I heard you guys like engine tear downs.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

If you followed my first rebuild you know I rebuilt the bike in a rush, went down to TN and the bike pushed coolant out of the overflow. This thread will likely cover me tearing down the bike, diagnosing the problem. Maybe a coolant system re-engineer, maybe a engine rebuild, and or maybe a engine swap.

This is the starting point.

[csmith12]

I am the sideways picture police and you are in violation of pic code #59858487. Please rectify this infraction and refrain from further occurrences. Thank you for your cooperation.


lol

Good luck with the rebuild and subbed for updates.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

In the process of removing the engine I discovered the carb boots melted to the head. (It must have gotten pretty hot)

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Typically I would put blocks under the engine, life the bike with my bike hoist, then carry the engine to the top of the bench. However, I hurt my back three weeks ago carrying the ninjette, (I've been limping for the past three weeks) so instead, I lowered the motor onto a car jack, and rolled it out from the bike. I will work on the motor on the ground (I will clean the ground well).

PS, you might notice I tried removing the motor with the shift lever still attached. Bonus points for someone who tells me its bent and I need to buy rearsets.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Dirt is the enemy when working with motors, and I don't **** around. I get more scrubbing to do. (The little area was just for the photo).

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I am the sideways picture police and you are in violation of pic code #59858487. Please rectify this infraction and refrain from further occurrences. Thank you for your cooperation.


lol

Good luck with the rebuild and subbed for updates.

Take a hike Chris!
I read these threads lying down in bed to help me fall asleep so the pictures are oriented perfectly!

And of course I'm kidding Ryan: these types of threads are excellent!
I wish I had the patience to do them myself when tinkering!

[HoneyBadgerRy]

My tablet crashed halfway through uploading images, hopefully they all go through (it says they are still uploading). I will update with what I can recover later.

[The head is off and nothing is ovipously wrong. Probably still a warped head, there was some moisture on both sides of the head gasket (not sure if oil or water) so... This also leads to head gasket.]

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Ryan: these types of threads are excellent!
I wish I had the patience to do them myself when tinkering!

Thanks.

I actually always take tons of photos when working one stuff just in case I forget which direction something goes on (like a cam chain guide). I just delete the photos when I'm done. Since you guys like seeing the work I figured I miss well upload them for you.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. My dad wants me to just get the bike running so I can stop borrowing the hyper, but I don't really want to shell money into it if I'm not going 265.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

.The engine tear down begins.


Start by removing the valve cover.


Move the motor to TDC.



Remove the cam caps and cams, and rocker arms.


Place all the pieces on clean rags exactly how you removed them. (Not necessary, buy it will make your life easier)

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Take the oil line off, and remove this bolt.


Loosen all the bolts that hold on the head, do not remove them.


Take off this cap and the pin it holds, then remove the other cam chain guide.


Take the head off as a whole and set it on clean rags.


Take the head gasket off.


Wipe the cylinder clean.


Cover engine with clean rags, fill all holes with clean rags, inspect head and cylinder for trueness the next day.

[Motofool]

I see no signs of compression leak through that gasket into the coolant circuit.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I see no signs of compression leak through that gasket into the coolant circuit.

Me either, but what else would cause the problem? It happened with or without the thermostat, and with a new radiator cap. It only happened when hot.

I'm lost if its not a head gasket leak.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Me either, but what else would cause the problem? It happened with or without the thermostat, and with a new radiator cap. It only happened when hot.

I'm lost if its not a head gasket leak.

Did you see oil floating on the coolant?
Is your crankcase well ventilated?

Could the overflow be due to boiling?

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Did you see oil floating on the coolant?
Is your crankcase well ventilated?

Could the overflow be due to boiling?

The fluid in the overflow is clear water. (I filled the bike up with water to get it home). I don't think the oil mixed.

I have pod filters with a filter attached the the crank case breather, so the crank case should have excellent venting.

The overflow could be due to boiling I guess, but its not boiling due to a weak radiator cap, so that means it would be overheating, and I have no idea why it would be overheating. The only idea I have is if something clogged the coolant passageway. Maybe some of the silicone I used to seal the leaky fittings got lose and plugged something?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

The fluid in the overflow is clear water. (I filled the bike up with water to get it home). I don't think the oil mixed.......... Maybe some of the silicone I used to seal the leaky fittings got lose and plugged something?

Stains of oil show up on the surface of coolant under the radiator cap, it never mixes with water or coolant and it goes up because weights less.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cooling_system

Cracks of the engine block could be the cause as well, but those are difficult or impossible to detect.

[crazymadbastard]

Take the entire block to the machine shop and I believe they can magnaflux to check for cracks. Also check for warpage.

[crazymadbastard]

You definitely have sealing issues, hopefully once you shave the head/block flat you will get a good seal. I would still remove pistons to check for scuffing.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

You definitely have sealing issues, hopefully once you shave the head/block flat you will get a good seal. I would still remove pistons to check for scuffing.

I believe the head gasket has cutouts in those areas that align up with the combustion chamber.
Regardless, I will check the cylinder and head with a straight edge tonight, then if warped I will decide what I want to do. If I am having the cylinder and head decked I mise well have the cylinder bored.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

<0.001" warpage




0.002" warpage


0.003" warpage


The cylinder appears to have 0.002" warpage in the center no matter how you place the strait edge.

EDIT: Cylinder seems fine.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

You definitely have sealing issues, hopefully once you shave the head/block flat you will get a good seal. I would still remove pistons to check for scuffing.

Those are cut outs in the gasket for the valves. Those are supposed to be there.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

I went over everything again to double check (different straight edge, different feelers), all my original numbers in the head were spot on, the cylinder seemed to be true to ‹0.001".

So everyone is on the same page as me, warped head?

[RacinNinja]

What does the book say for surface warp spec?

What are those scratches in the head surface by the feeler gauges in the last pic?

EDIT: I looked it up. Max warp is 0.002"

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

What does the book say for surface warp spec?

What are those scratches in the head surface by the feeler gauges in the last pic?

I have no idea, I never bought the book. Unfortantly.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

I have no idea, I never bought the book. Unfortantly.

Go download one. If you can't find it, I'll PM it to you.

Spec is 0.002".

I would lap/machine both block and head.

One is out, one is right at the max. Get them both smooth.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Had to take 0.005" off the top. Surface is perfect.


Edit: since I figured someone would ask. It cost me $20 to get the head decked.

[crazymadbastard]

That's some good head right there.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Went to the local advanced auto. (What a bunch of morons BTW) and picked up some copper gasket spray, rather be safe than sorry. I also used up the last of my starting fluid cleaning up carbon buildup. The cashier said "well that doesn't look fun" and I though of you guys. I picked up some o-rings, and I'm ordering the head gasket and whatever else I need tonight. I need to measure my temp sensor thread pattern, because I think I melted it.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Ended up buying all new OEM hoses and O-Rings. I ordered new OEM gaskets. I ordered a used newgen oil pump filter housing, and a new OEM gasket. I ordered a magnetic drain bolt for the new housing (lowest point in the system). I plan on buying some kawibond if not I'll use universal. This should help prevent headaches and improve the life of the motor. Supporting mods for #Project265.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

I didn't take many pictures reassembling, but I figured I'd update this thread.
I coated the stock Kawasaki gasket in copper.


Everything went together smoothly, everything checked out.


I was excited to get to this point. I will assemble the bike today, and hopefully get her running, then recheck the valves and torque specs.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

So I did the old fashion trick of squirting oil down the cylinder and turning it over a few times with no ignition or fuel to lubricate the cylinder walls before you start it. Except one major flaw, I put the soarckplugs in absentmindly. So when I turned it over I probably just failed both my brand new plugs... I'm smart. Time for lunch, then problem solve the motor.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

I've came to the conclusion that my bike hates me. It was running when torn down, the head was milled and the gasket was replaced and coated. It has fuel, spark, and compression. The timing looks set. The intake looks like 1° advanced and the exhaust 1° retarded, but certainly less than a tooth. Nothing was really changed, it should just start right up. However, it doesn't. It doesn't even try to start with or without starting fluid. I'm lost. Completely.

The only thing I'm assuming at this point is that the carbs are working correctly. They are fed fuel, and I haven't touched them since I took them off. However the plugs don't look wet, maybe it is a carb problem. I have no idea what it could be. Stuck floats? Clogged pilots? Somehow the fuel enrichment circuit doesn't work...

Anybody have any ideas?

[RacinNinja]

If the plugs aren't wet, they aren't sucking fuel.

Start with Spark, ignition timing, cam timing, valve lash and compression PSI.

Back to basics. It's not a carb problem if won't even cough on starting fluid.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

If the plugs aren't wet, they aren't sucking fuel.

Start with Spark, ignition timing, cam timing, valve lash and compression PSI.

Back to basics. It's not a carb problem if won't even cough on starting fluid.

Spark, got it.
Ignition timing, not adjustable and I don't know how to check, but I already checked that I didn't swap any wires.
Can timing, like I said, its at stock.
Valves are all in the middle perfectly of spec.
My compression tester doesn't fit the ninjette, but the thumb test says I have decent compression.

[crazymadbastard]

Put a bit more starting fluid than you have in each carb and give it a go.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

Put a bit more starting fluid than you have in each carb and give it a go.

"A bit more than you have?"

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

"A bit more than you have?"

"have been using" don't be shy with it.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

I pretty much pooled it in the cylinders. I haven't tried spraying while turning over more than once. It shouldn't need starting fluid to start, so I don't think starting fluid is the problem.

In the past the only thing starting fluid even helped me start is my ****** pressure washer. If there is a fuel problem starting fluid doesn't seem to do much.

[Racer x]

Did you pull the block off and look at the rings when you had the top end off? I did not see photos of that.
My guess is stuck rings. What is the compression numbers?

[HoneyBadgerRy]

I did cheap out and figure that if undisturbed the basegasket and rings would be fine, since they have about an hour on them. None of my compression testers fit the ninjette, so if I can't get out running today I guess I will invest in another compression tester.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Didn't touch anything, no starting fluid, turn the bike on and thumb the starter for a second (because you never know, maybe the left carb just didn't fuel correctly).

AFTERFIRE. It poped so loud it wasn't even funny.

I've heard salt of afterfire, but this was loud. It happened 10 minutes ago and my ears are still pulsing and ringing.

Trying to think about what that means... Timing? I can't imagine it being compression. Maybe fueling? If it was timing it should have done it yesterday though, because nothing has changed.