KTM CEO, only one with a brain or only one without balls?

[subxero]

read

http://therideadvice.com/no-more-sup...-public-roads/

ok TLDR, so it says KTM CEO will make new awesome superbike, but they will not make a street version because such a bike has no place on the road, they are too dangerous.

and discuss...

MO: I see his point and all but you can't control how people are going to use your product you can only hope that they follow the rules and laws that are already in place to persuade them to use their brain. If every company thought like this we would be left with blunt plastic utensils and full caged bumper cars limited to 4mph

[crazymadbastard]

good cause that thing is fugly!

[ninjamunky85]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

good cause that thing is fugly!

Uhh the bike pictured is KTM's current superbike, the RC8. The one you can buy right now.

My question is does this mean they're going to stop offering the Superduke as well since it's basically just a naked version of the RC8?

[subxero]

^ that's the current RC8 which is available to the public for street use, They are planning to make a predecessor to the RC8 the RC16, it will be even more of a superbike than the RC8 currently is. This RC16 will not be available for street use

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by subxero

This RC16 will not be available for street use

Fine... don't sell it in street form. The question is... how will they prevent it from a street life when mr. track day sells it to a non track rider?

[subxero]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Fine... don't sell it in street form. The question is... how will they prevent it from a street life when mr. track day sells it to a non track rider?

it will be up to the states and how tight the DMV/MVA is on their rules. I'm sure it will have an incomplete vin # or something that is not compatible with current regs. Probably says on title "track use only"

Kinda like the Aprilia rs250 cup bikes, but those can be snuck onto the road in a few ways with a little bit of money and the will

[Hero Danny]

This is a tough one, my general take on it is this: If someone wants a superbike and they are old enough for a motorcycle license, etc. Then they are old enough to make that decision to risk their life. It's their life to risk we do not need the government baby sitting us.

In hindsight I do see how having a superbike could not only endanger the rider's life but also those around him.
However, we have motorcycles capable of doing 180 mph that are street legal, and guess what at 180 you can do astronomical amounts of damage to others around you just like when you're going 220.

Not to mention bikes like the H2 is supposedly (rumored) easily modified to be turned into a H2r, then BAM you've got a street legal H2r.

I think overall I think making superbike illegal is stupid, but I do understand why they are trying, in my opinion it's kinda like prohibition though.

[cbinker]

If someone can afford the price tag for that bike, they can afford the price tag to make it comply with street laws.

[Trailerboy531]

The RC16 is supposed to be used in MotoGP...right? While it may be available for trackday guys I dont think you'll see very many at that price point.

Do you expect a street homologation of the M1? While Honda does have their...whatever it was... coming; and Ducati has the Desmosedici street version - KTM saying they wont homologate for the road doesn't, to me, say they wont make a superbike for the street. It just means there wont be a street version of their MotoGP package for the street.

Any thing I missed that make me incorrect here?

[Alex]

His statement was pretty unambiguous:

We’d like to produce a successor to the existing RC8 V-twin… In which case, let’s do the following: We’ll stick to making a Superbike, but only for closed course usage. So it won’t be homologated for sale as a streetbike. Okay? So then to produce that we will take the best prototype development arena available, which is MotoGP. And for the 2016 season there will be new rules introduced when the playing field will be leveled with a standard electronic system, so then KTM can challenge Honda, Yamaha, Ducati, Suzuki and Aprilia on an equal basis. So that’s the concept for development. We’ll call it the RC16 and it will also be available for the normal customer for track days or private use on track, but it won’t any more be homologated for the street. It’ll be a really serious sports and race item for closed course use only.

He goes on to say the following:

But let’s be honest, if your Superbike is reaching 200 horsepower or more, it’s impossible to argue that it belongs on the street. It really doesn’t, anymore.

As soon as the RC16 is available for customers we will stop with the RC8. The design is outstanding. I would say it’s still state of the art, and there is nothing else like it. It’s a classic Superbike. But with the increase in safety concerns, I’m afraid bikes like this don’t belong on the street, only on a closed course.

It's more than just saying there won't be a homologated version of the RC16; he's saying that once the RC16 is out, there won't be an RC8 either.

[csmith12]

[Trailerboy531]

Ah thanks Alex. I had read the first quote but not the second on a different article. The first one led me to believe there was room for developing a different bike with less track focus (like a CBR1000 vs RCV-street-thing).

[Sirref]

@csmith12 I'm dying hahahahahahaha

Sounds legit, I'd love to take a spin on an RC8 track bike and an improved version sounds sick.

Downside is the value of the RC8 will actually go up since it won't have a new equivalent available for street use

[kdogg2077]

I think his comments are more of a reflection of how little KTM values their superbike sales. I don't think they sell many RC8's to begin with so dropping them altogether is no big deal for them.


I do understand his comments about putting 200hp super powerful bikes in people's hands though. Superbikes have outgrown the ability of 99% of the riders to handle them.

Maybe we do need some kind of tiered licensing system in the USA. Sometimes I wonder if the reason the US has so few riders is because people bite off more than they can chew and then quit riding altogether. If everyone started riding on a Ninja 250 instead of an R6 I bet we'd have more riders out there.

And then we'd have more cool small bikes

[subxero]

^ US has tons of riders, just a large portion of them are fair weather/sunday/leisure riders and there is nothing wrong with that. On the weekend honestly how many bikes do you see out here in South West PA? This weekend I probably saw more bikes than cars, 95% are cruisers.

With KTM getting back into motogp you would think they would want to keep a SS or Superbike available to the public, I mean it could only help sales... right?

[kdogg2077]

If you compare the USA to Europe and other places the number of riders here is rather low. Sales in general have been going down for years as baby boomers quit riding and there are no young riders to replace them. This is part of the reason why companies are starting to introduce more beginner friendly bikes (Harley's 500, cbr500, ktm 390, Ducati Scrambler, FZ07, R3, Ninja 300) . They want to start developing new customers (and appeal to asian countries).

At least that's the working theory in some of the bike rags I read. I think the heyday of motorcycle riding in the USA was a few decades ago.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by kdogg2077

If you compare the USA to Europe and other places the number of riders here is rather low. Sales in general have been going down for years as baby boomers quit riding and there are no young riders to replace them. This is part of the reason why companies are starting to introduce more beginner friendly bikes (Harley's 500, cbr500, ktm 390, Ducati Scrambler, FZ07, R3, Ninja 300) . They want to start developing new customers (and appeal to asian countries).

At least that's the working theory in some of the bike rags I read. I think the heyday of motorcycle riding in the USA was a few decades ago.

it's kinda hard to compare the US to other countries when it comes to vehicle transportation, it's apples to oranges.

registered motorcycles and motorcycle sales are up from the 90's and they are climbing again after the drop from the jump in sales a few years back this should be expected with population increase though, would be nice to see some stats that are teased apart, factoring in riders per people and also factor in age groups as well.

There was the huge boom in sales in the mid 2000's but you can't expect that to hold steady, it's not like you buy a new bike every 2 years so most of those people who bought bikes, and here in PA there was a huge boom in the cruiser crowd they won't buy another bike for many many years as they probably only put 1000 miles if that on it in a year doing summer time weekend rides. Most of my uncles have cruisers, they bought them in mid 2000's I bet they don't ride 4 times a year

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/ri...ml/entire.html

http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...statistics.htm

http://www.motorcycleroads.com/augme....GVf6fr6R.dpbs

[Alex]

Units are back up, but people are buying different things. The bottom dropped out of the 600cc sportbike sales, which is why they have gone from 2-yr updates to 5 - 8 yr updates for anything significant now. All sportbike sales at any volume is now at the 1000cc+ range, but even those are being dwarfed by adventure bikes, standard bikes, newbie-friendly bikes, etc. I think @kdogg2077 is onto something. KTM is attempting to increase its sales volume significantly, but it's clear that they don't think the superbike market is going to help them.

January 21, 2014 - (Press release edited by webBikeWorld) - KTM has doubled sales volume since 2008, with 123,859 motorcycles sold worldwide in 2013 (107,142 units sold in 2012). The most popular model is the new KTM 1190 Adventure (report). KTM's recent 1-2 victory in the "Dakar" South American rally probably helped also.

KTM now claims they are the "fastest growing motorcycle brand in the world" over the last three years.

KTM has contract manufacturing and their own manufacturing facilities in India, Malaysia and Colombia (of all places). CFMoto in China will produce KTM bikes and more factories are planned in Thailand, Brazil and the Philippines. The plan is to increase production to 200,000 motorcycles by 2016.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Alex

Units are back up, but people are buying different things. The bottom dropped out of the 600cc sportbike sales, which is why they have gone from 2-yr updates to 5 - 8 yr updates for anything significant now. All sportbike sales at any volume is now at the 1000cc+ range, but even those are being dwarfed by adventure bikes, standard bikes, newbie-friendly bikes, etc. I think @kdogg2077 is onto something. KTM is attempting to increase its sales volume significantly, but it's clear that they don't think the superbike market is going to help them.

do they count off road sales in all of that?

If so then that is a huge part of the market right there, KTM's off road sales in the US are way up. They are pretty much the only major company that still offers 2 strokes other than Yamaha and Yamy only really offer their MX bike where as KTM has a whole line up of 2 strokes from MX to XC they get routine updates and their 4 strokes are on par with the big 4 as well. The popularity of hare scrambles and XC here in the US is growing and KTM has that market wrapped up.

[kdogg2077]

Originally Posted by subxero

do they count off road sales in all of that?

If so then that is a huge part of the market right there, KTM's off road sales in the US are way up. They are pretty much the only major company that still offers 2 strokes other than Yamaha and Yamy only really offer their MX bike where as KTM has a whole line up of 2 strokes from MX to XC they get routine updates and their 4 strokes are on par with the big 4 as well. The popularity of hare scrambles and XC here in the US is growing and KTM has that market wrapped up.

I think this is pretty key as to why KTM is so blase about sportbike sales. They make most of their money off of dirt bikes anyways. Sportbikes are probably 1% of their overall sales. So they can make "virtuous" claims about not selling sportbikes so they look ethical when is reality they are just quitting a game they weren't winning anyways (compete for sportbike sales).

[alex.s]

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Fine... don't sell it in street form. The question is... how will they prevent it from a street life when mr. track day sells it to a non track rider?

They won't prevent it… but to be honest, who would bother? You'd wind up with a Frankenstein build. Being track-only, the RC16 will have no brackets, bodywork or wiring for an ignition key, turn signals or headlight. Safe bet it wouldn't meet noise regs either. Sure you can hack up the factory stuff and make it work, but WHY? There are too many other options out there.

IMHO this choice is a straight cost/benefit analysis on KTM's part. You don't make business decisions based on some lofty belief about what belongs on the road. You make business decisions based on how profitable the product will be. End of story.

KTM is way under the radar in the sportbike arena. I've never seen an RC8 except once at a dealer and at the motorcycle show. Never on the road and never at the track. Meanwhile, its competitors are all over the place.

It takes a lot of resources to develop and market a bike. If you don't anticipate enough volume and unit profit to make it worthwhile, you don't do it. Period. Assign whatever reason you like to it… KTM sees more upside in its mainstay businesses and growth markets (read India) than in a high-profile homologated superbike project.

Just look at the competition. Yamaha just came out with an amazing machine in the new R1. BMW has given the S1000RR some serious upgrades. Ducati has the Panigale. What do you think KTM's chances are of making a dent in that market? They'd have to come out with a quantum leap, and I don't see it happening in the near term. The best they could hope for is parity.

And never say never. If KTM succeeds in building brand loyalty among sport riders with the RC390, it's a safe bet they will come out with a larger sport bike down the road to capture sales from those people. A superbike? Maybe, maybe not. A middleweight? Perhaps… that segment has been heating up lately.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

They won't prevent it… but to be honest, who would bother? You'd wind up with a Frankenstein build.

I feel ya, but "some people" don't build stuff because it makes sense.

[nickjpass]

Pretty sure you could street legalize it if you wanted. Easier in states like Vermont and Massachusetts.

[Sirref]

Sure it can be done, I won't be bothered to do it though the rc8 is my favorite superbike I wouldn't be able to trust myself with one on public roads anyway. Same with an r1, r6, Daytona 675r. I don't really trust myself to ride a 300 on public roads safely all the time, difference is the 300 is a lot more forgiving when my inner hooligan jackass comes out to play, which luckily is less and less often

I'm very intrigued by this new version and may get one for track use in a decade or so

[dave42]

I guess claiming superbikes have no place on public streets sounds better than our rc8 didn't generate any sales so we're discontinuing it.

If he's serious about the 200hp engine blob they would've taken out the superduke too.

[Alex]

Yep, as said above, they are just investing in where the market is going. They are growing the company, and even the R&D department, by a significant amount. Pure sportbike sales aren't where the market is at right now, even at the middleweight level. There was a piece on this in Cycle World this month, when they were testing their new Super Adventure 1290. Won't copy the whole article, but will share these tidbits. (click for readable size)

ktm1.jpg ktm2.jpg

[spooph]

I'm so happy about this! I hope other manufacturer's follow suit. Invest in MotoGP and R&D, then transfer that knowledge to smaller more reasonable bikes like the RC390...

There is no reason for these super and hyperbikes on the road. I know some people like them and that's their prerogative, but there is no logical reason to have them on the public roads. This isn't a CC debate, it's a complete package debate. For instance, I know why people like big CC touring/cruising bikes. I'll probably own one, one day, but the superbike is just silly for the street. This means good things for the smaller bike world, and there are still many other options out there...

[Ducati999]

I would just like to add that the KTM Super Duke should not (necessarily) be taken off the market. 200 hp super bikes appeal to an entirely different -shall we say --maturity level than say a GSXR 1000 or a 1299 Pinagale. I strongly believe that we are all responsible for our own actions but the way our society works is by the rotten apple theory--and you just dont see many high speed chases of adventure bikes nor cruisers. Yes there are a few but we all know which bikes are "preceived" as the bad apples. No videos of BMW K1200 wheeling thru mid day traffic on the news lately!