Crash Report - What mistakes did I make?

[kdogg2077]

So I was riding with a friend this past November. I had just gotten my license in September and had put about 1,500 miles in since then. It was going to be my last ride of the year before I planned to put my bike away (cue crash of lightning and ominous music).

I met my friend after work and we did a tour through the back towns of western PA. Most of the roads were familiar to me and we took things fairly easy.

After about an hour we took a new route that I wasn’t that familiar with. On one stretch we were driving on a back road of gentle hills with fields on either side. I came up to one of the hills. It was just steep enough I could not see the other side. Here is where I made mistake #1 - I didn’t slow down while going over that hill. I had been slowing down before I went over hills just for the fact I couldn't see the other side, but I didn't do that here for whatever reason…

Upon cresting the hill the road dropped down and swerved sharply left. I wasn't going that fast (40-45ish?, it’s hard to remember) but I was going faster than I was comfortable with to take that turn. There was no time to get ready for the turn, by the time I saw it I was right on it, which threw me off schedule. I rolled off the throttle and squeezed the front brake….

I broke too hard and the front wheel slid on me slightly. I let off the brake and the wheel regained traction. I hadn't squeezed the brake that hard but I guess as the bike was leaned it was too hard given the available traction…

With so much of my attention on braking, slowing down and then stopping my slide I was way off my line into this aggressive turn and I couldn't help glancing at the oncoming guard rail. The slope of the turn was almost guiding the bike towards it…

I aggressively leaned the bike to get back on my line and make the turn. I felt the bike start to fall and I had the sensation of sliding on the asphalt. It was surreal...

No pain hit me and I stopped sliding quickly. I got up and started to dust myself off while checking for injuries. I found none and, though my adrenaline was up, I was happy to be alright.

My bike was on it’s side with obvious damage to it’s left side. I was glad the engine was still running, meaning my bike probably wasn't totaled. Looking at the bike I was disgusted with myself for what I had done to it. I couldn't even bring myself to touch it. It’s a 2012 LE with , 4,000 miles, practically new. (The bike is OK BTW, after a few repairs)

Any thoughts about what I should have done differently?
Should I have focused less on slowing down and just concentrated on leaning the bike and looking through the turn? Was I right to brake in the turn and just my technique was bad? I’m thinking rolling off the throttle was dumb, it was too late for that when I did it. Shoulda kept consistent throttle right?

If I had just kept up my speed might I have been able to lean the bike more and make the turn? Instead perhaps I slowed down too much and when I went to lean enough to make the turn I lowsided?

Any (helpful) advice appreciated.

[algs26]

Did I get this right?
You braked while leaning slightly left, lost the front and lifted off the brake.
And then really leaned it over to make the turn.

What caused the fall? Did you lose rear grip?

Did you get back on the gas? You're supposed to get on the gas especially in downhill turns. Even to the point of over braking for the turn just so that you can get back on the gas.

It sounds like you almost made it.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by algs26

Did I get this right?
You braked while leaning slightly left, lost the front and lifted off the brake.
And then really leaned it over to make the turn.

What caused the fall? Did you lose rear grip?

Did you get back on the gas? You're supposed to get on the gas especially in downhill turns. Even to the point of over braking for the turn just so that you can get back on the gas.

It sounds like you almost made it.

I'm not sure which tire lost grip, I'd assume the rear.

I don't think I did get back on the gas, at least not in time for it to matter. I was so fixated on slowing down.

I guess I still need to work on my braking. I was pretty close to making it though.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

............Any thoughts about what I should have done differently?
Should I have focused less on slowing down and just concentrated on leaning the bike and looking through the turn? Was I right to brake in the turn and just my technique was bad? I’m thinking rolling off the throttle was dumb, it was too late for that when I did it. Shoulda kept consistent throttle right?

If I had just kept up my speed might I have been able to lean the bike more and make the turn? Instead perhaps I slowed down too much and when I went to lean enough to make the turn I lowsided?

Any (helpful) advice appreciated.

I am as happy about the little damage that you and your bike suffered as about your attitude to lean from that mishap.

Your first mistake was not paying attention to the posted signs for an unfamiliar road; that sharp turn may have had a sign and another associated to reduced speed.

Second mistake was moving faster than you could effectively stop for any surprise; that time was a curve, but it could have been a truck, car, patch of gravel or Diesel or any animal.

Once you were caught by surprise and going downhill, your only way to reduce speed quickly was using the front brake and tire, before leaning the bike and considering that there was extra weight on the front contact patch.

That extra weight due to the downhill did overloaded the contact patch when you rolled off the throttle and applied the front brake while leaned.
Extra rolling on the throttle was the way to go, if the turn itself was downhill as well.

Yes, looking as far as possible into the turn would have done two things for you: slowing down the speed that your eyes sensed and tracing the proper line; looking at that guard rail did not help in any way.

As long as you feel balanced, your lean angle is what should be for the radius of the turn and the entry speed.

[7oxSin]

soo... have you took the MSF BRC yet? or the ERC to sharpen your skills and help you bond with your bike.

things that we cover that might help you: if you look at a rail or ditch thats where you will go you didnt specify but head turns are key to making sharp turns. you did the right thing by letting go of the front brake, did you reapply? where you counter steering?

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I am as happy about the little damage that you and your bike suffered as about your attitude to lean from that mishap.

Your first mistake was not paying attention to the posted signs for an unfamiliar road; that sharp turn may have had a sign and another associated to reduced speed.

Second mistake was moving faster than you could effectively stop for any surprise; that time was a curve, but it could have been a truck, car, patch of gravel or Diesel or any animal.

Once you were caught by surprise and going downhill, your only way to reduce speed quickly was using the front brake and tire, before leaning the bike and considering that there was extra weight on the front contact patch.

That extra weight due to the downhill did overloaded the contact patch when you rolled off the throttle and applied the front brake while leaned.
Extra rolling on the throttle was the way to go, if the turn itself was downhill as well.

Yes, looking as far as possible into the turn would have done two things for you: slowing down the speed that your eyes sensed and tracing the proper line; looking at that guard rail did not help in any way.

As long as you feel balanced, your lean angle is what should be for the radius of the turn and the entry speed.

http://goo.gl/maps/kSzD7

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by subxero

http://goo.gl/maps/kSzD7

I generally do look for signs; I missed this one though. Just a lack of concentration on my part.

So, to slow in the turn, rather than rolling off the throttle, should i have kept the throttle steady and just gently applied front brake at the same time?


Oh and for another poster I did take the MSF course. We didn't really practice braking in turns and we never went over 20mph. It was still great to take though. I may end up retaking the MSF course or register for a more advanced one.

[Alex]

No - using the front brake while still on the throttle isn't a great idea either. Where you are now, get all of your braking done before turn-in, then keep a constant speed through the corner by rolling gently on the throttle. You lost front traction when you nailed the brake, so either it really was too fast for the corner, or you did not brake progressively enough. No matter hard you intend to slow down, you still need to train yourself not to stab the front brake, as it will cause it to slide before the forward weight transfer allows you to brake harder and harder.

[rasta]

Not really much for me to add here, everyone has given stellar advice per usual. I'll just reiterate the importance of getting your braking done before you enter the turn. This is especially true for downhill turns. The obvious physics of the bike facing downhill shows how the front end becomes overloaded. In order to offset that, you need to get on the throttle earlier. This means your entry speed should be a bit lower than your comfort level.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I am as happy about the little damage that you and your bike suffered as about your attitude to lean from that mishap.

Your first mistake was not paying attention to the posted signs for an unfamiliar road; that sharp turn may have had a sign and another associated to reduced speed.

Second mistake was moving faster than you could effectively stop for any surprise; that time was a curve, but it could have been a truck, car, patch of gravel or Diesel or any animal.

Once you were caught by surprise and going downhill, your only way to reduce speed quickly was using the front brake and tire, before leaning the bike and considering that there was extra weight on the front contact patch.

That extra weight due to the downhill did overloaded the contact patch when you rolled off the throttle and applied the front brake while leaned.
Extra rolling on the throttle was the way to go, if the turn itself was downhill as well.

Yes, looking as far as possible into the turn would have done two things for you: slowing down the speed that your eyes sensed and tracing the proper line; looking at that guard rail did not help in any way.

As long as you feel balanced, your lean angle is what should be for the radius of the turn and the entry speed.

Yeah I'd definitely hope to avoid a repeat of this.

I'd like to think I could have stopped for certain things but I wasn't prepared to handle a turn that sharp at speed. You were right about missing the sign, as subxero was kind enough to illustrate with Google street view.

So you think I should have kept a steady throttle, applied the front brake and then leaned the bike while adding some throttle?

[subxero]

The moment you have your Oh **** moment (in this instance) you need to gradually roll off throttle but quickly, then use a controlled progressive but firm application of the front brake (All in a straight line with bike up right before leaning the bike over for the turn) Once you have scrubbed off enough speed or feel like you are running out of run way release front brake allow split second for bike suspension to respond then, press left bar to turn the bike over once you are on your line through the turn and you can see day light out begin rolling back on the throttle and continue a steady progressive roll on.

If you wanted to get fancy you could also add (Make body position adjustments) in there and it should be done while you are braking before you get to the turn and I'm sure some other things but i think thats the biggies, oh yeah do your down shifting while you are braking as well if you can manage it.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

............So you think I should have kept a steady throttle, applied the front brake and then leaned the bike while adding some throttle?

I don't think so, Alex.

The application of throttle while on a turn does more than one good thing for us, but mainly liberates the front tire and suspension of unnecessary and dangerous dynamic forces that the rear tire and suspension are happy to take (due to their higher capability).
For that reason, we want to keep a light front tire during normal turns.

Rolling off the throttle or braking on a turn brings those undesired dynamic forces over the front tire, the quicker the worse, as Alex explained above.
Those are, however, the natural reactions of any inexperienced rider (and some experienced ones ) who believes that he cannot make a turn.

Regarding making a turn, we normally reach a mental limit much earlier than we reach a Physical limit.
As soon as you believe that you cannot make a turn, that becomes your reality and a series of panic reactions appear, which only target is to reduce speed as fast as possible and focus on the object against you expect to crash.
That is the moment at which you quickly roll off the throttle and grab or stump on too much brake (yes, rear brake application while turning still overloads the front tire).

Yes, you can brake while turning, but you cannot use more than the reserve of traction that has not been used for remaining on the turn (the bike wants to continue on a straight line and the rubber is gripping the asphalt hard to force it to keep turning).
Knowing how much is remaining takes finesse, practice and experience.

Best way to reduce speed quickly is with the bike in a vertical position.
Rolling off the throttle or braking on a straight line brings good forces over the front tire, the more the merrier the front patch to do the braking job.

Best way to go from leaned to vertical (to brake hard) to leaned again very quickly is by counter-steering.

All these terms and ideas may seem crazy, but you can learn about them by visiting our Riding Skills section.

[kdogg2077]

I was really thrown by the sliding tire as that hadn't happened to me before. I had always made sure to break before entering a turn so I was always straight up when braking. Since I didn't see this turn coming I wasn't quick enough to do these things. It's hard to remember but I guess I did apply some lean immediately. You're all right I should have kept the bike upright for a few feet and finished my braking. There was room for that.

It seems some practice with my braking is in order. I kinda knew I need to work on that but I put it off. I was worried I'd wreck!!

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I don't think so, Alex.

The application of throttle while on a turn does more than one good thing for us, but mainly liberates the front tire and suspension of unnecessary and dangerous dynamic forces that the rear tire and suspension are happy to take (due to their higher capability).
For that reason, we want to keep a light front tire during normal turns.

Rolling off the throttle or braking on a turn brings those undesired dynamic forces over the front tire, the quicker the worse, as Alex explained above.
Those are, however, the natural reactions of any inexperienced rider (and some experienced ones ) who believes that he cannot make a turn.

Regarding making a turn, we normally reach a mental limit much earlier than we reach a Physical limit.
As soon as you believe that you cannot make a turn, that becomes your reality and a series of panic reactions appear, which only target is to reduce speed as fast as possible and focus on the object against you expect to crash.
That is the moment at which you quickly roll off the throttle and grab or stump on too much brake (yes, rear brake application while turning still overloads the front tire).

Yes, you can brake while turning, but you cannot use more than the reserve of traction that has not been used for remaining on the turn (the bike wants to continue on a straight line and the rubber is gripping the asphalt hard to force it to keep turning).
Knowing how much is remaining takes finesse, practice and experience.

Best way to reduce speed quickly is with the bike in a vertical position.
Rolling off the throttle or braking on a straight line brings good forces over the front tire, the more the merrier the front patch to do the braking job.

Best way to go from leaned to vertical (to brake hard) to leaned again very quickly is by counter-steering.

All these terms and ideas may seem crazy, but you can learn about them by visiting our Riding Skills section.

Everything you're saying makes sense. I had this feeling when I saw the turn that I needed to start to lean IMMEDIATELY. If I had been a little more cool about it I could have spared a few feet to brake.

Would you say I need to practice braking in particular to help avoid this again? Progressive but aggressive braking?

Besides paying more attention to road signs.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by subxero

The moment you have your Oh **** moment (in this instance) you need to gradually roll off throttle but quickly, then use a controlled progressive but firm application of the front brake (All in a straight line with bike up right before leaning the bike over for the turn) Once you have scrubbed off enough speed or feel like you are running out of run way release front brake allow split second for bike suspension to respond then, press left bar to turn the bike over once you are on your line through the turn and you can see day light out begin rolling back on the throttle and continue a steady progressive roll on.

If you wanted to get fancy you could also add (Make body position adjustments) in there and it should be done while you are braking before you get to the turn and I'm sure some other things but i think thats the biggies, oh yeah do your down shifting while you are braking as well if you can manage it.

How would you practice something like this? Go to an out of the way road and do some hard braking while trying not to slide?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

My bike was on it’s side with obvious damage to it’s left side. I was glad the engine was still running, meaning my bike probably wasn't totaled.

In addition to what everyone else has said about the cause of the crash, this is a bad thing too. When a bike is on its side, it is important to stop the engine. Sometimes it will just flood the carbs and die naturally, but if it continues to run on its side, its the same as running without oil. In other words, depending on how long it ran, it might be damaged inside.

There is no reason to do anything about it now, but it may have shortened the usable lifespan of the bike. Filling it with full synthetic helps a lot in these cases. If it is at all possible, the bike should be turned off if it ends up running on its side. Some bikes have automatic kill switches that stop the bike if it goes horizontal, but the pregen and newgen don't have that - not sure about the 300.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

How would you practice something like this? Go to an out of the way road and do some hard braking while trying not to slide?

open unoccupied parking lot. If you can imagine the curve then great, if not get a few road cones. or other markers that will not cause any issues if you hit them/ride over them with bike. Set up a braking point with limited distance to the turn in point. No braking before that point, and gentle acceleration to that point. In an open parking lot it won't matter if you run wide so you can test some different speeds and amount of braking. Make sure you check parking lot good for gravel, broken glass, ect… anything out of the ordinary that might cause problems for such an exercise. Work up to higher speeds and stronger braking a little at a time.

Unfortunately it is almost impossible to recreate an oh **** moment for practice as even when doing this parking lot exercise like above it will be hard for anyone to not anticipate the maneuver and compensate one way or another beforehand but it is the best i can come up with that just about anyone can do

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

Everything you're saying makes sense. I had this feeling when I saw the turn that I needed to start to lean IMMEDIATELY. If I had been a little more cool about it I could have spared a few feet to brake.

Would you say I need to practice braking in particular to help avoid this again? Progressive but aggressive braking?

Besides paying more attention to road signs.

Yes, a typical mistake is to start to lean and turn too soon.
You will learn to extend that moment until deeper into the turn, as well as to quick flick the bike.

The only remedy is keeping riding, polishing good basic techniques, but at a pace that avoids panic reactions.
You will get scared (and dangerous to yourself) as many times as your brain perceives that you don't have enough space in front of you.
As space and speed are directly linked, slowing down is the best approach.
How much? As much as you need to feel comfortable.

The good techniques will make your ride smooth and more controlled and will become naturally faster.
Trying to push yourself out of your comfort zone when you are not ready is a recipe for disaster.
Training on mastering that brake lever goes first and as stopping quickly and safely is many times more difficult than twisting that throttle and rolling faster.

Here is some good reading about that first fundamental skill:

http://www.msgroup.org/Articles.aspx?Cat=2

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147377

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134072

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149961

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120133

[kdogg2077]

Hey I just wanted to thank everybody for the great advice. I'm gonna keep this thread on file as I get started riding again this Spring.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

Any thoughts about what I should have done differently?
Should I have focused less on slowing down and just concentrated on leaning the bike and looking through the turn? Was I right to brake in the turn and just my technique was bad? I’m thinking rolling off the throttle was dumb, it was too late for that when I did it. Shoulda kept consistent throttle right?

If I had just kept up my speed might I have been able to lean the bike more and make the turn? Instead perhaps I slowed down too much and when I went to lean enough to make the turn I lowsided?

Any (helpful) advice appreciated.

Bummer that you went down. Going down on the last ride of the season is the worst because you have so long to dwell on it.

1st - You already know where you did wrong. Outriding your vision on an unfamiliar road. (source of the issue)
2nd - Surprise corners should never happen but if they do, at only 40-45 mph a 250 can turn in ways you never imagined. Knowing your bikes limits would have helped there. There are few ways to get to know the limits but that is another thread.... You did ask though, so maybe in a bit I will review some ways to practice this as it relates to braking because even on stock bits, you can scrub some serious speed in short distances. The goal isn't actually to push the bike's limits but instead... it's to build yours up higher.
3rd - Rolling off might not have been a totally bad thing, If you must brake in a corner, best pick it up, scrub some speed and then countersteer back on line + throttle. You can repeat it if you need to scrub off more speed. I just had to do this on the track when my fairing broke loose. Keeping it on track vs. keeping it on the road is sometimes the same thing, other times... not so much.

Props for asking questions though.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Bummer that you went down. Going down on the last ride of the season is the worst because you have so long to dwell on it.

1st - You already know where you did wrong. Outriding your vision on an unfamiliar road. (source of the issue)
2nd - Surprise corners should never happen but if they do, at only 40-45 mph a 250 can turn in ways you never imagined. Knowing your bikes limits would have helped there. There are few ways to get to know the limits but that is another thread.... You did ask though, so maybe in a bit I will review some ways to practice this as it relates to braking because even on stock bits, you can scrub some serious speed in short distances. The goal isn't actually to push the bike's limits but instead... it's to build yours up higher.
3rd - Rolling off might not have been a totally bad thing, If you must brake in a corner, best pick it up, scrub some speed and then countersteer back on line + throttle. You can repeat it if you need to scrub off more speed. I just had to do this on the track when my fairing broke loose. Keeping it on track vs. keeping it on the road is sometimes the same thing, other times... not so much.

Props for asking questions though.

Yeah I had a good while to dwell on things. Having to look at it all messed up sucked but once I got the bike repaired and new parts I didn't feel as bad.

In a tight turn like this you don't have much space to straighten out and brake. I would have had to really push the bike up, brake then back down again. No reason I can't practice quickly countersteering/leaning the bike.

In my head I know the bike can turn like crazy but it's hard to really trust that until you've done it. I had been trying to take things easy so I really hadn't taken any turns with much speed/lean. I figured I would gradually build up to things like that with time. Then I popped over that hill and I needed some skills I hadn't built up yet.

[drbyatch]

So you think I should have kept a steady throttle, applied the front brake and then leaned the bike while adding some throttle?

I know this thread is a bit old but i found it interesting anyway... and ad my 2Cents.

at the point your thinking about/dwelling on you where you were already 'doomed'.. dont think about that point think about BEFORE the corner you didnt brake enough/setup/prepare for the following corner.

you are thinking alot about the 3seconds when you felt loss of control the bike fading, traction issues etc.. what about the 5-10-15 seconds before that when everything was 'fine', when actually it probably wasn't - you hadn't scrubbed of enough speed or setup diffrently or prepared.

i don't mean to give you a hard time about it but people often focus on the wrong moments when your adrenaline is puming...

moto/rasta/ and others have mentioned similar things i just thought id re-say it in fools proof version as well for others reading.