had 20 below wind chills. Spent the evening wrenching to stay warm....

[csmith12]

After my travels south over the past 2 weeks through snow and mountains I am finally safe and warm at home. Jennings is always awesome when you roll in 30+ riders deep for 3 days of riding. Just wish it was a bit warmer in the mornings. TN was good too, some a weekend R&R VDay trip.

Anyway.... Back to your question.

When you first start turning the bike faster without adding more entry speed, it forces the rider to focus solely on the turning skill, as it is the only thing that is changing. Ie, the sr's of adding lean angle quickly (falling sensation) are felt more intensely. Imho, it’s completely normal from my experience and is part of isolating the bike tech so you can improve the rider skill aspect. Now let's also be really, honest here... Unless you make some sort of catastrophic mistake, it is very unlikely that you will push the bar until you’re scraping hard parts when first starting out. Your brain, to hand, to buttox isn't wired together like that and the sr's will let's just say… "assist" you to stop pushing the bar. Nobody really throws themselves on the ground on purpose like that ya know. As Ben said, oversteering (mid corner steering corrections) is one of the most common tangible issues at first, but can be managed fairly well by taking baby steps. A little harder -> next lap, a little harder -> next lap, a little harder until you find your limit or the bikes.

As your accuracy in steering improves, as well as your personal tolerance for quickly adding lean angle, you can add entry speed as confidence allows. The feelings of added entry speed will begin to overcome/replace the sr’s of falling over faster. To put it bluntly… for me, it is no longer a falling sensation. It changed to a “change of direction” sensation and “in my mind” should match the corner entry speed. For example, if I am coming into a corner faster, the faster the change of direction should feel. Yin and yang if you will... No need to rush building the skill to a super high level either, it took me 20+ track days to come to terms with it (baby steps ) and that quick change of direction feel is what I am now looking for when riding at pace. You also mentioned skiing and the edge catching you. The closest I can relate that to riding is, when the ski catches you and you feel planted, that similar feeling can be achieved by getting back to the throttle as soon as the steering is complete. You have heard me say it before… “replace the feelings of instability with those that inspire confidence” and stay relaxed as possible.

But actually… let’s look at the falling sensation more closely, which is the meat and potatoes of your question and also pick your brain a little. Out of the 7 sr’s, which is one(s) are you having while trying to overcome adding lean angle quickly? Once we know which your having, we can begin to isolate and help defeat them. I will start you off by asking a question that should help you get going in the right direction.

When turning, where is your vision and attention at? In the moment of steering? Or in the future by looking and anticipating the next point? Do you think that the change of focal point will mentally numb the falling sensation a bit? If you were looking farther ahead, would you see yourself falling so fast?

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

To put it bluntly… for me, it is no longer a falling sensation. It changed to a “change of direction” sensation and “in my mind” should match the corner entry speed.....

You also mentioned skiing and the edge catching you. The closest I can relate that to riding is, when the ski catches you and you feel planted, that similar feeling can be achieved by getting back to the throttle as soon as the steering is complete.

I suspected as much, and thanks for confirming. I liken this to learning how to jump off stuff when you're a kid... the sensation of falling is alien and uncomfortable until you learn that you'll be okay. Then you're fine.

I know for sure I can catch the bike. Even now, from time to time I have a "moment" where I don't get on the gas enough to keep the bike stable. The most recent was just last year, on the first day at Palmer. I was going uphill through the esses (4-5) and in 5 had that sickening falling feeling. I've always been able to get out of it, and I now have a better idea of what's happening.

I vaguely remember learning to ski (it was a LONG time ago) and that transition from stable, snowplow bunny-slope contact with Mother Earth to unweighting like a boss while flying down a steep hill was a similar thing. But as you say... once you've got the idea planted, it no longer feels like falling any more than running down the stairs does.

But when you're going down a staircase, not looking, and there's one more step than you expect... bingo. You're right back to having your stomach up in your throat as you stumble. So it's hard-wired, and getting past it is a learned skill.

Originally Posted by csmith12

But actually… let’s look at the falling sensation more closely, which is the meat and potatoes of your question and also pick your brain a little. Out of the 7 sr’s, which is one(s) are you having while trying to overcome adding lean angle quickly?

I'd say 6 (ineffective steering) for sure, and probably 2 (tight on the bars).

Originally Posted by csmith12

When turning, where is your vision and attention at? In the moment of steering? Or in the future by looking and anticipating the next point? Do you think that the change of focal point will mentally numb the falling sensation a bit? If you were looking farther ahead, would you see yourself falling so fast?

I'm definitely looking ahead, and making a point of doing so. But I'm sweeping to/past my markers instead of deliberately GOING straight to them (per your comment in another thread "Stop steering when your bike is on line and pointed at the apex").

At the same time, I'm avoiding those quick inputs to stay away from that threshold where the feeling of falling kicks in. So my attention must be divided between where I'm looking and what the bike is doing in the moment.

Hence the early turn-ins, missing of apexes and broad, lazy lines. I feel like I'm nailing the marks but I'm really not. I'll roll over the white X but the bike won't be pointed where it really should.

In the follow video of me that you posted, I can really see this in the last horseshoe at Palmer, where there's a loooong left followed by a jog right. Your line clips the late apex on the left, and then goes straight to the apex on the right. Mine swoops. In videos of the fast guys, sometimes they kick up dust from that right apex.

The slow steering and loopy lines must be limiting my pace. The speed feels right, but it feels right only because it's slow enough to let me be lazy. I need to re-map where my 75%-of-capacity line threshold is. I'm probably not riding close enough to it.

Having ridden with me a couple of times and exchanged a lot of REALLY useful banter, I think you have a pretty good idea of how my so-called brain works. I'm really big on visualization and analogy. For me it's about getting that picture/idea planted and then getting reality to match it. So these new images (going TO the apex instead of arcing towards it, and falling into the turn) are something for me to think about and work with.

[dcj13]

The "falling it" feeling also varies greatly from bike to bike: rake; trail; mass; mass moments of inertia; CG; tires; suspension; etc.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by dcj13

The "falling it" feeling also varies greatly from bike to bike: rake; trail; mass; mass moments of inertia; CG; tires; suspension; etc.

Soooo true! An HD feels like turning a tank to me because the front feels soooooo heavy. The lill 250 feels like a bicycle on day two at the track after tossing around the r6 pretty hard. The empulse (electric bike) also felt heavy But throw a fat man power cup (V profile) on the front of that r6 and it will feel like it turns by just breathing. If turning fast is something you're getting used to... avoid V profiles on that r6. Trust me, when I want the r6 to turn faster than a 250, I toss one on. They are no joke.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

......... I'm really big on visualization and analogy......

While waiting for winter to go away, you could try an experiment, which may be able to help you in some degree.

Use the level built-in a smart phone or construct something simple, like the attached picture shows.
Temporarily, anchor the base to your rear mirror in such a way that the pendulum can move sideways (parallel to the windshield).
The base should have a little inclination, so the string drags some over it as the pendulum oscillates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclinometer

Drive your car to an empty parking lot, big enough to allow some quick and lazy turns.
Having a passenger observing the inclinometer would be better.

First experiment is to observe how the pendulum consistently "falls" into the lean angle dictated by your speed and steering radius.
It never overshoots simply because it points to the dynamic state of balance, which is not vertical as when driving over a straight line (no cornering forces).
If you could replace the plumb with a miniature bike, hanging from that string, with spinning wheels and pointing forward, you would see that the movement from vertical to inclined takes longer.

The cause of that "slower flick" is that, with all its rotating masses, that bike would show a resistance to adopt the angle corresponding to the dynamic state of balance: that is the principle on which gyroscopes work.
Due to that phenomena we need to fight the bike to flick quicker.
However, it is harder for the bike to overshoot, more than it was for the free pendulum.

Second experiment is to U-turn the car between two marks or limits, one sometimes using a lazy steering and sometimes using a sharp, precise and quick steering input.
You will be able to observe that:
1) For lazy steering input: The speed at which the pendulum moves is slower, reaching a higher (final) angle of inclination respect to vertical, which it does no overshoot.
2) For quick steering input: The speed at which the pendulum moves is faster, reaching a lower (final) angle of inclination respect to vertical, which it still does no overshoot. You and your passenger (as well as the contact patches of your tires) will feel less centrifugal force than during #1.

The quick flick technique is equivalent to #2: The speed at which the bike rolls over is faster, reaching a smaller final lean angle, which is very difficult to overshoot.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I'd say 6 (ineffective steering) for sure, and probably 2 (tight on the bars).

How about this...
sr 6 - lazy steering kicks off sr
3 - attention and focus becomes more of a 50/50 mix vs 90/10 blend between "present" via buttox and "future" via vision, which kicks off sr
2 - tight on bars, which kicks off sr
6 - frozen or no additional steering, which kicks off sr
4 - you have a “moment” (falling) and lose all predetermined focus on the next input, which kicks off sr
1 - rolling off gas or not rolling on enough, which results in running wide and/or further feelings of instability

Sound about right?

Per your request, let's venture into areas that you 100% for sure know about. Does a new pilot make extremely sharp turns? Or must they work up to acclimating themselves to the forces felt? How about sharp changes in altitude? If memory serves me correctly, there is a controlled maneuver that can mimic weightlessness (Zero G plane), but somehow... the fear of falling is not there. Hmmmm.... I believe I know why, but I bet you know better than I do.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by Motofool

...the inclinometer...

Wonderful analogy!

[adouglas]

So in the wee hours last night I was lying awake (thank you, aging process) and decided to pass the time with some visualization. I ran some laps of Thompson in my head, imagining hard braking and quick-turning.

I got this image of turning too much and heading right for the inside of the corner at Turn 1, triggering a whole new string of SRs.

[RacinNinja]

Never thought about this much until now. Been running laps of the local tracks over and over in my head and I've come to a conclusion. Smoothness negates the falling feeling. No jerky movements, no sudden movements is probably why I've never noticed it before. I have received compliments from passengers on the street about how smooth I am (yeah, tooting my own horn, I know.....) and this is where I draw my conclusion from. There are some quick turns on the local tracks that have you swapping sides back and forth quickly yet I've never felt like I was going to fall over or fall quickly or fall too far and hit the ground.

[SLOWn60]

It's not the falling; it's the landing! In otherwords; quickly getting to max lean angle but not releasing the push fast enough & lowsiding.
The other concern is messing up (too hot or not quite quick steer enough) and shooting wide.

All coments refer to on track, not street.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Never thought about this much until now. Been running laps of the local tracks over and over in my head and I've come to a conclusion. Smoothness negates the falling feeling. No jerky movements, no sudden movements is probably why I've never noticed it before. I have received compliments from passengers on the street about how smooth I am (yeah, tooting my own horn, I know.....) and this is where I draw my conclusion from. There are some quick turns on the local tracks that have you swapping sides back and forth quickly yet I've never felt like I was going to fall over or fall quickly or fall too far and hit the ground.

I would have to agree with this. Smoothness in the push takes away the feeling of falling so it is finding the balance between getting the bike turned super quickly without it feeling like it has been jammed over "too fast".

I also think that you need to get the idea of "stopping the bike from falling over" out of your head. It is very unlikely that you are ever going to turn the bike so hard that it crashes or flops over and instead of telling my students that they need to "Stop the bike" from leaning over farther it is more along the lines of STABILIZING the bike once it is at the lean angle you want. So, press on the bar quickly to get the bike to turn and then instead of doing anything else, you just simple STOP pressing the bar when you are at the lean angle you want and begin the roll on.

Once students realize that they don't need to STOP THE BIKE FROM LEANING OVER FARTHER, that they just STOP PRESSING the bar, then that feeling of falling or tipping or stopping the turn, fades away.

Have you noticed a tendency to try and DO SOMETHING? When you get the bike to the lean angle you want? Most people press on the opposite bar to "stop the lean" but this isn't necessary....

Misti

[adouglas]

STG just posted a very short video of Bradley Smith cornering. It shows with extreme clarity what I was talking about with the carved ski turn analogy.

You can easily see how he's falling into the turn and catching himself as the suspension loads, just the way a slalom skier does. You can also see, via the heat plume of the exhaust, EXACTLY when he gets on the throttle.

This is hugely informative to me.

Comments? Do you see something different when you watch this?

It strikes me that there may be some confusion over my use of the term "falling." I don't mean falling over as in crashing or dropping the bike. I mean what's shown in this clip.

PS: It's a lot easier to see what's happening if you play the three-second clip over and over in quick succession.

PPS: Sorry, can't embed it because it's not on YouTube.

https://fat.gfycat.com/SeparateImpishHellbender.mp4

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

......Comments? Do you see something different when you watch this?.......

Note the huge amount of degrees of turn (not lean) or change of direction covered during the transition (fall), respect to before and after states of balance.

That is an important advantage of the quick flick technique because, besides that short period, the only way to achieve degrees of change in direction is by max lean.

I see an explosion of the exhaust simultaneously with the closing of the throttle, which is a backfire.

See how the rear contact patch gets deformed under the cornering loads.

[toEleven]

As you've said, i think the issue is terminology, not what's being described. "Falling" reads to me - and perhaps others - as a loss of control, something external that happens to you. Misti et all seem to be describing the same technique and physical effects, but emphasizing that this is very much a controlled descent.

Falling on your face is decidedly unpleasant; dropping into a push up position may contain the same motions, starting and ending positions, but has none of that sense of danger.

re: throttle in the video - to my eye his right hand is coming off the throttle when that plume comes up.

edit: Motofool types faster than i do.

[csmith12]

Man... there is a lot going on in that short clip. Give me some time to get back with you, I have a very busy day ahead of me.

In the meantime, watch that vid in slow motion. Pay special attention to the alignment of the front and rear wheels and you can specifically see the steering input (start and stop). Also note his elbows and hand movements during the "flop".

There are 4 events that I want you to be able to catch;
When the steering input starts
When the steering input ends
When the bike comes on line
When the throttle comes back on

And a question for you... Why are his forks riding near the top of the stroke at the very start of the clip?

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I see an explosion of the exhaust simultaneously with the closing of the throttle, which is a backfire.

Yeah, I noticed that but thought there must be something else going on. I mean, he's closing the throttle at the same moment the suspension loads and the bike carves the turn.

Isn't that backwards? I thought that at that point you should be on maintenance throttle at the very least, if not rolling it on.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by toEleven

As you've said, i think the issue is terminology, not what's being described. "Falling" reads to me - and perhaps others - as a loss of control, something external that happens to you. Misti et all seem to be describing the same technique and physical effects, but emphasizing that this is very much a controlled descent.

That's it exactly. If you jump off a box and land in a smooth, controlled way, you are literally falling. That doesn't mean you're out of control.

Guess I didn't make that clear enough.

If you ski and have done a transition like this, you know the feeling precisely.

[Panda]

I typically associate the sense of falling when your body unloads and you feel less than 1G.

I've never experienced the sense of falling when flopping into a turn. If I'm not misunderstanding the motion it sounds dangerous as if you're also probably un-weighting the tires as the bike pivots around the CoG.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

If you ski and have done a transition like this, you know the feeling precisely.

If I feel where you're coming from, It don't translate to the world of bikes well for the average rider. The super light feeling you're describing, followed by a heavy loaded suspension just shouldn't happen very often in track riding for us non alien folk. Now, for the select few and the occasional really fast rider at a trackday or race, they may experience a really hard and fast side to side transition to near max lean angles. At some point in that very fast transition, everything may lighten up as seen in the video. Where you see this most is in chicanes, also in the video.

Since "falling" weight is the main topic of this thread, lets chat about it for a bit in the context of the video.

Video Starts - Rider is on the throttle. How do I know? The whole bike is rising - weight toward rear
Next - Rider rolls off the throttle and turns at the same time - weight in transition to front and rider still has some body weight on pegs due to "sliding" across the seat
Next - Just before bike settles to desired lean, rider relaxes legs and full rider body weight is loaded to the seat (you can see him thump down) - weight still in transition but more front loaded
Next - Bike settles on desired line (suspension loads up) - weight more toward front
Next - Rider finished roll off and repositions hand for roll on (bike backfires unspent fuel) - weight more toward front
Next - Rider lowers upper torso and head - weight more toward front
Next - The steering is complete, entry speed is set and the rider begins throttle roll - weight transitions back to rear
Next - Bike 100% stable for corner

So, there are a few moments where the weight is in transition and the rider is following along and his legs become part of the suspension. I believe this is what you're talking about in this entire thread is about those milliseconds where your legs are holding up some of your body weight at the tip point and through part of the initial lean. Now that we know what you're really talking about, we can start to address some of those concerns.

1st and foremost... Make sure you're not lifting yourself out of the seat too far.
2nd 1st and foremost... It's been my experience that when riders actually "REALLY", "REALLY" start to feel counter steering work for them, they feel that the bike turns really fast, almost too fast . As it should, after all... your bike was designed to turn fast. Which leads to some apprehensiveness about it.

Remember what I said... the key is to "Replace the feelings of instability with the feelings that inspire confidence as quickly as possible". So what are some ways to do that? Can the rider unconsciously try to hold themselves and the bike move away from the riders back side becoming more disconnected? If you're holding yourself up too far off the seat, how are you locked on the bike? What if a rider has sloppy foot placement? Are you flowing with the bike or playing catch up (this is a timing/smoothness concern)?

There is a line that all riders need to observe;

The bike telling the rider what to do
----------------------------------------------------------
The rider telling the bike what to do <- Stay on this side of the line.

Bottom line (no pun intended ), when the rider is telling the bike what to do, the rider knows what to expect. And again from my experience... "falling" is always unexpected.

EDIT: Watch the vid again in slow mo. When the rider's weight thumps down on the seat, the whole bike compresses down. This may be his style of feeling available traction to know how aggressive he can be with the throttle.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Yeah, I noticed that but thought there must be something else going on. I mean, he's closing the throttle at the same moment the suspension loads and the bike carves the turn.

Isn't that backwards? I thought that at that point you should be on maintenance throttle at the very least, if not rolling it on.

I would agree, but it might sound pretentious in this case.
I take it as a technique that worked for those particular conditions, coming from a GP professional racer like Bradley Smith.

For street riding, I never combine quick flick with a brake-loaded front contact patch.
As I understand it, that would be equivalent to braking and leaning simultaneously: yes, it can be done safely, but it requires a finesse that consumes attention.
All my attention is devoted to traffic and road surface.

Excellent post, @csmith12!!!

Watching the video again, I have noticed that the "landing" part of the "falling" had two steps.
A soft landing at less lean angle, followed for a few degrees more of lean to adjust for a tighter radius of turn (possibly due to unloaded rear tire's slip).

@adouglas, if you visualize the CG of the rider by his belly bottom, and the CG of the bike by the top of the engine, you can see that the CG of the rider vertically descends (he feels less weight) and simultaneously moves towards the center of the turn (respect to the track described by the tires) (he feels the seat pushing in that direction).

All that happens while his body rotates and the "weight" vector points towards the line between both contact patches (he is "falling" into a new dynamically balanced condition dictated solely by the speed and radius of turn: his GC is aligned with contact patches).
The CG of the bike vertically descends (less than the rider's) and simultaneously moves towards the exterior of the turn (respect to the trajectory of the combined rider+bike GC).

[Linkin]

I find that if I am doing slow turns so that I don't have to countersteer, and the bike wants to tip in further, my rear tyre pressure is low compared to the front.