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Old November 7th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
1.2mm or 12mm? Either way sounds eccessive. As does 3mm at the valves.

1,2mm Bruce...I messed up when converting to inches... that is 0,05"...
when you say excessive, you mean unecessarily too much ?
my intention is to keep compression below 13:1 and to be able to adjust lobe centers any way I want...that 3mm is on TDC without cams on... will see how much it really is when cam timing is done...
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Old November 10th, 2014, 09:06 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
1,2mm Bruce...I messed up when converting to inches... that is 0,05"...
when you say excessive, you mean unecessarily too much ?
my intention is to keep compression below 13:1 and to be able to adjust lobe centers any way I want...that 3mm is on TDC without cams on... will see how much it really is when cam timing is done...
If your refering to deck height as "squish" then yes that shoiuld be around 1mm maybe a little tighter.
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Old November 11th, 2014, 05:50 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
If your refering to deck height as "squish" then yes that shoiuld be around 1mm maybe a little tighter.
well I know that some 600 bring that up to 0,7-0,6mm for high comp but I prefer to leave it that much - for now...besides my reciprocating weight is a bit on the heavy side for those factory rod bolts and my cams' profile quite wilder than stock ones... I can sacrifice a couple of ponies to help it operate a bit cooler and with less stress...if I change my mind, I will swap base gasket with a thinner one...
had to order special shims and that is holding me back at the moment but I believe it will be on the bike by the end of the week...
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Old November 11th, 2014, 04:54 PM   #84
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well I know that some 600 bring that up to 0,7-0,6mm for high comp but I prefer to leave it that much - for now...besides my reciprocating weight is a bit on the heavy side for those factory rod bolts and my cams' profile quite wilder than stock ones... I can sacrifice a couple of ponies to help it operate a bit cooler and with less stress...if I change my mind, I will sawp base gasket with a thinner one...
had to order special shims and that is holding me back at the moment but I believe it will be on the bike by the end of the week...
Ok. Who made the base gasket? I have 5 of them stacked up to make mine work.
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Old November 11th, 2014, 10:37 PM   #85
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Ok. Who made the base gasket? I have 5 of them stacked up to make mine work.
there were 2 of them included with the kit of 0,2mm each but instead I had a custom aluminum one made (from a local car gasket maker) that is 1mm thick, because the kit is made for the 250's shorter stroke and they simply are not thick enough for the amount of clearance I had in mind...but I believe your choice is just as good...the way I see it (given that you also now have 1mm of gaskets under your block) the difference between our two engines is the thickness of the head gasket... stock 250 is 0,2mm if I am not mistaken, 300's stock triple is 0,40mm (middle "leaf" is 0,1mm, outer ones 0,15mm) and the kit's triple is 1,1 as it comes but pressed will be about 0,85mm, so there comes my extra deck clearence...
it seems odd to me though that you didn't order a custom one yourself... there are some good gasket makers over there, I believe... or is it too expensive to make just one piece ?
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Old November 17th, 2014, 08:18 AM   #86
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Nick, take a look what I found for you...



Link: http://parts-for-bikes.de/shop/einze...baab6c028.html

I know you don't like to hear about the ECU but I know from a guy in Germany with a K8 750 Gixxer who is using those (but open w/o net) and remapped his ECU what gave him around 11% more hp (from 138 stock-hp to 153 hp actual), so don't forget about the ECU...
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Old November 17th, 2014, 04:23 PM   #87
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Nick, take a look what I found for you...



Link: http://parts-for-bikes.de/shop/einze...baab6c028.html

I know you don't like to hear about the ECU but I know from a guy in Germany with a K8 750 Gixxer who is using those (but open w/o net) and remapped his ECU what gave him around 11% more hp (from 138 stock-hp to 153 hp actual), so don't forget about the ECU...
Roland you are so full of pleasant surprises !! Thank you for the gift (it is my birthday today after all and still working on the bike...)

Well I wasn't going to use any filter anyway... but no net...ok, dust is not any serious issue maybe, but what about debris going to the engine ??

Seems to me you are in favor of the "no airbox" option as well...
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Old November 17th, 2014, 05:50 PM   #88
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Roland you are so full of pleasant surprises !! Thank you for the gift (it is my birthday today after all and still working on the bike...)

Well I wasn't going to use any filter anyway... but no net...ok, dust is not any serious issue maybe, but what about debris going to the engine ??

Seems to me you are in favor of the "no airbox" option as well...
Hi Nick,
also when I'm one day to late



I wish you all the best, stay healthy and have good luck.

No, I'm not in favor of "no airbox" but in your case it would be good to test different velocity stacks for the best success.
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Old November 17th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #89
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those DNA filters seems quite good as it is used in the Ninja Cup bikes we have here.
It's like the K&N pods but with shield and also filter for the engine breather. It looks like it have the velocity improved but i can only see it from the outside.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 09:35 AM   #90
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those DNA filters seems quite good as it is used in the Ninja Cup bikes we have here.
It's like the K&N pods but with shield and also filter for the engine breather. It looks like it have the velocity improved but i can only see it from the outside.
Red the DNA stage 2 filterkit is probably the best in the market for the 250... but it is made for the 250's TBs and quite expensive... it will definetely need modification to fit to the 300's TBs that might ruin the whole functionality of the kit... I have no time at the moment so I have not been working on the bike but will soon complete it... when it comes to finalising mounting stuff, I will try evrthing that comes with breathing... several kinds of velocity stacks along with my modded airbox, filterpods etc and see what performs best...
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Old November 21st, 2014, 12:39 AM   #91
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ah..you're correct on this.i just realized it as i was trying to borrow the 2013 250 TB from a buddy and find it is VERY different. the bores were bigger about 1mm larger on the latest one and it is exactly like the 300, but with 32mm.
and yes, those DNA airbox is damn expensive.
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Old November 25th, 2014, 06:17 PM   #92
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a little update...
today I finished with certain details that needed to be done before placing the engine on the bike...
firstly, this is how I shaped the inner side of the 250 side cover to fit on the 300's slipper clutch and leaving it to rotate freely...

[/URL]

and this is how I tapped the "kleen" system...closest possible to the exhaust port for optimum throttle response...

[/URL]

I made and fit a couple of headless bolts...

[/URL]

starter, mechanical tensioner and clutch cover in place...

[[/URL]

camshafts' timing 102/105 for intake and exhaust respectively measured with cam chain tensioner in place, top cover on and ready to put on bike by tomorrow hopefully...

[/URL]
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Old November 26th, 2014, 09:59 AM   #93
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at last engine is in place...

[/URL]

you can also see the pieces that will make my exhaust system... once I put it together and fit it on the bike it will all be a matter of details before I start it up for the first time...
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Old November 27th, 2014, 09:48 AM   #94
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at last exhaust system all welded and fitted...
I know it looks kinda weird but a couple of guys who make custom exhaust systems gave me good reviews on a theory basis, given the way I want it to perform... end can is carbon and taken off a '92 ZZR-1100 full "Laser" racing exhaust system...

[/URL]

[/URL]

next is working on wiring and placing TBs, radiator and hoses... hope to start it up by end of next week...
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Old December 3rd, 2014, 08:49 AM   #95
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a little updating...
radiator and hoses in place, wiring connected, I finally managed to get it started up and idling smoothly !! I am very happy and anxious to ride it at last...first thing I noticed is sound is more deeptone than before...
still have to find a way to fit properly some sensors since housing or location on 300 engine is different to 250's so I still have a little modding to do, especially with the speed sensor and the oil pressure sensor...
measured base CR to be quite high...13,55:1
it was not what I originally intended but it is ok, since squish and valve to piston clearances are ample...
next update will be a video of it idling and revving a bit...
(I hate breaking-in periods but I have to be gentle with it while I work on the AFR map...)
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Old December 17th, 2014, 07:51 AM   #96
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Any progress Nick?
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Old December 20th, 2014, 07:13 PM   #97
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Any progress Nick?
I am very sorry for not updating but I have quit finishing up the bike at the moment, even if so close, because my father passed away a few days back and I believe you all realize I am not exactly at my best...I barely even get online...
I need to take care of my mother, who is totally devastated by our loss and some other important family issues... I hope to be back with progress some time after the holidays...
I wish Merry Christmas and a happy new year to each and every one of you and your families...
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Old December 21st, 2014, 06:08 AM   #98
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I'm sorry for your loss Nick. God bless you and your family.
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Old December 21st, 2014, 07:13 AM   #99
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I'll be keeping you in my thoughts, Nick. I'm sorry to hear that.
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Old December 24th, 2014, 04:27 PM   #100
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What kind of gearing are you thinking about using?
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Old February 5th, 2015, 11:37 AM   #101
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Ok guys, I know I've been away for a while but I really needed to gather myself back together....
I've managed to get back to finishing up the bike, mostly to keep my mind busy with other things...
I managed to get it started, checked for leakage of oil or liquids, connected the autotune and set a zero map on the PC V to start over the fuel setting process...
I did a few miles around town, mostly to get the parts "bonded" together and get some fuel values, as well as to double check for leakage or any operation abnormalities....
It is weird...so far it seems a complete success performance-wise (can't say anything about reliability though) but I am not thrilled beecause I can't feel happy even if I had been waiting for that so long...
Anyway...here are my first impressions which you will be soon able to see for yourselves...

While having to break-in a bit the engine and operating it up to 8k prm (with the 300 internal gearing and a 14/41 final), the engine feels very "punchy" from 3k on but very linear too...I can't really express it in words but I will give you sth that some of you might have experience with...the engine feels exactly like a gixxer 750, only missing a couple of cylinders !!
It is very quick-revving, torquey and sounds a bit beefier than 250/300 stocks

I am still working on it; fairings will not be in place for a while, cables are hanging all over it, it is full of dust and dirt since it has been sitting in the garage for so many months and I won't bother cleaning it up before it is all set...

important things I have noticed during those first 50 km I have been riding it...
well for one it has come as a big surprise the engine is not overheating ! that oil cooling system of the 300 has nothing to do with the 250 predecessor...no need for extra radiator (at least not yet) or oil cooler...
second is I definetely must use even larger injectors ! I have seen values up to "106" on the PC cells to get it to the right ratio...I set it to "85" for now and tomorrow or by next week will fit some bigger ones...
I must admit that I have been operating it with filter pods for now but will test a lot to decide the final intake form...
the exhaust system seems to be doing its job just fine...
there is no oil steaming from the case breather even when temp goes really high...
it needs no effort whatsoever to get the front wheel in the air with 1st gear without using the clutch...
base CR is 12,55:1 after all...static is 230 psi when cold
I really don't know how this will go on but its performance is beyond what I had been expecting
I have promised you some video so I will soon upload sth from my first ride...

ps: I noticed Shawn has progressed on his turbo successfully too and I hope Bruce and Eric have too...I have a lot of catching up to do...
thank you for your understanding and your supporting e-mails
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Old February 5th, 2015, 01:20 PM   #102
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very first start-up ! fired right up but died after a while since I had it zero-mapped and it was just too lean to keep idling...

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old February 5th, 2015, 04:04 PM   #103
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Very nice indeed...
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Old February 5th, 2015, 05:21 PM   #104
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Sounds good from what I can tell on my dated laptop! Keep your head up bud!
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Old February 5th, 2015, 05:44 PM   #105
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Very impressive!
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Old February 5th, 2015, 11:06 PM   #106
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Hey Nick,

nice to have you back again and I hope you and your family are doing fine.

About your bike let me say, what an impressive sound of power
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Old February 6th, 2015, 09:57 AM   #107
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ok guys, latest update...
switched to suzuki gsx-r 750 k7 main injectors and fuel cell values are now within a -/+30 so they are just fine for what I had in mind....need a few days to fine tune lower-mid rpm range...
switched to same model's ignition coils but noticed no difference in the break-in revving range
thing is my bike is getting more and more kawa-zuki !
gsxr 750 front brake reservoir, rear shock, injectors and coils...hahaha

anyway it's been raining, couldn't ride long enough but I must say that the slipper clutch is a feature I've come to appreciate more and more... initially I thought it would be useless for an experienced rider or that it is more of a marketing thing but truth is it works nicely and makes a difference even in everyday use, especially when roads are slippery....
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Old February 8th, 2015, 05:01 PM   #108
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ok guys, this is a first "teaser" video...
starting up cold right from home for a little ride around the neighborhood in traffic along with my wife (more than 300lbs of total weight on the bike)
of course still breaking-in the engine (revving it up to 8k or so), final gearing is one tooth longer (14/41) and throttle opens up to 40% max for now...
Fuel values are not fine tuned yet but autotune is enabled and calibrating values for my given AFR... not much to see here but soon will upload one on my own on a highway (shows 90mph on the tacho near 9k on speedo)
it is a great feeling to use less than half throttle on such a small displacement engine and get up to 60mph in a glimpse...till then enjoy...

Link to original page on YouTube.

gear indicator is not working till I connect the shifter...so there are still quite a few things to be done...
it also needs its fairings and a really good clean up...

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Old February 16th, 2015, 09:24 AM   #109
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thank you all for your supporting comments !
engine has now about 250miles and some extra idling/revving hours...
after a week or so I will change oil to check if there are any metal residues or anything suspicious, check valve clearance, spark plug color etc and IF everything ok, then dyno is next...
so far AFR is set for 0-60% throttle and up to 8500rpm or so...
engine sounds more familiar, less noisy and vibrating than the video but feels waaaayyyy different !
I get more and more astonished by the performance of that thing...
can't wait to twist that throttle...
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Old February 16th, 2015, 09:47 AM   #110
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excellent! Feels great to have your own creation running right?
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Old February 16th, 2015, 08:19 PM   #111
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excellent! Feels great to have your own creation running right?
can't describe it in words...It kinda feels like
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Old February 17th, 2015, 07:20 AM   #112
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Read through this whole project...dear god that's a lot of work!

Looking and sounding great so far, but can't wait to get some fly-by shots to really hear what it sounds like.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 09:34 AM   #113
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Read through this whole project...dear god that's a lot of work!

Looking and sounding great so far, but can't wait to get some fly-by shots to really hear what it sounds like.
thank you Jeremy, I am anxious for that too !
well Jeremy, to be totally honest it was more than a lot of work !!
if I had started over tuning my ZX-12R, it would have been much less working hours, mostly because the R&D is there from many tuners like APE, Muzzy etc...
this thing, hell no !!
previous engine blew up because of a faulty shift drum scattered inside on May...
thinking about what next (250 again, 250+ kit, 300 stock or all the way) took me another month of studying and talking with people all over the world to find which parts of the 250 I could use and would help performance and concluding to the disappointment of being on my own...
none had gone that far "marrying" a 300 to an all-aluminum overbore kit designed for the 250 exclusively, which was a gambling thing by itself, not only because there was no previous data, but in addition it is not being manufactured by some known company such as Beet, JE etc but by some Asian non-warranty enthusiasts who happen to make them because it is a popular upgrade in Malaysia etc...
and there's more !! they were unwilling to provide any guidelines or guarantee that parts such as gaskets for example would be available...so I was in "darkness" (that's how the <Batman> came into the title...) and had to do my own measurements, improvements, lightening etc...
then more disappointment to find out piston's faulty valve relief angles and unnecessary overweight...
not easy for some enthusiast without tools, a low budget and mechanics having no previous experience as well of that kind of madness on that certain engine, that almost any tuner looks down to as unworthy tuning to such extent and a waste of time and money (even if successful, brings no fame aka money to the store...)
by the time I got the money and managed to calm my wife down July was bringing the need for some vacation... then finding the engine in a good state and not paying a fortune for it was another PITA...
I found one I happened to know was the one I was looking for, got it in August and took me countless working hours, sleepless nights and a house full of borrowed tools, metal debris, oil stains, sweat and tears...
took me another 6 months to get here (had some family loss that kept me away from everything for a while...)
I still can't say it was worth it since I can say nothing about the realiability...
as far as performance, given the fact that it is only a 345cc, I can compare it to a ninja 650 (!!!) so it is definetely a "Hulk", giving me a huge smile evey time I ride it even if holding myself to stick under 8k rpm...
IF it does last say....10k miles or so of my brutal riding it will be beyond any kind of success I would have imagined but until then there is a long way to go...otherwise I will make it possible to find a way to place either a tuned ninja 650 engine...
like I've said before, madness is the only inhabitant of my brain...
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Old February 20th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #114
micoulisninja
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small update...
400miles of breaking-in, another 150 to go till I check valve clearance and start up connecting quickshifter, gear indicator and placing fairings... then another 50 of full throttle and I'm dynoing it ! Hopefully within the first week of March...
compared tacho and gps readings to find out that tacho is still 5% "optimistic"...
fuel consumption has gone close to 5,5l/100km...hope it is because engine is still "tight"...
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Old March 10th, 2015, 01:11 AM   #115
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Nick since I know you'll always be looking for the most possible high revs let me give you some little information, but please keep in mind that I don't know if the measurements are exactly the same to fit your engine.
The Kwaki EL250B from the technical infos should be the same like our 2-fiddy, with one difference, it is an air-cooled, but bore and stroke look the same and the engine should rev higher, so this engine is using double-valve-springs (you could search in the bay for "kawasaki el 250 zylinderkopf").
Good luck for your next steps
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Old March 10th, 2015, 02:52 AM   #116
Singh2jz
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Just found this thread! Can't wait for the next update!!

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Old March 10th, 2015, 03:06 AM   #117
micoulisninja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
Nick since I know you'll always be looking for the most possible high revs let me give you some little information, but please keep in mind that I don't know if the measurements are exactly the same to fit your engine.
The Kwaki EL250B from the technical infos should be the same like our 2-fiddy, with one difference, it is an air-cooled, but bore and stroke look the same and the engine should rev higher, so this engine is using double-valve-springs (you could search in the bay for "kawasaki el 250 zylinderkopf").
Good luck for your next steps
well, the measurements are not the same, since the oldgen engine had a totally different cam and overall head design...it is a bike that was very popular in Greece, there are tons of salvage parts and its major flaw was that the very radical rectangular cam design was prone to premature wear...
I have come to a halt in my progress at the moment since it is a priority to repair my friend's engine I managed to damage so when I am through with that I will share all of my progress... breaking-in is almost over but not using the bike at the moment since the weather here is not at its best...
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Old March 15th, 2015, 06:00 AM   #118
red26
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Amazing news as always Nick, i'm really glad this turns out good! Can't wait to look at the dyno graph!
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Old May 26th, 2015, 07:42 AM   #119
micoulisninja
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so, after too many holdbacks and unpredictable events in my life, this is not a dead project.... I haven't been able to ride my bike for a long time because of a number of things going on which are of no need to mention here...
anyway... time to move on...
all this time I have been pretty busy... on one hand I had to use sth else as my everyday means of in-town transportation...
so I got cheap an old, dumped yamaha tw200 and got down to work...
I switched the whole front system with a 2-stroke yamaha tdr250's which had been sitting in a backyard for ages, changed oil and seals, took the rear brake system too, switched to 2,5" and 3,5" inch spoke wheels for front and rear, new steel lines, a donator Z-750 for front master cylinder and rear shock and some 125 2-stroke racing slick tyres and I have my tinymotard thing ready....
pics some time later on...
now to the chase...

after about 1k miles of riding I started noticing some strange clinging noise from the valves and a mild drop of performance... so i decided to take it apart and have it inspected... the results were sth totally unexpected...
I will give you thorough info about it, for now the engine is resting at my mechanic's store and ready to be put back together...
Shawn's turbo project write-up have been inspiring and helpful, I am most probably going to use the '13-'15 zx6r's exhaust valve springs too...
what i can tell you for now and show you with pics is to definetely STAY AWAY from the kuwahara big block kit whether it is for a 250 or a 300 engine....

special thanks to @cuong-nutz both for helping me out by sending me an excellent condition used 300 head, @garth285 for all the precious info concerning springs, studs etc and @Somchai for support and guiding through rough times. I really appreciate it guys !!

will give food for debate soon...
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Old May 26th, 2015, 09:10 AM   #120
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Glad you didn't disappear with this project.
I'm eager to see what went wrong with your big bore kit.
I acquired one to do some work with and after machining and modifying the piston decided to avoid the obvious impending failure and not assemble it.
Now I'm researching piston availability from another source to see if I can make this happen.
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