What do you guys think of this?

[KawiKid860]

Link to original page on YouTube.

1. I hope I embedded it right this time

2. I think this guy had plenty of room to stop... it looks like he's just completely incompetent when it comes to braking. Hard to say from a video though... He obviously locked one of his brakes (looks like the rear to me as he sort of fishtailed) which is a good sign he panicked and wasn't able to brake properly.

[Snake]

Yea he locked up his rear brake and should have swerved to his right instead of the direction the car was going.

[sLick415]

Front brake wouldve saved him.

[aeroblade]

Plenty of room to stop... :| Even if he had ABS I feel he would have ended up the same lol.

[KawiKid860]

I think abs would have helped because it would have kept him from locking up his rear... but he should have been able to avoid that easily without any nannies helping him.

[LNasty]

I know this is going to piss some chicks off on here, but this is why girls shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel! They are worse than elderly people! I would have freaked the f**k out on this chick

[ChickenRun]

He's already slowing down and beginning to swerve as he approaches, but then clamps the brakes at the last second. I think because he thought the car saw him and wasn't going to move. So yeah I think ABS could have helped a little bit.
@LNasty :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3sP0o7R2IQ

Plus the camera guy was saying how it's a blind corner there.

[LNasty]

Originally Posted by ChickenRun

He's already slowing down and beginning to swerve as he approaches, but then clamps the brakes at the last second. I think because he thought the car saw him and wasn't going to move. So yeah I think ABS could have helped a little bit.
@LNasty :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3sP0o7R2IQ

Plus the camera guy was saying how it's a blind corner there.

LMFAO!! In college speech class I did one of my speeches on elderly drivers and their hazard on the roads, was epic. I had video clips and everything

[Xtina]

Totally saveable.

[sLick415]

Originally Posted by LNasty

I know this is going to piss some chicks off on here, but this is why girls shouldn't be allowed behind the wheel! They are worse than elderly people! I would have freaked the f**k out on this chick

That chick was a passenger.

[LNasty]

Originally Posted by sLick415

That chick was a passenger.

Yeah, but she was distracting the driver with her T & A

[CC Cowboy]

I couldn't stop laughing. The car got the worst of it. Ducati riders are such bad riders. They get the bike for the name and then ride like douches.

P.S. If you are going to crash, always aim for the driver's door. With any luck you will take them out.

[choneofakind]

Camry's

No, ABS wouldn't have made a difference. Electronics aid the rider in order to take out variables, they do not create skill to keep people from crashing.

Driver should walk away from this knowing he needs to look better/make more intelligent turns, rider should walk away from this knowing he needs to work on braking/target fixation and remember that he's lucky to be alive, much less unharmed. Both are at fault, but seeing as the camera guys said how blind the turn was and how far the car was into the road before being hit, I blame the rider.

This could have ended much worse. Exhibit A, @Jiggles. (I think that crash did something to his brain ) Both parties should just be happy that no one was injured.

[KawiKid860]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

No, ABS wouldn't have made a difference.

Disagree.

ABS would have kept him from locking his rear, it would have made a difference. He may have still crashed but it would have been less likely.

Electronics aid the rider in order to take out variables, they do not create skill to keep people from crashing.

Yeah... they take out variables to make it less likely that someone will be in an accident.... ABS is there so you can ham fist your brakes like a noob and still stop proficiently. It takes out the variable of possibly locking your brakes, which will almost guarantee you to crash.

Point still stands this was easily avoidable... Especially on a road where this sh*t happens way too often, you'd think people would be more aware.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

ABS would have kept him from locking his rear, it would have made a difference. He may have still crashed but it would have been less likely.

Ever mashed the brake pedal in a car on snow/ice? Notice how when the ABS kicks in, your braking is about half of what it was with skidding wheels?

*note: when ABS has been induced, you can brake faster by easing off the brake enough to stop the ABS intervention, then ease back on to get to the threshold of locking*

The intent of ABS is to keep the wheels spinning so you have the ability to turn while under braking. To do this, it actually makes your brakes less effective by pulsing then on and off rapidly. Remember how we always say that riding is 90% rider and 10% bike? Still counts here. He still would have crashed because on top of not using enough front brake, his rear would have been less effective during ABS intervention.

I'd like to note that on top of all his braking woes, he also steered directly into the path of the moving obstacle and ignored his horn... Since the intent of ABS is to keep you in control to steer clear of an accident, he failed there as well. The outcome would have been the same, ABS or no ABS.

/armchair motorcyclist rant.

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

locking your brakes will almost guarantee you to crash.

Practice on a bicycle and feel the wheels lock. It's not an immediate crash like everyone says. Kid skids, nose wheelies, gravel, etc. Every little kid knows how to do them, idk how people suddenly forget as they get older. I've experienced it on the motorcycle, and I can tell you that the feeling is the same. It's not immediate.

The only way to guarantee a crash is to think that you're going to crash.

[csmith12]

Sucks.... the driver made that car take up as much room as possible on the road.

[Jiggles]

What's wrong with my brain

[Klondike1020]

Totally avoidable . The biker should have swerved and braked . Basically if you are on a motorcycle you should expect this kind of auto driving at all times.


Oh well . Why freak out ... Insurance is for days like that...

Dude says they should cut the bushes down.... If you are out there regular like bring a chain saw ... While your BFF is video taping every squid and cager that rolls around that corner you can do something useful for a change .


That chick has since given up on cages . She likes to ride to ride copilot on dude's ducatis .... that dude is a pavement pimp. He bitch slapped that sedan. His moto pimp hand is strong.

NOTICE - cagers beware - maniac on Ducati is rolling round defacing his four wheeled pavement hogging neighbors one dusty wipe out at a time.

[Klondike1020]

Originally Posted by LNasty

Yeah, but she was distracting the driver with her T & A

That's why all babes should be required to ride on the back of motorcycles . This is the only legitimate solution to T&A distracting the pilots operating terrestrial vehicles !


IT HAS BEEN PROVEN! That when you place the T&A behind the driver and place a limited peripheral vision device(helmet) on the drivers head, all T&A distractions can be averted .......

This is all based on scientific research of course.


This means that that accident would not have happened if the chick was on the back of the bike and the joker driving the car ha been alone thinking of other ways to look stupid ... Like not driving into the middle of a sharp blind corner and stopping like a deer in the headlightS.


Thank you for posting the vid. Makes me feel better about my driving

[KawiKid860]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Ever mashed the brake pedal in a car on snow/ice? Notice how when the ABS kicks in, your braking is about half of what it was with skidding wheels?

Dude.. That's not even applicable here. The rider wasn't on ice. Ice has almost no traction to begin with.... Yes you can brake faster without ABS, but having ABS engage is better than locking your wheels. Otherwise it wouldn't exist lol.

Also agreed on the wheel locking thing, I've locked my front plenty of times during practice braking sessions, both on purpose and not on purpose. It's really not a big deal, it locks and then you let off just enough to get your wheel spinning again. When leaned over is a different thing though. Also my bicycle doesn't have a front brake lol.

I still think he would have crashed, the dude seemed clueless when it came to acting in an emergency situation. ABS would have slowed him better than locked wheel(s) though.

[Toly]

Nope. The dude can't ride for cr@p, ABS or not. Brake hard, then swerve ahead of the car - it's clearly slowing down, so no rocket science there. Also, clear target fixation - you can see him focusing on the bumper, then hitting it.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

Dude.. That's not even applicable here. The rider wasn't on ice. Ice has almost no traction to begin with.... Yes you can brake faster without ABS, but having ABS engage is better than locking your wheels. Otherwise it wouldn't exist lol.

I beg to differ, ice braking is very applicable. Only difference between ice and asphalt from a tire's standpoint is temperature and coefficient of friction. Aka, what you feel on ice is what you'll feel on asphalt, only with lower limits that are much easier to reach. I used ice because everyone knows how it feels to skid on ice, while not everyone brakes hard enough on asphalt to lock their wheels.

Again, the intent of ABS is not to brake quicker, the intent is to sacrifice braking power so you still have grip to turn. Since he had plenty of straight road to brake on, he would have been better to lock the rear and focus on using a proper amount of front brake.

Like I keep saying, rider aiding electronics help the rider, they do not magically give the rider skillz.

[JBizzle]

I liked how easily the front bumper on the Camry flew off

[KawiKid860]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I beg to differ, ice braking is very applicable. Only difference between ice and asphalt from a tire's standpoint is temperature and coefficient of friction. Aka, what you feel on ice is what you'll feel on asphalt, only with lower limits that are much easier to reach. I used ice because everyone knows how it feels to skid on ice, while not everyone brakes hard enough on asphalt to lock their wheels.

Again, the intent of ABS is not to brake quicker, the intent is to sacrifice braking power so you still have grip to turn. Since he had plenty of straight road to brake on, he would have been better to lock the rear and focus on using a proper amount of front brake.

Like I keep saying, rider aiding electronics help the rider, they do not magically give the rider skillz.

I think we're coming to the same conclusion from different viewpoints lol.

I agree with you he would have crashed even with ABS. I'm just saying it can help in situations like this, granted the rider doesn't do what he did.

[quarterliter]

As already stated FRONT BRAKE! The rookie only used the rear from the looks of it. Or better yet turn and avoid the obstacle all together.

[quarterliter]

b-ABS (pronounced Baby-S) would not have saved him. The rear tire can only do so much stopping, and even with it not locking up it would not have been enough. The MSF course says something about 70/30 braking. With 30% coming from the rear. I believe this is an overstatement. The rear tire can leave the ground on a short wheelbase motorcycle with good tires/brakes. Even the ninja can do that. So how much braking force can the tire do if it is off the ground? Morale of the story is the front brake is your friend.

[CycleCam303]

Y'all can argue abs all day. I won't share my opinion too long. But all I see in this video is pitiful riding. The guy should've slowed to a stop or slowed got in the gravel stood on the pegs and roosted the car with gravel. All I see is an average motorcyclists that crashed because he sucks.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Ever mashed the brake pedal in a car on snow/ice? Notice how when the ABS kicks in, your braking is about half of what it was with skidding wheels?

*note: when ABS has been induced, you can brake faster by easing off the brake enough to stop the ABS intervention, then ease back on to get to the threshold of locking*

The intent of ABS is to keep the wheels spinning so you have the ability to turn while under braking. To do this, it actually makes your brakes less effective by pulsing then on and off rapidly.

This isn't all together true. Abs prevents the tire from locking up because highest coefficient if friction occurs right before the tires lock up. Since the tires are still rolling you still have command over direction. Incidentally this command of direction allows the car or bike to remain in the intended direction of travel. The primary purpose of ABS is to stop. A result of the way this mechanism works is the operator can still steer.

Most drivers will stop faster using ABS than without. There are some situations over gravel or bumps that unload the tired that some ABS units will get confused no it will take longer to stop. But on dry or wet pavement that is smooth most drivers are going to stop faster with ABS.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Panda

Most drivers will stop faster using ABS than without.

Yes... but that's not a function of the ABS, that's a function of them not knowing what they're doing in a vehicle. After 5 minutes of coaching on an open parking lot, my driver's ed program was able to get an entire group of 25 learning drivers to stop faster by not engaging their ABS. Some students had been driving less than a month.

You're right on the coefficient of kinetic friction compared to the coefficient of static friction and the maximum point. I took Dynamics too. But what you're not taking into account is that ABS works by pulsing the brakes off. So the maximum braking is directly limited by how long the brakes are cycled on vs how long they're cycled off. With older systems, the on and off cycles were equal length, cutting the braking by half [citation; driver's ed program]. I do not know about newer systems. From what I've experience in Physics classes and Dynamics, the coefficient of kinetic friction was typically only a little smaller, not as significant as 1/3 or 1/2.

I was taught (again, in the best driver's ed in the area) that the primary purpose of ABS was to be able to turn. If a tire is being used at its 100% maximum potential grip to stop like you suggest, just before lockup, then any other changes will cause it to skid. Remember that skids are not direction dependent. Just because you're not locking from braking doesn't mean that you won't skid with steering input. IE, adding any steering input will also cause a skid. It's like the old analogy of comparing available grip to money in your pocket; if you're using all $10 for braking, you have none left to pay for turning. That's why ABS sacrifices so much braking; there has to be significant grip left for turning.

Through driver's ed, I got to experience this on dry pavement, wet pavement, snow, ice, a skid car (those are fun, drive one if you can ) and all this in multiple vehicles. My conclusion? ABS takes away significant braking power. Significant. Therefore, the purpose is not to stop, the purpose is to be able to steer while in an unskilled panic brake where the driver does nothing but mash the pedal.

[csmith12]

Let me offer you up this perspective...

When the rider sees the car, it became a moving target. He didn't steer until it became a stationary target. From all my years driving/riding while dodging deer, dogs and the like, even the best of us hesitate for a moment to see if the object will change direction then steer accordingly. Just like that rider did.

Despite locking the rear... I think he did a fine job NOT plowing directly into the door of the car, or worse... ending up under it.

[choneofakind]

^^ I guess I never thought about it that way.

I woulda just squeezed the heck out of the front brake lever so it seems so foreign that he mashed the rear.

[csmith12]

Well, I still think he could have stopped though. I should have put that in my last post but I forgot. lol

[alex.s]

abs probably would have fixed the stupid mistake he made of locking up the rear tire. but he probably would have still steered his bike straight into a car. **** even after he hit the car, the bike was still fine. he just decided to give up and roll off

[Panda]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

ABS takes away significant braking power. Significant. Therefore, the purpose is not to stop, the purpose is to be able to steer while in an unskilled panic brake where the driver does nothing but mash the pedal.

http://www.promocycle.com/documentat...freinage_a.pdf

Overall, for the tests involving use of both brakes simultaneously, the motorcycle equipped with ABS generated a mean deceleration 12% superior to motorcycles without ABS.

ABS models stop faster than non ABS models in the dry.

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

It was clear from our first set of runs that an ABS-equipped motorcycle with a "failure" would stop as quickly as the non-ABS models (the difference in numbers was insignificant)

Out of six riders, two riders stop in 5 less feet with ABS, four riders stop faster with ABS.

5' for two riders is not what I would describe as a significant loss of braking power.

In the wet however,

The improvements in stopping distances when riders counted on ABS were almost unbelievable group averaged 120-foot shorter stops! Not one of our riders on a non-ABS motorcycle could outstop an ABS machine. None were even close! Riders that had never been on an ABS motorcycle were amazed at the amount of traction available for braking before the ABS needed to take over.

So after I looked up these two links I got bored of looking for more.

I don't agree with the assertion that ABS causes a significant loss of braking power in the dry. Two riders were able to brake in ~3% less distance in dry conditions.

In wet conditions I believe that data shows ABS is clearly superior.

In dry conditions in a panic situation a small minority of riders can stop faster without ABS. Based on the above data, best case you're looking at a 3% decrease in stopping distance.

The majority of riders will be able to stop faster using ABS in dry and wet conditions.

[dwright0723]

Did he let off the brake towards the end? It looks like he was slowing enough to not hit the car, but right before he hit it, he didn't seem to be scrubbing off speed anymore..

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Panda

facts

I may have missed it, but did those studies note if their test subjects knew whether they were riding a bike with or without ABS? I'm thinking placebo effect.

Riders that had never been on an ABS motorcycle were amazed at the amount of traction available for braking before the ABS needed to take over.

This says to me that the study wasn't necessarily unbiased. Whether the bike has ABS or not has nothing to do with the limit of traction available on that surface at that time. Did they then allow the riders to go back to the non-ABS machine after they knew about the extra grip they didn't know about previously? My point being that if they knew how much grip they had in the first place on an ideal surface, they never would have invoked the ABS in the first place, and braking would be the same on each bike, ABS or not.

Overall, we're bickering about something small. You're thinking across the vast majority of riders, I'm thinking in absolutes. Yes, you're right. Most riders, statistically speaking, will stop faster by mashing on the brake and letting ABS do it's job. Is that not what I implied for most drivers as well? (They also mentioned in that first article that you can ride out a front skid, but the input to steer will cause the bike to go down. That still points to turning ability being the reason for ABS, just like with cars)

I will admit your facts are more relevant because they apply to a broader, more unskilled audience (let's face it, we're not all Rossi) in a real world environment full of adrenaline. However, until I see a fair demonstration of the same rider on the same pavement back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back on the same model bike, one ABS one non-ABS, I have a hard time seeing how cutting braking power will yield consistently superior braking distances. All my experiences (in a car) with professional guidance on a closed course tell me otherwise. I'm not exaggerating when I say that we spent 2 hours on a single braking exercise. Every one of us were able to stop faster by avoiding ABS intervention. Same car, same pavement, same day, same temp, same driver, many trials.

[Alex]

Chone - ABS has come a long way. First gen systems had to wait until it sensed that the wheel had locked, which then caused the controller to unlock the wheel, then let it lock again, repeat as needed. You're right, in that this locking and unlocking ultimately led to longer stopping distances than a perfectly applied amount of braking force that didn't completely lock the wheel.

But we are many generations past that, and the wheelspeed sensors / control units can now sense that the wheel is decelerating faster than appropriate, and to let off some brake pressure to bring the wheel deceleration back within normal limits well before the wheel actually gets to lockup. It means that the system is helping the driver keep the brake closer to lockup without actually getting there in many cases. Different motorcycles have different levels of intelligence in their electronic braking systems, but they are all getting better and better with each passing year. We're already at the point in the better systems that a rider is not going to outbrake the computer 8 times out of 10. In a few years it's going to be a clean sweep.

[subxero]

never ridden a bike with ABS but i know the abs in my truck 04 F150 are crap and abs in my old 2010 civic si were deadly. With the civic they would kick on anytime you were braking over the slightest bump or imperfection in the road for no reason what so ever, The ABS scared the **** out of me in that car to the point were i would have to give miles between me and the car in front of me on familiar roads that i knew had bumps. My truck does the same thing but not as bad. I'm sure not all vehicles are this bad but on these two ABS are more of a hazard than a help IMO

[JELY1990]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Y'all can argue abs all day. I won't share my opinion too long. But all I see in this video is pitiful riding. The guy should've slowed to a stop or slowed got in the gravel stood on the pegs and roosted the car with gravel. All I see is an average motorcyclists that crashed because he sucks.

I would have loled so hard if that is what happened in the video.

[quarterliter]

subxero pop the ABS fuse it wont do that anymore......