June 10th, 2016, 04:44 PM | #1 |
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30 to 32mm carb conversion/experiment
playing catch up with backlogged stuff, i've refurbed another set of 32mm Keihins from '86/'87 vintage 250....pictured below.
Consumables, pilot and mains all brand new, stock jetting sizes. The broken plastic inlet rail replaced with an aftermarket brass elbow made for Harley spec Keihin ...utilizing stock size fuel line. All circuits confirmed clear, fuel levels setup, wet tested and throttle plates synched. Member Ghostt will be testing the conversion mod from 30mm to 32mm. The 32's are a bored out version of 30's...direct bolt on. We're interested to see any changes in street performance...positive or negative. Came out nice for '86 vintage, eh? ....30 year old carbs! I'm sure he'll offer some feedback and comments here as time allows.
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Custom Carb Service Last futzed with by ducatiman; June 10th, 2016 at 04:59 PM. Reason: additional info |
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June 10th, 2016, 07:36 PM | #2 |
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Okay my turn, the test bike is SERENITY, 1998 with 38k on the clock, only changes from OEM is a K&N filter, CoPs, gears are +1/-2.
Day one: received the 32s and installed them Thursday. Installation was easy enough, primed the carburetors, and started on the first hit, not amazed how this happened, due to the quality of the carburetors being fresh from Ducatiman, and my installation. Funny how there was no drama when it's done right the first time. After the starter up, set the idle, checked for leaks of any kind, which there wasn't. While on the center stand, I reved it easley, and wacking the throttle, smooth, no issues. I didn't mess with the idle mixture screws, they are set @ 2 1/2 turns out, and it seemed about right. Test ride: about 30 miles or so, power seemed better thru the power band 8~13k, felt like it pulled harder, smooth, no hesitation, or shuttering. This was the same at WFO, rolling the throttle, etc... No problems whatsoever. I checked the header temperatures, and they were within 10℉ of each other, so no issues there either, jetting seems right as well. My impression after the test ride follows, it seems to pull harder, and with less input is needed if your just cruising along. I use the bike for commuting, my round trip is 70 miles, so after the test ride I refueled so I can track the MPG. So far so good, I only wish a had a dyno, and exhaust gas analyzer, but my butt dyno says it pulls harder, I made a few WFO top speed, but didn't see any real difference, just getting there seemed quicker. Picture time, 30 Left, 32 Right
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June 10th, 2016, 11:54 PM | #3 |
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i think you need to modify the sprocket combinations to get more top speed but you will lose the extra power the bigger carb provided
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June 11th, 2016, 12:43 AM | #4 |
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Please explain further......
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June 11th, 2016, 02:21 AM | #5 |
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You can modify the top speed and the acceleration by modifying the teeths(gear ratio) on the front/rear sprocket. I mean if you want to utilize top speed you can choose a gearing ratio thats optimized for top speed in the expense of some acceleration , if you reduce your rear sprocket teeth , your top speed will go higher but your acceleration will go down too for example. the logic is this example a 10 teeth sprocket connected to a 100 teeth sprocket. it will take the 10 teeth sprocket to rotate 10 times for the 100 teeth sprocket to rotate once (imagine if that 100 teeth sprocket is the rear wheel) you will have lots of torque like you can ram a wall and still accelerate |
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June 11th, 2016, 03:21 AM | #6 |
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Yeah, already knew that, that's why I changed mine to +1/-2
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June 11th, 2016, 06:38 AM | #7 |
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great so far, Scott. at this point I'd urge you, when time allows, to tune the pilots...see if there's any more there.
Also...I have a couple of questions on basic idle/returning to idle at stop signs/red lights etc (street riding priorities).....based on stock pilots currently set at 2.5 turns... *any hanging up symptoms? requiring "blipping"? *hot idle is steady, no wavering up/down? *any stalling while heavy braking approaching a stop? Of course, i'm interested in your determining fuel consumption next. How did the brass inlet elbow work out? Sized ok? Super job so far...take all the time you need in evaluation.
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June 11th, 2016, 06:42 AM | #8 |
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Almost forgot....much thanks for trusting in me to even try this experiment/mod to begin with....
and your ongoing efforts in evaluating.
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June 11th, 2016, 09:08 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
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June 11th, 2016, 09:27 AM | #10 |
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Interesting, I would imagine almost no power difference, and that the bike would be slower revving (heavier slides).
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June 11th, 2016, 09:53 AM | #11 | |
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Quote:
no matter how how slice it 1 turn = 1 turn
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June 11th, 2016, 10:06 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
They may possibly push taller gearing (higher top speed) but we're not about to invest in sprockets and reinvent the wheel here....must be practical, reasonable and stay within budget limitations.
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June 11th, 2016, 10:24 AM | #13 | |
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Quote:
The brass fuel inlet is fine, I reused my original fuel line, so it's not a super tight fit as I would like, mine's old so I'll just take this opportunity to change it, just because. Using a K&N inline fuel filter part # 81-0221 Hot idle set @ 1,300 steady as a rock, no wavering. While setting the hot idle, I had it as low as 1k it was still steady, but too low, had lag, sluggish, I did this just for fun, and returned it to 1,300. No stalling issues, under any circumstances, always returned to set idle, even in stop-n-go conditions, engine was hot, coolant fan kicking on. I will track my fuel usage via FUELLY, which tracks my usage, MPG, avg MPG, etc... The first refueling I expect it to be lower than usual, due to extremely hard riding during the initial testing.
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June 11th, 2016, 10:27 AM | #14 | |
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Quote:
1) Are the jets and needles the same size for both models? 2) Are the four needles shimmed the same?
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June 11th, 2016, 10:35 AM | #15 |
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My 30s carburetors are 100% 1998 stock, no shims, & K&N ait filter KA-2586
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June 11th, 2016, 10:36 AM | #16 |
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the '86-'87 vintage 32's are stock jetted...stock needles, mains, pilots, no shims
I'd say thats a pretty fair comparison.
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June 11th, 2016, 10:40 AM | #17 |
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I think he was wanting jet sizes, is there a difference? Needles, are they the same, or is there a difference? 30s Vs 32s differences.
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June 11th, 2016, 10:46 AM | #18 |
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I would like to add I felt a difference between the two, the 32s pulled harder a bit.
Ducatiman will be doing an R.D.I. & refurbishing on my 30s, so we will know if what I'm feeling is due to the 32s are real, or my 30s had issues I was unaware of. I'm interested in his findings, as this may be real, or a false positive result.
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June 11th, 2016, 10:48 AM | #19 |
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of course there are jetting differences between the vintages
86-87 vintage 32mm.....110 mains, 35 pilots, N52H and N52I needles differ left and right 88-07 vintage 30mm....105 main, 38 pilot N16I needles But each carb set were/are 100% stock jetted as supplied by Keihin/Kawasaki....that, in itself, represents a fair (apples to apples) comparison in my book. Could a quality jet kit with adjustable needle and selection of mains offer improvement on either carbset? Investment, time, effort required to explore, but not in the radar here.
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June 11th, 2016, 08:59 PM | #20 |
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Didn't the old ex250 (with the 32's) have the same exhaust as the ex250f, and everything the same left to right?
I wonder why they would have different needle jetting left to right.
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June 12th, 2016, 01:07 PM | #21 |
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First tank after swap
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June 12th, 2016, 01:53 PM | #22 |
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how does this compare with earlier fillups on 30's?
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June 12th, 2016, 03:19 PM | #23 |
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Strangely enough it's about an 8 MPG gain, which I didn't expect. Now I'm more interested in the R.D.I. on my 30s.
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June 12th, 2016, 08:24 PM | #24 | |
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I tuned mine for optimum performance, and while she was still running (bent valve, ill fix her when I get around to it) I beat the **** out of her, and she still got 55mpg.
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June 12th, 2016, 11:21 PM | #25 |
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Hence why Ducatiman is going to be getting mine for R.D.I, and refurbishing. I'll wait for his report.
Also it's only the first tank, I'll know more after a few more tanks to get an average. Jetting could be an issue, but we shall see. Carburetors are heading north today.
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June 13th, 2016, 04:47 AM | #26 | |
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Quote:
In this instance, i'll test/carefully inspect his 30's *first*, looking for abnormalities, then wet test again on completion of refurb. I'll be on the lookout for them in a few days.
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June 13th, 2016, 05:42 AM | #27 |
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Great little project/research job. Dyno would have been the ticket but obviously cost issues. Either way, props for taking a gander at it.
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June 13th, 2016, 09:16 AM | #28 |
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I would have loved a dyno, with an exhaust gas analyzer, but there is no such thing around where I live unfortunately.
Cost wouldn't have been issue, compared to real solid numbers. My butt dyno says pulls harder a bit more, it's a noticeable difference, but not crazy difference if you get my drift.
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June 13th, 2016, 09:48 AM | #29 |
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Jetting is OEM for a 98 for my 30s carburetors. No other changes to the bike except swapping the carburetors.
I would have loved the dyno, exhaust gas analyzer the bike, but unfortunately none are close by. Cost wouldn't have been issue, compared to having the data. My butt dyno says pulls a bit harder, not crazy harder, there is a difference that I can feel/tell. Weather has been upper 80s in the daytime and 70s at night, my elevation is about 800' above sea level. My commute is 70 miles round trip along Ky Hwy 90 & 1590, mostly flat, with one step grade, Bear Creek Hill. Speed is about 75 mph, @ 8k rpms most of the way. Fuel type is Marathon @ 87 most of the time, from the same station. I track most of my fuel usage via FUELLY including brands, types, etc... Click on the link below. I've even put off installing my new tires to limit the number of variables. I've done my best to limit the variables so I could report as accurately as possible.
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June 13th, 2016, 10:02 AM | #30 |
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If there is interest in dyno runs, I may be able to arrange something on my NewGen Ninja. Baselines from my guy are cheap enough, though they might need some jetting. I would assume the 32's would bolt right up like they do to the Pre Gens.......
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June 13th, 2016, 10:16 AM | #31 |
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A quick Google search for a dyno, is about 1 1/2 to 2 hrs away.
http://www.classicmotorcycleperformance.net/?page_id=93 Not really sure if it's worth it, as I would have the have both sets of carburetors on hand to swap them out, etc.... Then again.......... We shall see.
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June 13th, 2016, 10:39 AM | #32 |
Vintage Screwball
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I already have a baseline on mine with a dyno sheet.
Up to @ducatiman. Dyno availability isn't for a few months anyway.
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June 13th, 2016, 05:25 PM | #33 |
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Can you run a performance phone app to test 0-60? I do have and performance tester, looks like a radar detector if not.
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June 14th, 2016, 04:57 AM | #34 | |
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June 14th, 2016, 08:13 AM | #35 |
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to enable a fair comparison between the carbsets... apples to apples.. both are stock jetted.
Deviating from stock values may, in fact offer improvement but this thread is about enabling a fair comparison...not a jetting mod thread....to this point. A bit rare, I invested in and restored them to provide a vintage offering to '86-87 owners. Noticing they bolt right on 88-07 , why not experiment? Dyno time, cost/time of jetting....what originally started as a "seat of the pants" experiment is just not cost effective to invest further. This is the 2nd of 2 32mm carb sets I own, both intended to be sold...dyno time, jetting mods, further investment incumbent on the future owner, in the meantime Ghostt is under no constraints...time nor jetting...to experiment as he desires.
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June 14th, 2016, 10:05 AM | #36 |
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True, Ducatiman and I are just doing this to compare the difference between the two, both stock, and set to OEM specifications.
The MPG gain is just the first tank, I plan on having a few tanks before I'm convinced that the MPG gain is true, or a false positive result. I trust my old butt dyno over some free app, and besides without doing it before I sent my carburetors to Ducatiman, I have no baseline to compare to. All my assumptions about performance gains my be for nothing, if Ducatiman finds fault in my carburetors.
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June 15th, 2016, 05:04 AM | #37 |
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the most power is achieved at 12 parts of air to 1 part of fuel but emission and economy will suffer
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June 15th, 2016, 05:37 AM | #38 | |
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Mine varies from 55-65 mpg. I run a 14/42 on mine. My daughter and son have the stock 14/45 on theirs and we get pretty much identical mileage when we ride together. |
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June 15th, 2016, 07:19 AM | #39 |
in your machine
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* your mileage may vary
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June 17th, 2016, 12:36 PM | #40 |
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Second tank of gas, performance is still a noticeable increase, but not crazy difference. It pulls a bit harder.
Ducatiman has my carburetors, and he's in the process of refurbishing them, so far the only real issue has been the floats we're out of adjustment. Which is weird because the bike ran fine.
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