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Old October 9th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #1
abhijitz
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Frame Welding -- RearSet Bolt Mount Point (08+ Ninja 250)

Believe it or not, my racebike's rearset bracket is ripping off the frame mount point. It was bending for a while and i thought it was the bolt.

The bike crashed last year on its left side twice at the AFM races. Never saw any cracks before. It used to bend slightly but i thought the knock-off faceplate was weak OR the bolt

Finally this Monday during the last session at Sonoma; my foot slipped off the left peg at the Carousel and the footpeg was bent all the way inside. Later found the threaded section is ripping off

What are my welding options? Weld an aluminium plate on top and drill holes, OR ?

mushroomed_out_both.JPG

mushroomed_out_top.JPG

rearset_bent_outwards.JPG
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Last futzed with by abhijitz; October 21st, 2013 at 08:30 AM.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 05:40 AM   #2
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Post #14
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Old October 9th, 2013, 06:14 AM   #3
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Thank You ... Great Idea. Mine is ripping off so hopefully this solution works. Noting it down for the welder.


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Old October 9th, 2013, 06:25 AM   #4
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Can you post a larger photo? I'd like to get a better look at it.

I would hammer the mounts back into proper position and then remove the rearsets. Remove the paint from the surrounding area and clean it all well.

At that point you should be able to run a good size bead around the area with a MIG welder using standard wire (or TIG if you wanted).

The frame is some type of steel, though not Chrome moly (4130).

Last futzed with by jkv45; October 9th, 2013 at 07:59 AM. Reason: typo
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Old October 9th, 2013, 07:41 AM   #5
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Can you post a larger photo? I'd like to get a better look at it.

I would hammer the mounts back into proper position and then remover the rearsets. Remove the paint from the surrounding area and clean it all well.

At that point you should be able to run a good size bead around the area with a MIG welder using standard wire (or TIG if you wanted).

The frame is some type of steel, though not Chrome moly (4130).
The recessed area needed to be plated as stated in post #14. The area where the rearsets mount to is really thin with just a nut inside welded. Plating it will prevent the thin sheetmetal from flexing. Overkill would be to gusset the outside and inside of the frame.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 08:10 PM   #6
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Ya, i dont think it is really needed to fill it/"gusset it". I believe @cuong-nutz thread's post #14 should do the trick.

Yes, i will take some high-rest photos tomorrow than with the iphone. will post.
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Old October 9th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #7
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Can you take this to any welder? Or you plan on doing it yourself? If yourself, post a DIY.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 07:47 AM   #8
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I dont have a welder or tools. Got some references. Will update once done. With this oppurtunity, I will also reinforce the right side.

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Can you take this to any welder? Or you plan on doing it yourself? If yourself, post a DIY.
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Old October 10th, 2013, 08:25 AM   #9
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I dont have a welder or tools. Got some references. Will update once done. With this oppurtunity, I will also reinforce the right side.
Cool. Keep me posted and post pics (hopefully not just the end results ).
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Old October 21st, 2013, 08:32 AM   #10
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Fix done! ... Wasnt cheap though. Cost = 240$

1. New threaded inserts for left side.
2. Die-griding the mushroom'ed area and weld them internally.
3. Add similar sized aluminium spacers and weld it to add reinforcement. Done for right side as well.

fix_1.JPG

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Old October 21st, 2013, 08:51 AM   #11
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Nice...who did the work for you?
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Old October 21st, 2013, 09:02 AM   #12
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:12 PM   #13
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Local welder at San Jose, Nam's Welding. He does welding work (custom & repair) on frames & rims mostly. 1-day turnaround.

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Nice...who did the work for you?
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:22 PM   #14
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Dang, that's nice!
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:24 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by abhijitz View Post
Local welder at San Jose, Nam's Welding. He does welding work (custom & repair) on frames & rims mostly. 1-day turnaround.
what kind of steel is the frame? did he say? do you know how he welded it? mig/tig? do you know what kind of filler he used? stainless steel filler? the boxed sections of the frame seem to be thin for welding. do you know if he had to address it specifically with separate heating? just trying to find more info on welding on this frame.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 02:07 PM   #16
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hmm .... sorry, i am weak in this subject and would have never thought about asking these specific questions. All i asked him, what kind of a frame it is, and if welding would weaken the already thin boxed section, to which he said no.

I provided him the requirement to weld the extra spacer on top. He had a sheet whose thickness matched the current spacers. I will be using slightly longer bolts as well.

call him, Uyun @ 408.287.2114

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what kind of steel is the frame? did he say? do you know how he welded it? mig/tig? do you know what kind of filler he used? stainless steel filler? the boxed sections of the frame seem to be thin for welding. do you know if he had to address it specifically with separate heating? just trying to find more info on welding on this frame.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 02:28 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
what kind of steel is the frame? did he say? do you know how he welded it? mig/tig? do you know what kind of filler he used? stainless steel filler? the boxed sections of the frame seem to be thin for welding. do you know if he had to address it specifically with separate heating? just trying to find more info on welding on this frame.
The frame is mild steel or a moderate high strength steel, but not chrome moly.

Those look like MIG welds to me. Most likely standard ER70S-6 wire. No need to preheat.

If you were to make a plate, I would make one big enough to connect the holes and shape it to fill-in the low area, then weld it around the perimeter.

If you decide to talk to him, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old October 1st, 2022, 03:40 PM   #18
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I know this thread is old, but this bending of the rear set mount just happened to my ninja. I plan on taking it down to the frame this winter for other work so welding/fabbing a rearset mount is now part of that job.

My question is, is the recessed part where the threads are hollow? If so has anyone cut the whole jimmy out and replaced it with a piece of plate steel? I would prefer to do this method because I can get the same strength and recess the peg more so it doesn't touch down as much. Curious if it's been done and if there are pictures?

Thanks.
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Old October 2nd, 2022, 10:14 AM   #19
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here's easy and safe no-welding solution here:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=340674

I'll go over your questions and more details on why Kawasaki only used outer layer of frame rather than both for rearset mounting in a little bit. Here's back side of rearset-mounting with un-used inner-layer of frame in stock configuration:


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Old October 3rd, 2022, 08:58 PM   #20
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here's easy and safe no-welding solution here:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=340674

I'll go over your questions and more details on why Kawasaki only used outer layer of frame rather than both for rearset mounting in a little bit. Here's back side of rearset-mounting with un-used inner-layer of frame:

Thanks for this. I am not sure I get it though. Is the mounting nut behind the swingarm? I don't see it in the pic. Whatever the fix, I am going to do it to both sides of the bike.
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Old October 4th, 2022, 05:13 AM   #21
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This view is from the swingarm, inside the frame. He’s saying that Kawasaki only mounted the footrest brackets to one layer so there is nothing on the back side of the frame there. Ignore the rearset adjuster/relocator plate… it mounts the same place as the footrest brackets originally did.

It is a little weird that Kawasaki would specifically bulk that area of the frame up and then neglect to use that extra strength for the footrest bracket mount. Perhaps their engineers had a reason, like they’d rather the mount bend in a crash than the frame (MUCH easier to fix).

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Old October 4th, 2022, 04:15 PM   #22
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From the instructions on the linked thread it seems like I should be seeing a bolt through the back of the frame in the pic above. I guess I need to get in there and really take a look at the layers of the frame to understand what is happening.
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Old October 4th, 2022, 07:21 PM   #23
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From the instructions on the linked thread it seems like I should be seeing a bolt through the back of the frame in the pic above. I guess I need to get in there and really take a look at the layers of the frame to understand what is happening.
Right. The pic above is just demonstrating that the stock frame does not mount the footrests through both layers of the frame. It wasnít meant to demonstrate the fix from the thread. Donít worry: Youíre on the right track.
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Old October 5th, 2022, 06:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by blackiredi View Post
My question is, is the recessed part where the threads are hollow? If so has anyone cut the whole jimmy out and replaced it with a piece of plate steel? I would prefer to do this method because I can get the same strength and recess the peg more so it doesn't touch down as much. Curious if it's been done and if there are pictures?
Rearset mounting of frame is same as surrounding area, dual-wall hollow box-section. By connecting both outside and layers, you get maximum strength for least amount of weight and material used. Look at how mounting for swingarm pivot is configured. The wider the inner to outer surface that’s connected, the stiffer and stronger the joint.

“Issue” with rearset mounting is that actual contact area (threaded nuts) is only on outer surface of frame. This has strength and rigidity of only 1.8mm layer rather than 30mm width of swingarm pivot mount. This is actually by design, here’s how it looks on unused back side.



I had factory mounting point bend inwards enough that rearset rubbed on swingarm after crash on my 1st race-bike. Not wanting to have it occur again, I welded in Ĺ” steel plate with threaded holes for rearset similar to what’s shown earlier in this and other threads. Problem with this method is it doesn’t decrease forces on mounting-point in crash.

Rather than bending or stripping out mounting point, that impact force is now transferred further forward on frame… and bends frame there instead… at swingarm pivot!!! This happened to my frame at next crash. Wasn’t obvious at first, because rearsets were fine, but suspension behaved weirdly. It compressed more than before and rebounded less, sometimes bottoming out. Movement was also slow and lazy. Asked Dave Moss to take a look and he said it felt like suspension bearings were dry and needed greasing… odd I had done that just 5-months ago…

After taking shock and linkage off, I couldn’t even move swingarm up & down! Needs grease! So I pulled out pivot-axle, clean and greased needle-bearings and reinserted axle…. It didn’t fit!, tip ended off my about 1mm on other side. If I bent and forced axle through 2nd hole, it bound up bearings so much, swingarm couldn’t swing! I had bent my frame in crash because rearset mounting was TOO stiff, and forces from crash leveraged off rearset pegs and bent area ahead of rearset mounting, the swingarm pivot!!! After close to $1000 from GP Frame, I got frame back, un-bent and re-aligned so swingarm bolt can go straight across.

On my 2nd race-bike, I used solution provided here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=340674
Connect both outside and inner-layers (I spot-welded thin nuts on outside of inner frame-surface). By loading bolt in double-shear, you get stronger mounting point. To reduce forces imparted to frame during crash, I replaced solid pegs that came with rearset with folding pegs. Along with using hollow aluminium bolts to attach rearset to frame. This further reduced forces on frame in crash as rearset broke free rather than bending frame. I safety-wired rearset to frame so it wouldn’t get lost when breaking off. I shared this solution with another racer who had swingarm-pivot bend in crash because of re-inforcing rearset mount after prior crash. After 2 additional crashes on mine and 3 on hers, neither of our frames were bent at swingarm pivot!

BTW - frame is made of mild-steel, 1020 or 1022. Not aluminium as mentioned earlier in this thread. Not sure how welder was able to weld aluminium spacers to steel frame. Ferrari has patented process "Ferran" to attach steel to aluminium. Suppose it's some kind of brazing using custom filler-metal that adheres to both. Certainly not something welder in San Jose did.

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Old October 5th, 2022, 07:00 PM   #25
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Ok. Thank you. That all makes a lot of sense. Definitely don't want to bend the frame. I looked at the bike and the rearset was already threaded through. So, now the both the inner and outer layers are bent in. If I bend it back I'm worried about fatigue and cracking next crash, but I hear you about not wanting to transfer the forces further into the frame. The aluminum bolts and folding pegs seem necessary. Thanks for the help!
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Old October 10th, 2022, 01:24 PM   #26
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Ok. Thank you. That all makes a lot of sense. Definitely don't want to bend the frame. I looked at the bike and the rearset was already threaded through. So, now the both the inner and outer layers are bent in. If I bend it back I'm worried about fatigue and cracking next crash, but I hear you about not wanting to transfer the forces further into the frame. The aluminum bolts and folding pegs seem necessary. Thanks for the help!
I'm not sure I understand.

If you remove rearset from frame, both inner & outer layers of frame has threaded inserts? FOUR threaded inserts per side?
With mounting-bolts removed, is there hole you can see through outer and inner layers of frame?

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Old October 10th, 2022, 02:54 PM   #27
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The right hand side of the bike is OEM. The left side has the OEM threads plus a hole through the back layer of the frame with a nut on the back, plus a plate of 1/8" steel between the rearset and frame.
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Old October 10th, 2022, 02:57 PM   #28
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Only the bolts ended up being bent- as far as I can tell.
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Old October 10th, 2022, 10:58 PM   #29
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Ah, so your left side has already been repaired. Can probably leave that plate off. Unless it's welded to frame, wouldn't change how loads are transmitted to frame. Would press on frame exactly same as having rearsets in direct contact (if original threads are stripped).

Are original outside threads good enough to use? Gently thread bolts in 5-turns and wiggle & yank on them. Would be good time to weld new inserts in for fresh threads on outside.

And drill other side's inner layer and weld some thin nuts on as well. Use long threaded bolt to go through both sets of threads to hold backside nuts in place and synchronise threads.
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Old October 11th, 2022, 02:29 PM   #30
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Ah, so your left side has already been repaired. Can probably leave that plate off. Unless it's welded to frame, wouldn't change how loads are transmitted to frame. Would press on frame exactly same as having rearsets in direct contact (if original threads are stripped).

Are original outside threads good enough to use? Gently thread bolts in 5-turns and wiggle & yank on them. Would be good time to weld new inserts in for fresh threads on outside.

And drill other side's inner layer and weld some thin nuts on as well. Use long threaded bolt to go through both sets of threads to hold backside nuts in place and synchronise threads.
So, I got my self two options. The first is 8mm rivet nuts- I can put one in front and one in back for threads on both layers. The other is hexagonal joining nuts- or whatever they are called. These I would place through the frame and weld to both layers of the frame for a "through thread". I'm leaning toward rivet nuts because the welder I have access to would mean transporting a non-rolling bike.

Thoughts?
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Old October 11th, 2022, 02:57 PM   #31
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Riv-nuts should be fine. Important part is they are far apart to give strong double-shear mounting for bolt. Can even braze them on with MAPP torche if you've got one.

On back-sides, you can even just braze/weld on those nuts that are already there. Perhaps re-inforce hole with some fender-washers, then thin nut on top.

On such thin metal, I'd be more comfortable with lower-temps of brass brazing than high-heat from welding. HAZ and carbide particles from welding will cause joint to crack over time. Kinda like how those K&N filters blow up over time from metal fatigue.

Heck, might even be able to glue them in with strong 10K-psi marine epoxy!
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Old October 11th, 2022, 04:01 PM   #32
blackiredi
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post

On such thin metal, I'd be more comfortable with lower-temps of brass brazing than high-heat from welding. HAZ and carbide particles from welding will cause joint to crack over time. Kinda like how those K&N filters blow up over time from metal fatigue.

Heck, might even be able to glue them in with strong 10K-psi marine epoxy!
That's a good reminder about dirty welds. Going to try to rivet nuts first. Will post pics for future generations if they work out.

Thanks man!
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Old October 12th, 2022, 08:06 PM   #33
blackiredi
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Here is my no weld fix so far:

8mm rivet nuts used to make an insert with a steel spacer. The rivet nut is just about the perfect length for the width of the frame- contacts both inner and outer sides all the way through.

The whole unit slides into the frame and nuts on the back lock it down. Short bolt is 30mm, long is 40mm. I need to source 35mm and get flange nuts to finish it up. My hope is that the "insert" will give rather than the frame. I would rather replace bolts and rivet nuts in stead of bending the frame back into place. It was interesting to see that the double frame is much thicker on the front than the back.

Fingers crossed. Thanks for the help.
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Old October 12th, 2022, 09:32 PM   #34
DannoXYZ
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Very cool!!

Do you have one of those plates in back too?
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Old October 13th, 2022, 08:51 AM   #35
blackiredi
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Very cool!!

Do you have one of those plates in back too?
No just the front. The one spacer makes the insert exactly the depth of the frame so the rivet nut is contacting max surface area.

Glad you approve!
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