First Accident the Other Day

[Dr Funke]

Hey guys,

Had a blue 2009 Ninja 250R for a few months and went down the other day. Was a little disappointed, but definitely eager to getting back and practicing more. I think I've chalked it up to not being 100% confident and panic braking in a turn. Not my proudest moment, but just wanted to share.

I caught it on my chin-mounted GoPro in case anyone is interested

Link to original page on YouTube.

Stay safe everyone!

[ez12a]

ouch! Hope you recover quickly, and yay for first post..!

[EternalNewb]

Dang. You ok? It looks like your right leg and hand were in a world of pain, and your pants look pretty trashed. Did you grab a bunch of front brake? How's the bike?

[csmith12]

Welcome Mike!

Speedy recovery man.

[csmith12]

Welcome Mike!

Speedy recovery man.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Dr Funke

Hey guys,

Had a blue 2009 Ninja 250R for a few months and went down the other day. Was a little disappointed, but definitely eager to getting back and practicing more. I think I've chalked it up to not being 100% confident and panic braking in a turn. Not my proudest moment, but just wanted to share.

Stay safe everyone!

Welcome to Ninjette.org, Mike !!!

Painful to watch that!

May I ask what made you brake?

[Dr Funke]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Welcome to Ninjette.org, Mike !!!

Painful to watch that!

May I ask what made you brake?

As I recall it looked like I wasn't going to clear the turn, but in hindsight if I just stuck with it i'm pretty sure I would have made it easy. It honestly happened pretty quick.

Ended up breaking my right thumb and got a little road rash on my right knee (was wearing Rev-It! Airwave pants that didn't hold up too well). All things considered it could have been a lot worse.

[jeffb502]

Thanks for sharing, and welcome to the forums. It can be hard to share our mistakes with others, but I'm glad you did because other people will be able to learn and potentially avoid the pain and damage that you experienced.

Have you taken the MSF class or any other training? It looks like you were just a bit uncomfortable with the idea of leaning to make the turn. Towards the end of the MSF class we had an exercise where we got to make a 90 degree turn, then a straight stretch with an upshift, then a downshift into a 135 degree turn. That was my favorite one after a few passes. Another thing we focused on was emergency braking, where you gradually squeeze the brake to achieve maximum braking force. If you don't give the front shocks time to compress when using the front brake it will lock and this video is a good example of how quickly things go bad when the front locks.

If you feel like it's necessary to brake in a corner the MSF teaches you to first straighten the bike up (no leaning), then apply the brakes hard to (hopefully) stop before going off the road. As your skill level increases you can consider using a little rear brake while partially leaned if absolutely necessary, but you have to gradually practice this to find out what the bike likes and doesn't like. A panic situation is a bad time to be trying out new skills.

Originally Posted by Motofool

Welcome to Ninjette.org, Mike !!!

Painful to watch that!

May I ask what made you brake?

It looks like the corner radius decreased slightly and maybe the rider thought he was going too fast, even though he wasn't. Panic grab front brake = down.

[alex.s]

you crashed because you were using the front brake while you were still giving it gas with the clutch out. that's why the revs jumped up and it kicked out so quickly once the front tire broke loose

[EternalNewb]

Originally Posted by Dr Funke

Ended up breaking my right thumb and got a little road rash on my right knee (was wearing Rev-It! Airwave pants that didn't hold up too well). All things considered it could have been a lot worse.

Ouch. How did the thumb break? That can be a real pain to mend. Heal well and quickly.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Dr Funke

As I recall it looked like I wasn't going to clear the turn, but in hindsight if I just stuck with it i'm pretty sure I would have made it easy. It honestly happened pretty quick.

Ended up breaking my right thumb and got a little road rash on my right knee (was wearing Rev-It! Airwave pants that didn't hold up too well). All things considered it could have been a lot worse.

I know; that was a panic or survival reaction gone wrong.
The speed with which you pulled that front brake lever did not allow for any weight transfer onto the front contact patch; then, the front wheel was easily locked up and you lost all steering and traction, tucking the front.
That is a very violent fall that normally breaks a collar bone; you were lucky, as you said.

We discussed simultaneous lean and front brake at large a month ago:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=175349

I am very sorry for all these pain you have felt being generated by such a little input and hope that your heal soon.

[subxero]

Damn, heal up man and work on them skills

[Dr Funke]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I know; that was a panic or survival reaction gone wrong.
The speed with which you pulled that front brake lever did not allow for any weight transfer onto the front contact patch; then, the front wheel was easily locked up and you lost all steering and traction, tucking the front.
That is a very violent fall that normally breaks a collar bone; you were lucky, as you said.

We discussed simultaneous lean and front brake at large a month ago:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=175349

I am very sorry for all these pain you have felt being generated by such a little input and hope that your heal soon.

Thanks for the link...a lot of good points I have never considered. I have taken the MSF course, but I think there are many other skills I need to learn and practice.

I also appreciate everyone's support. Hopefully one day I'll no longer be a beginner and can hang with all you pros

[Brian]

I'm also just starting out, one thing that the MSF doesn't review is high speed stuff like this, sure the MSF is for learning the basics, but mostly all riders jump out on the road on their own bikes after completing the class, how will they be confident if most have never gone over 10mph?.. I can't wait to see the MSF implement a group ride session at the end of the course where everybody rides together, wouldn't that be cool?

With that aside, my only tip beginner to beginner would be that you should be riding at the speed you're comfortable with, you were taking that turn pretty fast which probably made it 10x scarier than it needed to be, thus why you felt the need to tap the brake. so try to roll off the throttle a bit and get down the road safely.

[Floki]

If it makes you feel better, I wrecked my bike doing the same thing. I was going an awful lot slower than you were though.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Dr Funke

Thanks for the link...a lot of good points I have never considered. I have taken the MSF course, but I think there are many other skills I need to learn and practice............

Braking properly in all conditions is the first and more important skill to work on: it should become as natural as breathing.

Please read this:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=589679

Link to original page on YouTube.

[ez12a]

Originally Posted by Brian

I'm also just starting out, one thing that the MSF doesn't review is high speed stuff like this, sure the MSF is for learning the basics, but mostly all riders jump out on the road on their own bikes after completing the class, how will they be confident if most have never gone over 10mph?.. I can't wait to see the MSF implement a group ride session at the end of the course where everybody rides together, wouldn't that be cool?

This.

I remember first starting out on my ninja on the streets thinking this is still pretty different than doing 20 mph in a parking lot with cones.

First time on the freeway was a real "pincher" too Didnt know how much i should push the bars taking turns at 70mph

[cbinker]

it looks like he just mashed the front brake, not sure why. also there is an experienced rider at the rear that doesnt ride very fast checking too.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by ez12a

This.

I remember first starting out on my ninja on the streets thinking this is still pretty different than doing 20 mph in a parking lot with cones.

First time on the freeway was a real "pincher" too Didnt know how much i should push the bars taking turns at 70mph

Seriously, beats me why they don't, hahaha.

[ez12a]

not to hijack my buddy's thread, but I was actually leading. Here's the turn in its entirety for those curious about it. It's a long right hander with a quick transition into a relatively smaller left turn (i did some more braking as i transitioned from right to left). GoPros have the tendency to make things look farther and wider due to its wide angle lens. Those of you with GoPros would agree. The road is actually much narrower than it seems.

You can kind of make out the turns and width of the roads w/ google street view:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6473..._JYQf4O_0g!2e0

Link to original page on YouTube.


we're getting communicators next time.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by ez12a

not to hijack my buddy's thread, but I was actually leading. Here's the turn in its entirety for those curious about it. It's a long right hander with a quick transition into a relatively smaller left turn (i did some more braking as i transitioned from right to left). GoPros have the tendency to make things look farther and wider due to its wide angle lens. Those of you with GoPros would agree. The road is actually much narrower than it seems.

You can kind of make out the turns and width of the roads w/ google street view:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6473..._JYQf4O_0g!2e0


we're getting communicators next time.

This is perfect "I hope he didn't fall on that turn" LOLLL

You guys should have realized he was gone way before He could have died there and you guys just left him.

[algs26]

Originally Posted by Dr Funke

As I recall it looked like I wasn't going to clear the turn, but in hindsight if I just stuck with it i'm pretty sure I would have made it easy. It honestly happened pretty quick.

Ended up breaking my right thumb and got a little road rash on my right knee (was wearing Rev-It! Airwave pants that didn't hold up too well). All things considered it could have been a lot worse.

The left or the right turn? Because it looked like you actually sped up so I'm thinking the left? Was this road familiar to you?

That looked rather painful. Hope you heal fast.

[capt_bugaloo]

I don't get it. You're not going that fast and there's not much of a curve to the road. I've braked on sharper turns with higher speeds and not lost it suddenly like that.

I wonder if this is a case of concentrating on trying to keep up with the group instead of riding a pace you feel comfortable with?

I hope you heal quickly and get back on the horse soon.

[dfox]

Sorry to hear about the accident. It appears as though you were lucky to not hit the curb on your way down, or have a lot of other traffic around you at the time.

The DOT rated that off-ramp for 25 mph. Granted, that usually means you should be able to take it at 50 and be fine, but still demonstrates that it's a relatively sharp turn, despite what the go-pro shows.

I'm still a little confused as to why you needed to brake given the lean angle on your bike and the guys you're following, so it seems like you just need some more practice at higher speed cornering. Most of the guys who race will tell you to just keep leaning, the limit of traction is much higher than most beginners think.

Working up on back-roads with slower speeds is probably a prudent approach. Start on back roads, getting used to sharp turns, and gradually build up your confidence and speed. Highways aren't very forgiving places.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by alex.s

you crashed because you were using the front brake while you were still giving it gas with the clutch out. that's why the revs jumped up and it kicked out so quickly once the front tire broke loose

this

braking mid corner is entirely possible so long as you do it progressively, in many situations it is entirely necessary. Hell just today I needed to brake from 80~ to 0 mid corner because people were rubbernecking and caused a second accident a little bit ahead of me (both minor)
you didn't crash because you braked, you crashed because you braked wrong (panicked braking). That said you were in a situation where you were fine if you just kept going

when in doubt power out

Originally Posted by dfox

Working up on back-roads with slower speeds is probably a prudent approach. Start on back roads, getting used to sharp turns, and gradually build up your confidence and speed. Highways aren't very forgiving places.

I go faster on "back roads" than I do on highways and consider the highways to be more forgiving, in general there's a lot more run off area on a highway though cars can hurt if you find yourself in the wrong position.

[ez12a]

Originally Posted by Brian

This is perfect "I hope he didn't fall on that turn" LOLLL

You guys should have realized he was gone way before He could have died there and you guys just left him.

yeah...

nevertheless it was only 3 miles away from our destination and I had to grab my car anyway to come pick him up.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by ez12a

not to hijack my buddy's thread, but I was actually leading.

we're getting communicators next time.

You probably have already realized this so take this minor critique from a stranger as it is intended; to help improve group rides. Others may not think on this.

Comparing your two videos, Mike was only three seconds-ish behind you entering the corner. About twenty seconds after he went down, you were sitting at the light waiting.

As leader, use that pause to check on your group. Quick head or mirror check to ensure everyone has caught up and no one is missing. Small group of three is easy to watch. Anything larger, have an experienced rider bringing up the rear to watch the newer riders.


I've been in a group ride where the leader and very experienced riders just took off and would wait for a regroup way down the road. Fine and dandy when nothing goes wrong, but leaves the group far to scattered when something did go wrong.

Just my thoughts. Not judging as you did catch he was missing just a minute after it happened. But noticed there was an opportunity earlier and wanted to point it out for new leaders to be aware of.

[jeffb502]

Originally Posted by Brian

I'm also just starting out, one thing that the MSF doesn't review is high speed stuff like this, sure the MSF is for learning the basics, but mostly all riders jump out on the road on their own bikes after completing the class, how will they be confident if most have never gone over 10mph?.. I can't wait to see the MSF implement a group ride session at the end of the course where everybody rides together, wouldn't that be cool?

With that aside, my only tip beginner to beginner would be that you should be riding at the speed you're comfortable with, you were taking that turn pretty fast which probably made it 10x scarier than it needed to be, thus why you felt the need to tap the brake. so try to roll off the throttle a bit and get down the road safely.

You're talking about the MSF Street RiderCourse1, which is described on the MSF site as:

For newly licensed riders. It is designed to be the first street riding experience under the supervision and guidance of a RiderCoach. SRC1 is a partial day program that includes classroom activities to improve perception, has practice time on basic riding skills, and includes several miles of actual street riding in a local area.

Notice they say "newly licensed." Many people that take the Basic RiderCourse are unlicensed, so it would be illegal to just take them out on a public road immediately after the class.

I imagine the insurance for holding a class on a public road would be much higher than on a closed course at low speed.

For riders that don't find the Street RiderCourse1 in depth enough, there is the Street RiderCourse2, described as:

A program that enhances the basic skills and strategies that are provided in SRC1 and adds time and mileage to the on-cycle experiences in a local area. This program is for riders who wish to delve deeper into the perceptual strategies of street riding.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I do on highways and consider the highways to be more forgiving, in general there's a lot more run off area on a highway though cars can hurt if you find yourself in the wrong position.

I agree that highways are more forgiving. Also with no intersections (just on and off ramps) there are fewer surprises from cagers not seeing you.

Mike, welcome to the site. Thank you for sharing so others can "live and learn" with you

Heal quick

[jeffb502]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

I've been in a group ride where the leader and very experienced riders just took off and would wait for a regroup way down the road. Fine and dandy when nothing goes wrong, but leaves the group far to scattered when something did go wrong.

Reminds me of some group rides I've been on, where the fast group sped away from me, the slow group dropped behind, and I was all on my own somewhere in the middle, not a motorcycle in sight, lol. The fast group would stop at each turn point, but there could be 10 miles of twisties or more before each turn point. Meanwhile I'm thinking in the sections where I have no visual contact with anybody in the group "If I rode off the road right now they might realize I'm missing at the next stop, but it sure would take a while to find me if they even decided to look for me."

[OTinyOne]

Hope you get better soon!! I'm a new rider so the video and advices on here help a lot.

[jeffb502]

Originally Posted by OTinyOne

Hope you get better soon!! I'm a new rider so the video and advices on here help a lot.

Welcome to the forums Jess! Thanks for taking the time to register to let Mike know he's helping somebody by sharing. I'm sure you speaking up represents dozens, or hundreds, of lurkers that will watch the video, read the posts, and hopefully avoid repeating the same mistake(s) we are discussing.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by jeffb502

Reminds me of some group rides I've been on, where the fast group sped away from me, the slow group dropped behind, and I was all on my own somewhere in the middle, not a motorcycle in sight, lol. The fast group would stop at each turn point, but there could be 10 miles of twisties or more before each turn point. Meanwhile I'm thinking in the sections where I have no visual contact with anybody in the group "If I rode off the road right now they might realize I'm missing at the next stop, but it sure would take a while to find me if they even decided to look for me."

well at that point it's really no different than just riding on your own. If you're on your own would you expect someone to be looking for you? If anything the chances are higher that someone would be looking for you in this scenario than just riding on your own.

[jeffb502]

Originally Posted by Sirref

well at that point it's really no different than just riding on your own. If you're on your own would you expect someone to be looking for you? If anything the chances are higher that someone would be looking for you in this scenario than just riding on your own.

My thoughts exactly. In the end, even in the middle of a huge group, we're all individual operators of individual motor vehicles responsible for our own actions and our own safety

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by jeffb502

Reminds me of some group rides I've been on, where the fast group sped away from me, the slow group dropped behind, and I was all on my own somewhere in the middle, not a motorcycle in sight, lol. The fast group would stop at each turn point, but there could be 10 miles of twisties or more before each turn point. Meanwhile I'm thinking in the sections where I have no visual contact with anybody in the group "If I rode off the road right now they might realize I'm missing at the next stop, but it sure would take a while to find me if they even decided to look for me."

We do rides like that, but if we are waiting too long, we send a guy back the other direction to check on the slower groups.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I go faster on "back roads" than I do on highways and consider the highways to be more forgiving, in general there's a lot more run off area on a highway though cars can hurt if you find yourself in the wrong position.

I should have clarified that the time should be spent at lower speeds rather than high speeds, instead of saying "highway" vs "back road". There are dangers to both. If he had been in the inside lane (given their impending right turn up ahead) and had a car to his left, this fall would certainly have been much worse. A similar fall on a two lane back road might have thrown him into oncoming traffic, arguably worse.

The point was that back roads usually have lower speed limits, highways ALWAYS have high limits. You're forced to come into an off-ramp at highway speed, which can be overwhelming. On a back road, you approach similar turns at lower speeds, which is less overwhelming for a beginner.

You flying around back roads is not applicable to a beginner learning how to take a turn at speed.



this has been my experience. I ride 95% back roads, and 5% highways. When learning how to turn, highway off ramps were overwhelming at first, having to scrub speed quickly and prepare for a hard U-turn at cloverleafs, all while worrying about ****** Boston drivers rear-ending me. On back roads, however, I was able to practice slowly increasing my turn speed until I became comfortable. Those off ramps now are nothing but playgrounds. I gradually worked my way up to feeling comfortable at highway speeds, instead of constantly reinforcing my fears by only practicing on highways.

[crazymadbastard]

Welcome aboard!
Sorry for the crash , glad you are ok-ish.
I have noticed i feel uncomfortable in long-insh sweepers, just need more seat time.
Practice them emergency maneuvers people!

[Ninja Bob]

Originally Posted by jeffb502

Welcome to the forums Jess! Thanks for taking the time to register to let Mike know he's helping somebody by sharing. I'm sure you speaking up represents dozens, or hundreds, of lurkers that will watch the video, read the posts, and hopefully avoid repeating the same mistake(s) we are discussing.

She's actually the +1 in my intro thread (linked in my sig). Happy to see she's taken a liking to the forum. ^_^

[ez12a]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

You probably have already realized this so take this minor critique from a stranger as it is intended; to help improve group rides. Others may not think on this.

Comparing your two videos, Mike was only three seconds-ish behind you entering the corner. About twenty seconds after he went down, you were sitting at the light waiting.

As leader, use that pause to check on your group. Quick head or mirror check to ensure everyone has caught up and no one is missing. Small group of three is easy to watch. Anything larger, have an experienced rider bringing up the rear to watch the newer riders.


I've been in a group ride where the leader and very experienced riders just took off and would wait for a regroup way down the road. Fine and dandy when nothing goes wrong, but leaves the group far to scattered when something did go wrong.

Just my thoughts. Not judging as you did catch he was missing just a minute after it happened. But noticed there was an opportunity earlier and wanted to point it out for new leaders to be aware of.

I agree with your points. I should have checked for him as i was waiting to make a right. Didnt occur to me

we definitely learned a lot from this ride. we realized looking back that we were pretty unprepared (for other reasons besides lack of comms)

[cbinker]

I have always wondered what it looked like to crash in a straight line.

too soon?