ABS or no? What would you choose?

[ally99]

I know there are other ABS threads here, but I'm interested more in riders' opinions on ABS vs traditional brakes. If all things were equal and you could choose a bike with ABS or one without, which would you choose and why?

I'm picking up my new bike next week. It'll be the first one I've ever had with ABS. I'm less than thrilled as I like knowing exactly where I'm going to stop when hard braking, but obviously ABS is claimed to be safer since it prevents one from locking up the brakes.

[ally99]

I just thought of a dumb question.

The Ninja 300s with ABS, do they have ABS on both the front and the rear brakes? Yes, right?

[allanoue]

It was like five or six hundred dollars more for the ABS when I got mine. I did not think it was worth the extra money and have to get a color I did not want. I may have gotten it if came in white

I think it would be good insurance.

[dcj13]

ABS is great on cars and bikes for street riding!

As a vehicle bottom feeder, however, there are few absolutes. If the bike is in really good condition, well cared for, suitably priced, and I want the bike, I'll buy it, ABS or no ABS.

BMW first offered ABS on its '84 K100. My next door neighbor's K75 had ABS and I took the opportunity to intentionally invoke it on a wet street: it worked as advertised. My K75 does not have ABS. It would be nice if it did, but, hey, no big deal to me.

A couple of things to think about when considering ABS on a bike:
1) It adds weight. If the brakes aren't linked, there's gotta be two reservoir/modulator thingies. Plus the electronic brain box. Plus the additional wiring and plumbing. And the hall effect sensors. and the star wheels.

2) It adds complexity. Every time you pull a wheel or adjust the chain, there's a good chance you'll have to adjust the position of the hall effect sensor(s). Otherwise, you'll have the dreaded ABS malfunction red light on the dashboard. And the bi-annual brake fluid replacement/bleeding is more of a chore. And because of the complexity, there's opportunity for failure and the difficulties associated with troubleshooting. ABS parts aren't cheap or plentiful.

The ABS one doesn't have is the ABS that will never fail or require maintenance. But if it comes with my next bike, great!

[Tigerpaw]

If the prices is the same, get it.

Can always be disabled/removed if desired on the track.

Resale value will be better.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by Tigerpaw

If the prices is the same, get it.

Can always be disabled/removed if desired on the track.

Resale value will be better.

Agree 100%! I like vehicles with poor resale value.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ally99

The Ninja 300s with ABS, do they have ABS on both the front and the rear brakes? Yes, right?

Yes, there is an ABS circuit for both the front and rear brakes.

[cadd]

I would go with abs just for the peace of mind. I never had abs in any of my 4 previous bikes. The 300 was my first abs experience.

I felt it kick in 2 or 3 times (rear wheel only in the wet). All low speed when I had to hit the brakes harder than I like due to a car cutting in front while approaching a red light.

Normally, if I had no abs, I'd just ride out the skid until I come to a full stop as I was only going no more than 20mph when it kicked in. But with abs, I just allowed it to do its job.

Is it a lifesaver? That depends on your riding style. For me, since I'm pretty conservative and always leave a lot of room for braking, I almost never have to use it. But it's nice knowing it's there.

[cbinker]

i chose no, because it artificially inflates the price, even though my BMW has it, but that is pretty much standard on those bikes.

[Hero Danny]

I looked at a cbr600rr today, was about to put a down payment on it, then found out it wasn't abs (even though they said it was on the website) and I walked away... it broke my heart to walk away too, since the bike had so much sex appeal. Oh well, I'd rather wait and spend more money on a bike with ABS, if it saves your life just one time, then it's worth the price a thousand fold....

[cbinker]

I have been riding 9 years and no abs, learned how to use the brakes to full potential, both front and rear. ABS is more of a benefit to new riders that will ham fist the brakes.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by cbinker

i chose no, because it artificially inflates the price, even though my BMW has it, but that is pretty much standard on those bikes.

Exactly why I threw in the "all things equal" clause. The used SE bike with ABS was going to cost less than the new one without. I got a damn good deal at $4100 including the $300 taxes, a $200 service, and $80 of free labor to replace the tires. I prefer a non-ABS bike, all things equal, but in this case, the ABS was cheaper than non.

[Finesse]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

it broke my heart to walk away too, since the bike had so much sex appeal.

whatever sex appeal you thought you were about to get from a cbr600rr just disappeared the minute you said that walking away from a bike broke your heart

just saying



no ABS for me. need to be able to work on the bike without the enormous hassle of ABS upsets

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by Finesse

no ABS for me. need to be able to work on the bike without the enormous hassle of ABS upsets

Good perspective from someone who deals with bikes for a living!

So you regularly see ABS problems on bikes? Do tell!

[Finesse]

No, because a lot of the bikes with ABS are new and people with new bikes tend to take them back to the dealership they got them from

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I looked at a cbr600rr today, was about to put a down payment on it, then found out it wasn't abs (even though they said it was on the website) and I walked away... it broke my heart to walk away too, since the bike had so much sex appeal. Oh well, I'd rather wait and spend more money on a bike with ABS, if it saves your life just one time, then it's worth the price a thousand fold....

Supersports and superbikes don't have abs for a reason, traction control is the one that'll save your life with these and gl finding a brand new 636 that you can afford (only supersport w/traction control at the moment)

ABS really gets in your way unless you do a lot of riding in rain, snow, or ice and even then I ride around the environment enough to where I've never kicked in the front abs. I also don't use the front brake in the snow or icy conditions because that's dumb, it's easier to control sudden loss of traction in the rear tire on braking than the front in icy conditions.


I got a bike with abs to appease my family, I appreciate that it makes my family think that I'm on a safer machine and consider their stress relief to be worth the money

[Finesse]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I appreciate that it makes my family think that I'm on a safer machine and consider their stress relief to be worth the money

this is an excellent example of doing what you want but keeping in mind how others feel about it...

my family has no idea that motorcycles can have ABS, though, so I'm off the hook!

[Somchai]

ABS is 70% 'brainwashed' marketing and 30% safety-related reason - it is a feature for non-skilled drivers/rider, who are not able to use the brakes how it should be done.
Every skilled driver/rider can and will renounce them and especially in racings they are not used. Did those who want or need it ever ask why?

[Sirref]

Mine knows about traction control now...

I'm off the hook on that one because I explained that it's only on superbike models that have "borderline insane top speeds that they don't want me having the capability to do on public roads"

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by Alex

Yes, there is an ABS circuit for both the front and rear brakes.

Please step away from the computer... Shouldn't you be Layin in the sun with a coconut or something?

[JohnnyBravo]

I could have used it once... But I didn't crazy or nothing sooooo I wouldn't go out of my way to get it; but I wouldn't take it off if it came on it

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by Finesse

whatever sex appeal you thought you were about to get from a cbr600rr just disappeared the minute you said that walking away from a bike broke your heart

just saying



no ABS for me. need to be able to work on the bike without the enormous hassle of ABS upsets

The bike had sex appeal, I loved the way it looked, I sat on her and rocked her back and forth and she felt nice and light (even lighter than my 300) Pretty much perfect in every way, my eyes were glued to only that bike for the most part at the dealer. I was just expecting ABS and was lied to, and they wouldn't go down on the price despite the mess up on their part. I can love a bike and still walk away from it, my brain steps in and is the voice of reason.


Working on ABS isn't so bad, I mean, yeah is sucks... but I did all my brakes in both my cars, calipers, new brake lines, rotors, pads, pretty much the whole 9 yards and they had ABS. Sure, it's a big pain, but for the extra headache it's well worth knowing that it could save your life.... my car's ABS saved me from an accident ONE time and that's all it took. One time for me to realize just how valuable it truly is.

Originally Posted by Sirref

Supersports and superbikes don't have abs for a reason, traction control is the one that'll save your life with these and gl finding a brand new 636 that you can afford (only supersport w/traction control at the moment)

ABS really gets in your way unless you do a lot of riding in rain, snow, or ice and even then I ride around the environment enough to where I've never kicked in the front abs. I also don't use the front brake in the snow or icy conditions because that's dumb, it's easier to control sudden loss of traction in the rear tire on braking than the front in icy conditions.

Gets in the way? I mean, I don't track my bikes... and when I do decide to go to the track i'm going to buy a newgen 250 and use that exclusively.

I've only locked my 300's brakes once and it was scary but not too terrible. My philosophy is this... if ABS saves my butt even just ONE time, then it's already paid for its self 1,000 fold.

Again, ABS wasn't the only reason I walked away, the main reason was I was lied to and even when I asked them to lower the price they refused (even though I was only asking $500) I knew it was time to just keep looking.... you can't buy the first bike you see just because you love it. haha

I'm looking at another dealer tomorrow who has an 09 non abs model as well (a little cheaper than the 2010), I'm not gonna buy, just looking. I was planning on just laying one away for about $1,000. Since i'm making much more money at my job now I could probably get the money together in just a month or two.

[thisisbenji]

Defeat-able ABS is the best IMO.

ABS for the street is a no brainer, you never know when some jackass is going to cut you off. You might just grab a handful of brake thinking you have traction. Come to find out your front tire was on an oil spill!

I'd prefer to not have ABS off road or on the track though, that's why I would never buy a bike with ABS that could not be turned off.

[Sirref]

You're entitled to your own opinion on this one hero, I won't try to persuade you to mine.

ABS gets in the way in track settings because it kicks in before the absolute maximum of braking power is used. Think of it like this, there are 3 points.

Point 1 is too much, tire locks up and stopping distance is lengthened considerably (plus you can tip the front and just go down if you lock the front)

Point 3 is where abs kicks in, manufacturers add a safety net for this though bike manufacturers are better about getting it close to the maximum when they include abs on their models.

Point 2 is the magical limit that's in between the other two points. Where you don't have abs to stop you from approaching the limit and yet you don't go over the limit either, this is the true maximum stopping power of the machine.

[thisisbenji]

Originally Posted by Somchai

ABS is 70% 'brainwashed' marketing and 30% safety-related reason - it is a feature for non-skilled drivers/rider, who are not able to use the brakes how it should be done.
Every skilled driver/rider can and will renounce them and especially in racings they are not used. Did those who want or need it ever ask why?

Idk man... I'd like to think I'm great at braking. I'v spent many years practicing in the dirt and now on on the street. Still, for general street riding, I would love to have ABS. One less thing to think about when someone turns left in front of you at an intersection.

Racing is a completely different story, eff ABS in that situation.

[flitecontrol]

I've been riding for over six years, and frequently practice quick stops. Thought I was pretty good, but the other day, I was adjusting the cuff on my gloves to stop a draft and looked up to see the pickup in front of me stopped to talk to someone in a car in the other lane (two lane road). It was my fault for not looking to see this situation develop, and letting the following distance get too short.

Applied the front and rear brakes as hard as I thought I should and wound up locking the rear. Soon realized there wasn't enough room to stop and wound up splitting the lane between the two vehicles. With ABS, there may have been enough room to stop, so yes, I would choose ABS. In a panic situation, it prevents the rider from locking up either brake yet allows near maximum braking effort.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by thisisbenji

Idk man... I'd like to think I'm great at braking. I'v spent many years practicing in the dirt and now on on the street

Humility is super important with motorsports. No matter how much you can back it up, and no matter how great you truly are, thinking you're great is what gets you killed or vegetableized.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

I've been riding for over six years, and frequently practice quick stops. Thought I was pretty good, but the other day, I was adjusting the cuff on my gloves to stop a draft and looked up to see the pickup in front of me stopped to talk to someone in a car in the other lane (two lane road). It was my fault for not looking to see this situation develop, and letting the following distance get too short.

Applied the front and rear brakes as hard as I thought I should and wound up locking the rear. Soon realized there wasn't enough room to stop and wound up splitting the lane between the two vehicles. With ABS, there may have been enough room to stop, so yes, I would choose ABS. In a panic situation, it prevents the rider from locking up either brake yet allows near maximum braking effort.

So what you're saying is you don't know the limits of your front brake?

I don't either. Not many of us do. I suck at braking. It's the biggest thing that induces the red mist and the SR for me. I can trail brake decently, but if I were better at outright late braking power and carrying speed, I wouldn't need to continue dropping speed into the corners.

ABS wouldn't have helped you in terms of braking distance there. The back wheel does so little for you. It would have helped in terms of making sure your back end never stepped out of line. Use way way more front than you think is possible. As long as you progressively load (not grab) you can use tons of front brake before a) endo or b) locked front. I've only ever chirped the rear due to lifting it a couple times. One was at the track under huge braking, one was on the street when I grabbed the brake and lifted the rear prematurely. Rate of lever pull matters.

[ally99]

Rear brake does little to help you in a hard braking scenario because the rear tire lifts off the ground once max front brake is applied. The rear, however, does up your risk of locking up a brake and sliding.

I love my rear brake, and there are endless debates about it, but in panic stops, I avoid it. To me, the risk of using it isn't worth the slight benefits of using it perfectly.

[allanoue]

Would rear only abs make sense?

[Hero Danny]

I think the general consensus is this:

ABS for street = YES
ABS for track = NO

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

So what you're saying is you don't know the limits of your front brake? Yeah, I've never locked that one up, and don't plan to , but I think I'm using most of its potential due to practice.

I don't either. Not many of us do. I suck at braking. It's the biggest thing that induces the red mist and the SR for me. I can trail brake decently, but if I were better at outright late braking power and carrying speed, I wouldn't need to continue dropping speed into the corners.

ABS wouldn't have helped you in terms of braking distance there. The back wheel does so little for you. It would have helped in terms of making sure your back end never stepped out of line. Use way way more front than you think is possible. As long as you progressively load (not grab) you can use tons of front brake before a) endo or b) locked front. I've only ever chirped the rear due to lifting it a couple times. One was at the track under huge braking, one was on the street when I grabbed the brake and lifted the rear prematurely. Rate of lever pull matters.

BTW, I was on one of my Honda Rebels. I know the back wheel provides a lot less braking than the front, but it's a misconception to think that it's useless. When you need to stop now, you want all the braking power available. While ABS doesn't provide the absolute maximum braking available, it comes very close, and in a panic situation such as mine, would have prevented the sliding of the rear brake and allowed me to find just how much front brake can be applied before the ABS kicks in. On dry pavement and especially on wet, I'd bet there aren't many riders who can out stop a similar model bike equipped with ABS. I've seen videos of it being done, but the extremely skilled rider without ABS only stopped a few feet shorter than the ABS equipped bike.

[jkv45]

ABS is an equalizer - a safety net.

An experienced rider, in controlled and predictable conditions, can stop in a shorter distance without ABS. When traction is reduced or unpredictable, things change.

In unpredictable situations, the rider has to be able to modulate braking pressure to avoid lock-up. If you can't do that you will either lock the wheel or apply less braking than optimum. That's tricky, and takes experience and practice. Even then, there's no guarantee you won't step over the line.

That's where ABS steps in. It does the modulation to keep the braking at the maximum for the traction available. It will save you. Just mash the brake (or both brakes) and you will get as close to the best braking available for every situation. That's hard to beat, and most of us can't come anywhere near that.

For those of us that don't have ABS, I have a suggestion - focus all of your concentration on the single most important thing that is going to stop you in a hurry - modulating the front brake. In perfect conditions (or during practice), you may be able to get slightly shorter stopping distances using both brakes, BUT, when you are under stress and surprised - like in an emergency stopping situation - you do not have the same abilities. If you are using your rear brake consistently for stopping, when the situation arises where you need to stop immediately there's a good chance you are not going to modulate it - just stomp on it. That will lock it, and may cause the rear to step out of line, but it also is a distraction. It diverts some of your concentration from modulating the front brake, at the time when the front brake is the single biggest contributor to reducing your stopping distance.

The rear brake's effectiveness also changes with speed. At low speeds it's pretty effective, but as speeds increase or braking gets more intense its effectiveness is reduced. So when you need it the most it's least effective.

[choneofakind]

Lee, read Jay's post. You are correct. The back brake does something. But it's tiny, something like 4 feet of difference from 60 mph under ideal, perfect conditions. I cannot argue that it does SOMETHING.

However, in a panic, you should focus your efforts on the single most important thing; the front brake, as it has the most effect on your total braking power.


Maybe this means stomping the rear brake and praying the ABS works, then it's one less thing to worry about. It's like a decision matrix. The most heavily weighted category has the largest effect on your decision. Since the front brake has the most effect, make the front braking perfect

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Supersports and superbikes don't have abs for a reason, traction control is the one that'll save your life with these and gl finding a brand new 636 that you can afford (only supersport w/traction control at the moment)

ABS really gets in your way unless you do a lot of riding in rain, snow, or ice and even then I ride around the environment enough to where I've never kicked in the front abs. I also don't use the front brake in the snow or icy conditions because that's dumb, it's easier to control sudden loss of traction in the rear tire on braking than the front in icy conditions.


I got a bike with abs to appease my family, I appreciate that it makes my family think that I'm on a safer machine and consider their stress relief to be worth the money

unfortunately, i would have to disagree with you on this, brakes are the most dangerous part of a SS bike, if I mashed the brakes on the ZX6R(which many new riders can and will do), I would be sliding face down getting ass raped by the bike.

I have played with the BMW, and it is kinda fun to mash the brakes at 50mph and feel the ABS kick in, just to get the feeling of how it works.

The problem I see with ABS, is it can just as likely fail as it can save your ass. So developing the skill of braking without it is more important in my opinion.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by cbinker

unfortunately, i would have to disagree with you on this, brakes are the most dangerous part of a SS bike, if I mashed the brakes on the ZX6R(which many new riders can and will do), I would be sliding face down getting ass raped by the bike.

I have played with the BMW, and it is kinda fun to mash the brakes at 50mph and feel the ABS kick in, just to get the feeling of how it works.

The problem I see with ABS, is it can just as likely fail as it can save your ass. So developing the skill of braking without it is more important in my opinion.

This is a good point, I view supersports as track machines more than street machine. Abs isn't ideal for track use but a newbie on a supersport can get wrecked by not being able to use their brakes properly. I sometimes forget that people get these bikes as their first bikes

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by Sirref

This is a good point, I view supersports as track machines more than street machine. Abs isn't ideal for track use but a newbie on a supersport can get wrecked by not being able to use their brakes properly. I sometimes forget that people get these bikes as their first bikes

Yep, many of those newbies live in the flat lands.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

BTW, I was on one of my Honda Rebels. I know the back wheel provides a lot less braking than the front, but it's a misconception to think that it's useless. When you need to stop now, you want all the braking power available. While ABS doesn't provide the absolute maximum braking available, it comes very close, and in a panic situation such as mine, would have prevented the sliding of the rear brake and allowed me to find just how much front brake can be applied before the ABS kicks in. On dry pavement and especially on wet, I'd bet there aren't many riders who can out stop a similar model bike equipped with ABS. I've seen videos of it being done, but the extremely skilled rider without ABS only stopped a few feet shorter than the ABS equipped bike.

I don't think any experience rider would say the rear does "nothing", however, it's about weighing the minuscule effects of using it with the increase risk of locking it up under panic. If you use it to panic stop, it's only effective the first few microseconds before you are on the front so hard that the rear tire lifts off the ground.
To me, a lover of my rear brake, the risks outweigh the benefits gained from using it in hard braking situations, so I choose not to.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Humility is super important with motorsports.

I still suck at braking, with or without abs. In my experiences so far, Ben is right though, on a street abs setup. I hit the abs limit before hitting "my" limit. Not cool! Because I set my braking marker thinking I could scrub off more speed in a shorter distance and nearly ended up in the runoff. Manufacture buffer or me having no clue how to really use abs on the track? On the bright side... I learned I could take that corner a bit faster.

[backinthesaddleagain]

I had abs on my cbr600 and now on my 636. Definitely helps on the street when you hit the unexpected sand or wet. While might not be best for the track it has not hindered me and my mere mortal skills.