Finally got it over with.

[headshrink]

I'm still at the tail-end of shock, so I'll keep it short. Finally, after 8 years of almost daily ridding, I paid my dues. I'm starting to hurt a little now, but I'm not hurt/injured (we'll see if my chiropractor agrees on Wednesday). Bike is mostly fine, but will need a right foot-peg mount. The rest is just some scuffs, I think. Fairings weren't on, so they're still pretty.

Here's what happened:
Wrapping-up my restoration efforts to give my bike to my brother, I dumped on the very first turn, of the very first test ride. I wasn't hot-dogging, or being the least bit aggressive, it just slipped out from under me, without a hint or chance of recovery. Tires are Pirelli Sport Demons, and the rear tire only had about 4 miles on it, but had been sitting in my garage for 2 years. I know you have to be careful with new tires, but I don't know if sitting for 2 years played a part or not. They aren't cracked or anything. Time usually slows down during emergencies, but this time it didn't. I can only assume it was the back that slipped first, but it happened so fast I couldn't perceive it much. Weird. I sure rolled a lot.

Scuffs on tires from sliding out:



Marks on street:
(I'm not sure if the tire marks were mine, but they could have been)



If anyone is good at reading the evidence, please let me know what story it tells.

I'm still in shock about how easy it happened. I'm not afraid to get back on my CBR, but I'm a little apprehensive about the Ninjette right now. Those tires did NOT do their job.

[NevadaWolf]

Ouch, glad you are okay and it's just scuffs that you have to deal with.

Hopefully someone here can help pinpoint where the issue happened so we all have a chance to learn.

[Skullz]

With so few miles on a tire that has sat a long time unused can get a lot of stuff on them and make them greasy so to speak, before you take another run i would really wash those tires well with grease remover.

[Alex]

Glad you're OK. I'd check tire pressure, but only to see if it was wildly off. A few psi in either direction isn't going to change traction or feel that much, but if it sat for months and it wasn't checked, maybe it was off by enough to make a difference.

Otherwise, it sounds like cold, new, tires that had sat unused for years. The Demons are sticky, but they still take some time to warm up and perform as one would want.

A few years ago I put my ZX-10R on its side only two turns from my house, with no apparent error with throttle or brake. The cold tire stepped out much faster than I would have ever expected on a very modest turn.

[csmith12]

Sorry man... but you're not too hurt, so that is a good thing. Let us know if that changes and hoping for the best for you.

As far was what went wrong, it would be an educated guess from us at best but there are some common reasons that makes riders scratch their heads.

New tires can surprise you.
Cold tires can surprise you.
New + cold tires can surprise you even more.

What was the temp of the air? What was the temp of the surface (estimate)? Psi?

Here is the thing though... I rarely blame the bike. Sadly... looks like the result of adding lean + throttle. If that wasn't it, the adding a fist full of throttle on cold + new tires can slide the rear out like you explained. If neither of those apply, then look at the arc of the mark on the pavement. You was unlikely that the tires would make that turn, with that line, on new + cold tires, unless moving pretty slow . Never blindly trust the tires, trust yourself first. So bring them up to temp first, then scuff them in as needed. The bike nor tires care about the purpose of the ride. :\

[headshrink]

Thank you, everybody.

I had just checked the Psi, which was 29 and 33. This is the combo I've always used for Sport Demons. Most of your comments confirm what I suspected, with the cold + new tire. Although I'm beside myself at how easy it happened on such a routine turn, I suppose no one ever plans to wreck.

Am I understanding your comment correctly, @csmith12, that the last image shows a tire arc that is likely too tight? One thing I didn't expect is that the scuff on the side of the tire follows the circumference of the whole thing. I don't know if that means anything, just an observation I didn't expect.

What kind of a degreaser is suggested? I'll definitely wash the tires, AND hit with some sandpaper for good measure!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Am I understanding your comment correctly, @csmith12, that the last image shows a tire arc that is likely too tight?

A few key comments you made and the pics tells most of the story. The other part that leads me to adding lean + throttle is the mark's length. So an educated guess would be either speed was a factor for the situation at hand (too tight of turn) or adding lean + throttle while on cold/new tires. The length of the mark on the pavement + the scuffing on the tires (all the way around) + your comments support the the latter. Combine that with not expecting it on a modest turn... a rider can understandingly be left saying .

It's quite the bummer. :\

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I'm still at the tail-end of shock, so I'll keep it short. Finally, after 8 years of almost daily ridding, I paid my dues..........

Sorry to read that

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show....php?p=1019700

The conditions of storage are key in this case.
At microscopic level, deposits of dust and dead dust mites that become hard and acidic enough to resist removal can let go under greater forces.

Internal oils and waxes of the rubber compound can take a less homogeneous distribution, thanks to gravity and evaporation.

Sunlight and Ozone do some magic over the bonds of the molecules of rubber, making it less compliant to follow the asphalt's irregularities.

Like our bodies, rubber is meant to keep in movement to keep elasticity and flexibility.
After a long period of sedentary habits, we need some time to get in shape: rubber also needs time to become more flexible and elastic.
It is never good to store tires for long time, especially if unwrapped, static, exposed to light and air.

I advise against any solvent applied on the tire.
Normal use at lower pressures for some time should be sufficient to eliminate superficial residues and contaminants.

[headshrink]

I just went to look at the scene, now that I have my wits about me. The tire mark visible in the picture must be from the tire slipping. I will learn from this, and ride again. One thing I learned is my leather jacket is NOT going to cut it (no armor in the elbows). Also shouldn't carry and ride (primary point of impact), but we won't talk about that here.

I concur that cold, new, long storage, and likely lean + throttle all created the perfect storm.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by headshrink

....shouldn't carry and ride (primary point of impact).

You have received poor analysis from the ninjette brain trust. Obviously; the problem is target fixation!

[CaliGrrl]

Glad you're not hurt and will ride again! Sad that you laid it down, that doesn't sound like fun.

[crazymadbastard]

Glad you are OK.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by headshrink

What kind of a degreaser is suggested? I'll definitely wash the tires, AND hit with some sandpaper for good measure!

Been using wd-40 to knock off the tough grime on my wheels (white) for years. Of course that is pretty slick on the tire so how do I remove it and other slick crap? Simply this...



No need for sandpaper.

[cadd]

A lot of people use dawn to strip the wax off the paint before a full (clay, compound, Polish, wax) detailing job.

It's a great product to use that's gentle on the paint, yet effective for stripping oil and wax.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Been using wd-40 to knock off the tough grime on my wheels (white) for years. Of course that is pretty slick on the tire so how do I remove it and other slick crap? Simply this...



No need for sandpaper.

They use it for oil spills, so I guess why not.

[algs26]

I wonder if this (car) stuff would work:
http://formulavtraction.com

Sorry about you going down.

[crazymadbastard]

Hmm I may have to do some smokey burnouts when I go on my maiden ride to burn out the new tire oils.

[greenaero]

Bob, Sorry this happened to you but I'm glad you weren't hurt and that your moto wasn't damaged too badly. I agree 100% about the cold new tires being the key factor. One other thought; you may have the habit of cornering harder on very familiar streets, particularly near your home. I know for me I always take the left turn onto my street somewhat harder than usual since I have ridden it thousands of times.

[csmith12]

^^^^ agree

complacency - the source of many WTF moments

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by greenaero

Bob, Sorry this happened to you but I'm glad you weren't hurt and that your moto wasn't damaged too badly. I agree 100% about the cold new tires being the key factor. One other thought; you may have the habit of cornering harder on very familiar streets, particularly near your home. I know for me I always take the left turn onto my street somewhat harder than usual since I have ridden it thousands of times.

Thanks, Vic. You're right about that. The analytical part of my brain totally agrees. The part that's always gotten away with it is in stunned disbelief.

I think I'm going to buy a better jacket and get some proper pants now (and slow down a bit).

The primary thing I'm concerned with is the new rider I'm prepping my bike for. Still wondering if I should buy him some new tires.

[kdogg2077]

Sorry to hear about the spill. Seems to be more of a mechanical problem that rider error. I'd be willing to bet the tires were the main culprit here.

I felt a little wiggle in my rear tire coming in a turn the other day. Maybe I should check my tires too.

[Abu_Mishary]

I'd wash the tyres first before riding it. The "markings" of the tyres showed some sort of grease? Most probably due to the long period of storage.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Abu_Mishary

I'd wash the tyres first before riding it. The "markings" of the tyres showed some sort of grease? Most probably due to the long period of storage.

Done. I also hit it with some sandpaper for good measure. Now I'm just waiting on parts.... unfortunately I ordered the wrong side.

[Travis789]

I learned the hard way with a brand new tire, too. They even warned me when I picked the wheel up. The tire has 'mold release' on it, in other words, grease to help it release from the mold. After dumping one I go over my new tires with scotch bright and brakleen. Or at the very least a brakleen-soaked paper towel. No problems since. And don't beat yourself up about it. Because you can't know how to ride to make up for a slippery tire. The slippery tire is what needs to be addressed

[Abu_Mishary]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Done. I also hit it with some sandpaper for good measure. Now I'm just waiting on parts.... unfortunately I ordered the wrong side.

Days are just getting better, eh?

[Abu_Mishary]

Originally Posted by Travis789

After dumping one I go over my new tires with scotch bright and brakleen.

How to know when to stop "scotch brighting" it? Is it until the mold grease seen no more? I have never scrubbed my tyres, so really wonder how this works.

[Travis789]

Originally Posted by Abu_Mishary

How to know when to stop "scotch brighting" it? Is it until the mold grease seen no more? I have never scrubbed my tyres, so really wonder how this works.

Sorry, just trying to help. Obviously my input isn't needed

[Abu_Mishary]

Originally Posted by Travis789

Sorry, just trying to help. Obviously my input isn't needed

I deeply apologize if my reply was misleading. I was sincerely asking how to know when to stop scrubbing it since I have never done it before. If it works, I'd use other brands too rather than scotch bright. It's a bit expensive of that brand from where I am from.

[tgold]

Originally Posted by Skullz

before you take another run i would really wash those tires well with grease remover.

I do not recommend this^^^^ It would be a complete unknown as to how you are affecting the chemical composition of the tire.

Originally Posted by Motofool

Sorry to read that

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show....php?p=1019700

The conditions of storage are key in this case.
At microscopic level, deposits of dust and dead dust mites that become hard and acidic enough to resist removal can let go under greater forces.

Internal oils and waxes of the rubber compound can take a less homogeneous distribution, thanks to gravity and evaporation.

Sunlight and Ozone do some magic over the bonds of the molecules of rubber, making it less compliant to follow the asphalt's irregularities.

Like our bodies, rubber is meant to keep in movement to keep elasticity and flexibility.
After a long period of sedentary habits, we need some time to get in shape: rubber also needs time to become more flexible and elastic.
It is never good to store tires for long time, especially if unwrapped, static, exposed to light and air.

I advise against any solvent applied on the tire.
Normal use at lower pressures for some time should be sufficient to eliminate superficial residues and contaminants.

What he said^^^

Originally Posted by Travis789

I learned the hard way with a brand new tire, too. They even warned me when I picked the wheel up. The tire has 'mold release' on it, in other words, grease to help it release from the mold. After dumping one I go over my new tires with scotch bright and brakleen. Or at the very least a brakleen-soaked paper towel. No problems since. And don't beat yourself up about it. Because you can't know how to ride to make up for a slippery tire. The slippery tire is what needs to be addressed

The idea that companies are still using mold release on tires is urban legend. They haven't used mold release on tires for decades. Scuffing the tires is ok, but for your own sake DON'T use brakleen. It is a solvent, and solvents will remove the very things that the rubber needs to maintain flexibility and grip.

Taken directly from the Pirelli website:

Storage
Should you need to store tires after removal from a vehicle (as in the case of winter tires), they should be stored in a cool, dry place. To protect your tires from damage related to: heat, water, ozone and direct sunlight, it is suggested you place them in opaque, waterproof containers (e.g., plastic trash bags).

http://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/c.../tire-warranty

it's interesting to note that Pirelli says nothing about using anything to clean tires on their website.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by tgold

The idea that companies are still using mold release on tires is urban legend. They haven't used mold release on tires for decades. Scuffing the tires is ok, but for your own sake DON'T use brakleen. It is a solvent, and solvents will remove the very things that the rubber needs to maintain flexibility and grip.

Taken directly from the Pirelli website:

Storage
Should you need to store tires after removal from a vehicle (as in the case of winter tires), they should be stored in a cool, dry place. To protect your tires from damage related to: heat, water, ozone and direct sunlight, it is suggested you place them in opaque, waterproof containers (e.g., plastic trash bags).

http://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/c.../tire-warranty

it's interesting to note that Pirelli says nothing about using anything to clean tires on their website.

Man, you beat me to it. I was just getting ready to post the same thing.

The only thing you need to break in new tires is HEAT! Get them warm, then enjoy.

Side to side weaving actually cools motorcycle tires off. You need acceleration and braking in a straight line to heat them up.

If you ever go to club races, you'd realize just how true this is. Racers put brand new tires on their bikes, stickers and all. Put warmers on them to heat them up, then they go rip ass all over the track. No "break in" needed, just heat. DOT's, slicks, doesn't matter.

[csmith12]

Oh dear... A mold lubricant comment. :\

Like everything in my life where my safety is on the line, I research the crap out of it. Here is the "current" line on tire mold release agents.

It all starts with the quality of the mold. Think about it in terms of the pots and pans in your kitchen. Everyone has that "one pan" that nothing sticks to it because of the teflon coating. And depending on what you are cooking, you may add oil or nah. Compare that to an old iron skillet, where some form of anti sticking agent (oil/butter) is almost always required. So what does that really mean? It means the big tire manufactures have spent the needed money to buy top quality molds that have a permanent coating on them that makes the rubber release easier. But.... they sometimes still get stuck and they add lubricant as needed. After a few tires in the run, the lubricant is burned off but that still leaves 3-4 tires in the run that have residual lube on them. Smaller tire manufacturers may not have the same quality of molds and still use release agents but clean the tire before distribution. Are you a gambler?

Now, each manufacturer's policies on mold treatments are different. Next, even within the same manufacturer, some tires may require the use of an agent where other tire designs will not. Dunlop has confirmed its policy on release agents is to NOT use them. Next, Pirelli has confirmed they DO use release agents for custom sidewall tire designs but nothing else. Shinko & Michelin has confirmed they DO use agents on an as needed basis on their older molds. Bridgestone still lists release agents in their material usage reports. Are you a gambler?

Next, molds have been componentized. You think they build a completely new mold for each complete tire design? No, they don't, they lego the mold parts together to get the configuration they want. Everything is cleaned and then washed with plain water. Did they get all lubes off? Are you a gambler?

But here is where reality comes in. If a tire is stuck in the mold, they will use any means necessary to remove the tire without damaging the mold. If that includes lube, you know they will use it even if the PR folks report that no agents are used, under the umbrella of "maintenance and repair". Sometimes removal damages the tire, other times it doesn't. If the tire still passes QC, it rolls off the line just the same. Are you a gambler?

Additional dose of reality. We all see track riders and racers toss on a tire and scrub it in within a single lap. But the fact remains that they still heat the tire and scrub the surface before trying to run lap record pace on it. That doesn't mean they baby it either... just back off the pace a bit. Also, comparing track use of a new tire to street use of a new tire is like comparing apples to oranges. Even if the tires were perfect and equal, the surface that the tire is contacting is not. Are you a gambler?

Your answers are found in the MSDS, observations of the filmed manufacturing processes and applied policies. It's easy to get around for the legal/PR folks, just use the agents as part of the "mold and machine maintenance" vs "manufacturing process".

Don't blindly trust tires, trust yourself. If it looks and feels slick, it most likely is. Make the tires earn your trust, not the other way around.

[tgold]

Thanks Chris for a more in depth description of what's going on with mold release.

I would say in regard to a tire getting stuck in a mold. Mold release is not used simply because it won't do anything for the part that is stuck. The horse is already out of the barn at the point, so spraying mold release is pointless.

Regardless of our views "mold release" thing, It is my opinion that we are really talking about very small odds of getting tires with any amount of mold release on them to make a difference. If you really want to make sure that you have any possible mold release off your tires, then scuff them with Scotchbrite. It's not going to take but one swipe and any very thin layer of whatever may possibly be there will be gone. Using solvent adds a complete unknown to the equation of caring for your tires and could actually contribute to the very situation that you are trying to prevent.

There is far more possibility of the tires aging and getting a thin layer of less grippy rubber due to oxidation than just about anything else. The tires in a garbage bag storage idea is a good one. I have actually been thinking of a way to take that one step further to help preserve tires in storage:

A little background: The company that I work for makes desiccants and most of what we make absorbs moisture, however we also make products that absorb oxygen. (Walmart loves us because we make an oxygen absorbing packet that they put in their big packs of beef and it makes the beef last much longer. (Relax, it doesn't touch the beef))

Anyway, these oxygen absorbing sachets could easily be put inside the bag with your tires in it. If the bag is sealed, pretty much all of the oxygen in the bag will be removed from the atmosphere inside the bag and would thus keep your tires fresher. Of course, big race teams don't usually keep their used tires over the winter, but the average guy who doesn't want buy new tires any sooner than he has to, might be interested in doing this. Just an idea....

[csmith12]

I agree Mr. Gold, release agent residue is more of the exception vs the norm on modern tires. The rule I follow is; I look at the tire, if there is a concern... I address the concern and/or ride accordingly.

Just so everyone knows what it looks like; Here it is.. You know what rubber feels like and acts like when you roll it between your fingers and this aint rubber. You shouldn't be able to scrape this off a new tire with very minimal effort.


Either way, there aint much excuse for blaming a crash on tires unless you experience a blowout or failure of sorts.

[Travis789]

Regardless of what is on the tire, it is slippery when its new. After wiping the tire with alcohol, or acetone, or brake cleaner, the slipperyness goes away and I don't fall down. It may be that you can ride gingerly and carefully for 100 miles and don't fall down, but what if you have to do an emergency maneuver and the tire is not scrubbed in yet? I'll continue to do what I've done for 25 years. And maybe it was mold release back in 1994 when it happened.

[Abu_Mishary]

This has been a very educational thread. Thank you senseis!