March 31st, 2015, 10:11 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: William
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Fork oil weight/spring rate
Im going to be servicing the forks soon since my right fork is leaking and getting a generous amount of oil on the wheel/brake caliper and rotor (YIKES). I know the stock oil is 5W, should I upgrade and try 10W?
I will also be replacing the stock springs with either ex500 or custom sonic/race tech and possibly emulators as well. I weigh in at 145 without gear and it calculated that I need a .641. What are your setups and experience with changing oil weights? Thanks |
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March 31st, 2015, 10:54 AM | #2 | |
in your machine
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Quote:
Homework time, http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...the_Suspension
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March 31st, 2015, 11:20 AM | #3 |
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Stock should be pretty close to your weight.
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March 31st, 2015, 12:23 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org member
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I read everything i could on the ninja wiki. I will replace the fork seal and change the oil to 5W. The PO does not even know when the last time the fork oil was changed and i want to say probably never.
Im still thinking about the emulators and wondering if they will be worthwhile at the moment.. |
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March 31st, 2015, 02:59 PM | #5 | |
in your machine
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I personally would increase the fork oil to 15wt.
I run it on my Ninjette, and it seems to work good. I weigh with gear about 225lbs I've also installed and cut EX500 springs, and set the sag dead on. Remember to add and set the oil level properly, as this is one of the most thing that is messed up. As far as emulators go, I don't have them, and if I wanted them I would do the FOG trick as per the EX-500.COM wiki. Quote:
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March 31st, 2015, 03:08 PM | #6 |
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Some more homework for you, if you haven't looked already,
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Front_suspension_upgrades
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March 31st, 2015, 07:17 PM | #7 |
I'm crazy,your excuse is?
Name: Winston
Location: Connecticut
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Try the oil. Worse case you change it. If 10 too stiff try 5w on one side 10 on other.
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March 31st, 2015, 07:20 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
Both sides must match, go with the 15wt Torco T830015CE RFF 15 Racing Fork Fluid Bottle - 1 Liter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000WMO6NS..._nx1gvb1GQTTZH I run 30wt in my ninja 500 even, 15wt is not too thick
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March 31st, 2015, 07:37 PM | #9 |
I'm crazy,your excuse is?
Name: Winston
Location: Connecticut
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no they don't.
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March 31st, 2015, 07:40 PM | #10 |
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March 31st, 2015, 07:47 PM | #11 |
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News to me then, I would think that having the two forks reacting differently would be a problem, like uneven amounts of fork oil? Having the two reacting differently would/might effect the the front wheel geometry, angle, etc......
I'm old, but will to learn..... Mostly, let's see some data gentlemen.
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March 31st, 2015, 07:54 PM | #12 | |
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Name: Winston
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Quote:
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March 31st, 2015, 07:58 PM | #13 |
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@crazymadbastard
I didn't mean to mock you, no disrespect intended, my apologies if I did I'll be back with data , unless @InvisiBill is around to lend a hand.
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March 31st, 2015, 08:02 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
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March 31st, 2015, 08:07 PM | #15 |
in your machine
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Agreed
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March 31st, 2015, 08:13 PM | #16 |
The Corner Whisperer
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I been waiting for this one for a looooong time.
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March 31st, 2015, 08:21 PM | #17 |
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I've mixed fork oil of different weights to achieve a different weight, but never tried different weights in each fork.
Looks like I have some homework to do.
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March 31st, 2015, 08:31 PM | #18 |
in your machine
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Still looking, I've found references for automotive, like racing applications, NASCAR, etc.... But that makes sense to me.
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March 31st, 2015, 08:34 PM | #19 |
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March 31st, 2015, 08:50 PM | #20 |
in your machine
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Still looking, so far no luck, no mention of different weights per fork leg.
http://racetech.com/page/id/30
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March 31st, 2015, 09:22 PM | #21 | |||
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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Quote:
The emulators have holes similar to the stock damper rods which control the flow of the oil, just as the stock setup does. However, it also adds a bypass valve with a spring. When you hit a big bump or something and the forks are trying to quickly compress, that pressure overcomes the spring and allows the oil to flow through quickly (instead of only being able to use the standard small holes). You can change the rate and preload of the spring to alter how the bypass valve behaves. I'm not sure how adding some extra "anti-bottom-out" springs is equivalent to adding more advanced damping control. I'm thinking it's more a case of FOG was bottoming out, and someone told him emulators would fix it. Instead of spending $130 to slightly tweak the suspension performance to fix that one specific problem, he did it with some parts he had sitting around. Sure, that problem might be fixed just as well either way, but I don't see how anyone could consider those two mods to be "the same thing". Quote:
Getting springs to match my weight was the best mod I've done. The Intiminators smoothed things out even more, but the springs were half the cost and more of an improvement. If you go the Intiminator route, they're easier to install since they don't require drilling out the damper rods (but they might work better if you do), so you could even add them in later if you wanted.
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March 31st, 2015, 09:23 PM | #22 |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
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March 31st, 2015, 09:27 PM | #23 |
in your machine
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Hey @InvisiBill what's your take on the different weights for each fork?
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April 1st, 2015, 02:21 AM | #24 |
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Fwiw: stock fork oil is 10W. I dropped to 5W for my Intiminators to render the dampers nearly useless. I'm even sea sting drilling them to be sure about it.
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April 1st, 2015, 03:45 AM | #25 |
Freedom for Germany
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Before talking about the weight of fork oil I would recommend reading this http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/ind...spension_Fluid
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April 1st, 2015, 07:24 AM | #26 | |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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Quote:
It seems like having different oil in the two separate forks which are supposed to work in unison could cause issues, since each side would want to behave slightly differently. It just seems like one side would want to compress faster than the other or something, resulting in the axle not wanting to stay perpendicular. I think that's the sort of thing you were getting at. But if the hard parts provide enough rigidity to keep everything properly aligned, then you might be able to use different oils in each fork and use the slightly different behavior to tweak one for compression and one for rebound or something. But every situation I can think of with my understanding of our simple damper rod forks, you could achieve the same thing by tweaking the flow circuits, which would allow you to run the same oil on both sides and avoid the possibility of imbalances. Perhaps for testing to figure out the best feel before modifying the circuits? P.S. The non-symmetry would eat away at my OCD brain.
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April 1st, 2015, 07:31 AM | #27 |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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So interesting thought on the fork oil discussion, you can put different weight oil in each leg and you can put different spring rates in each leg as well. You have have one leg do all the springing and one leg do all the dampening. You can also split rebound and compression duties on legs as well. The two legs in the broad scheme of things act as one system due to the rigid mounting between the two.
On that note however I was just thinking about the different weight oil setup in the forks and wonder if there may actually be an advantage/disadvantage to doing that verses a blend in both legs. Fixed orifice fluid dampening like in the ninjette is a factor of surface area of the orifices and the viscosity of the fluid in relationship to velocity of the fluid movement. As the fluid velocity doubles the dampening force increases four times, it is a squared relationship. The volume displacement of the fork stroke will be the same for both legs as will the stroke velocity of the fork. So lets assume that A = dampening force of leg 1 and B = dampening force of leg 2. And X = dampening force at fork stroke velocity. So at Y, X = A + B and at 2Y, X = A^2 + B^2 For giggles lets assume that fork oil in A and B are the same and for that fork oil at Y velocity the you get 2 units of force from fluid in each leg. So at Y, you get X=4 and at 2Y, X=8. Now lets assume that fork oil in A at Y provides the result of X=2 and at Y the oil in B X=4. So at Y, X=2+4=6 and 2Y, X=2*2+4*4=20 Now lets assume that you mix A and B oil so you get C and its halfway between so at Y, C oil provides X=3 from each leg now at Y, X=3+3=6 and 2Y, X=3*3+3*3=18 So actually after InvisiBill pointed my error, there is a difference at high speed displacement dampening from going with a different weight in each leg vs a mix. In this case a 10% increase at double the stroke velocity. And I think I also better point out that the difference in high velocity dampening will diverge even greater the more different the viscosity is between the two fluids. When one had twice the resistance we got a 10% increase in dampening vs mixing. If you went four times, the difference at 2Y would be nearly 27%. At Y X=2+8=10, at 2Y X=2^2+8^2=68; mixed at Y X=5+5=10; 2Y X=5^2+5^2=50.
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April 1st, 2015, 07:33 AM | #28 |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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Should be no compression issues as the fluid is "in-compressible". It is about volume movement and velocity. They work together as a summation of forces. Same with springs. The forks are the same so chamber volumes change at the same rate and we assume fluid level is the same so volume change is the same.
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April 1st, 2015, 09:34 AM | #29 | ||
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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Quote:
You might want to double-check your math on 2² + 4² = 18. Quote:
To make an exaggerated example, take the front wheel off your bike and flip it upside down. Now compress the forks by hitting the middle of the axle with a big hammer. The force should be evenly distributed to both forks. Now repeat this, but hit the end of one side's fork leg instead of the middle of the axle. Both forks are "solidly" connected via the axle, but I'm guessing they wouldn't compress exactly evenly, due to real-world imperfections vs. a perfect theoretical world. Again, I'm no expert, I'm just trying to logic my way through this. Even if you can use different oil weights, I'm having a hard time figuring out any reason you'd want to. For everything I can think of, it seems like you're making two incorrect settings that average out to the correct setting, when you could just set both of them to the correct setting in the first place.
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April 1st, 2015, 09:56 AM | #30 |
ninjette.org member
Name: William
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Interesting. So the ricor intimidator would not need modification to the damping rod but some people have drilled it out anyway? I believe cuong drilled it out to 10mm. And does this modification apply to the existing holes or are there additional holes that are drilled like shown in the emulator DIY?
I think I will stick with 5w and get the appropriate spring. I'm not sure if I should get a custom set at .641 or just stick the ex500 and space it out appropriately. |
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April 1st, 2015, 10:28 AM | #31 | |
I'm crazy,your excuse is?
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Quote:
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April 1st, 2015, 10:53 AM | #32 | |
in your machine
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If you want to increase the rate, you need to cut them to the appropriate length for your new spring rate. To calculate new spring rate = (original spring length / modified spring length) * original spring rate So if your getting a set off a 2nd Gen EX (94 & up) the spring is 17" About and cut 2" off your new rate will about .66, then just get some pvc pipe and make new spacers. SIDENOTE: 1st Gen EX500 (pre 94') use a much longer spring about 20.5" same rate, this gives you more spring to experiment with. A quick way to figure overall length is the measure the original spring, and spacer total length , this will get you in the ballpark of the OEM setting. You should cut the new spacers a little bit longer 1" or so you can then trim the down to set the sag. If you mess up, no worries hopefully you got the 10' pvc pipe, plenty of room to experiment with. If you want them stiffer, just cut more off the spring, and new spacers. It's easy to do, as I've done the spring modification to both my EX, and Ninjette(EX springs) and I'm happy with the results and saving some cash as well.
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April 1st, 2015, 10:56 AM | #33 | ||
EX500 full of EX250 parts
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Quote:
They work great for me and chone without touching the damper rods (yet). If you want to be 100% sure the stock parts aren't doing anything unexpected, drill them out. The idea is to remove the restriction (how damper rods work to control the suspension) by drilling bigger/more holes. Quote:
Note that spacers/preload can never make up for a spring of the wrong rate. Preload can take some of the squishy feeling out of a soft spring, but it does so by pre-compressing it toward the bottom ahead of time (pre... loading...) so that it doesn't travel as far in use. The same force on a spring will always compress it down to the same length, determined by the spring's rate, regardless of how much initial preload is on it.
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April 1st, 2015, 11:38 AM | #34 | |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
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OK yeah, that is what I get for typing and posting and thinking all at the same time without double checking on a smartphone lol. Obviously 4+16 is 20 not 18. Apologies. Also after re-reading your correct on the Xs, let me fix one of those to a Y. How do you superscript the 2 on here?
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April 1st, 2015, 11:50 AM | #35 | |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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April 1st, 2015, 11:59 AM | #36 | |
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Quote:
I do not currently have them. A few sellers on ebay have a fork set for sale for 1/2 the price of the springs alone (new, couldnt find used fork springs by themselves). the only problem is i havent ogtten any information back on them to see if the fork sets have the springs as well. its about 30-50 dollars for a used fork set from ebay. My initital plan is to just drop in the ex500 spring. depending on what year i get i will have to cut the spacer correctly to size.. I havent taken apart the forks yet so i do not know of where all of the components sit just yet. I only can reference back to diagrams and such online. So will the ex500 be a drop in? From my understanding i should take the original spring and spacer total length, then measure the ex500 spring and make a spacer appropriately so that the ex500 spring and new spacer come out to the same total length of the stock spring and spacer, correct? |
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April 1st, 2015, 12:15 PM | #37 | |
Fighting Texas Aggie '05
Name: Neil
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Quote:
The problem with that is basically that is like the opposite of what you want lol, I mean the you want less dampening at really large displacements so that the suspension can track the surface of the road without jolting you hard and upsetting the chassis and you want higher dampening at the lower displacement speeds to control wallowing and sponginess. So it would be no benefit at all so you wouldn't want to do it lol.
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April 1st, 2015, 01:54 PM | #38 | |||
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
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Quote:
As for damaged parts, I'm not sure how much force it would take to somehow damage the springs - it seems like even with a pretty severe fork bend, the springs should just "spring" and bend along with it. I'm sure it's possible to wreck bad enough to damage the springs too, but forks with minor damage should be ok, I would think. After you steal the springs, you might be able to sell some of the remaining components too. Lowers get damaged, people might want undrilled damper rods if they're taking out emulators and putting a bike back to stock, etc. Quote:
Quote:
As for the spacer, that's generally correct, but not precisely. The overall length of the new spring & spacer should be pretty close to the overall length of the old spring & spacer. However, the length of the spacer determines how much preload is placed on the spring, which determines the sag. A different spring rate will inherently require a different length spacer to result in the same amount of sag. There's a 250 FAQ/Wiki somewhere that says the length of the new parts must be exactly equal to the length of the old parts. I just wanted to point out that this is an oversimplification, and spacer length will vary a little.
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April 1st, 2015, 02:25 PM | #39 |
ninjette.org member
Name: William
Location: Houston
Join Date: Feb 2015 Motorcycle(s): Ninja EX250F Posts: 110
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the item i am looking at is in good working condition. the only thing tahts wrong with them is the upper fork seals.. all can be had for $20 plus $20 shipping which is a great price...
Spring change doesnt sound too complicated at all then.. although i do have a leaky fork seal that will need to be replaced. I ran by some preload adjusters that sit on top of the fork. would this be a worth while addition to the front suspension and help me to fine tune the preload? I will be running woodcraft lowered risers in a few weeks as well so the preload adjusters will be accessible. |
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April 1st, 2015, 02:44 PM | #40 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 25
MOTM - Jun '17, May '16, Mar '15
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The PreGen Ninjette and 1st Gen EX springs are a direct replacement, with the exception of the overall length, below it a picture of when I did mine, showing the difference at OEM lengths, with the EX springs being longer, also not the springs themselves are slightly diameter material. I had a replacement set of forks for the EX laying around anyway.
As far as the adjustable preloads go, you could, but to be honest once they're set, you shouldn't need to be adjusting them again. They would add some flash to the top of the tubes, since your going with clip-ons anyway. I personally just went ZX600C risers to lower mine. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/blog.php?b=8344
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