Bike dies with throttle after carb clean..what to do?

[garyg199]

I took my carbs off my 09 ninja 250 cleaned them real good and now the bike is dying with any throttle and is having a hard time idling. It started no lroblem with the choke the first couple of times. I'd blip the throttle and it diies. Now I can't even get it to start. The last couple times I tried adjusting the idle screw but then with the choke on it would start and fly up to 5k rpm. As soon as I pulled off the choke it'd idle down super low till it died. I still have the tank off too. Not sure if that matters. I have a funnel hooked up to the fuel line feeding it gas.

What do I do now? Or what did I do wrong? Could I have gotten vacuum lines crossed?

Also it was super smokey when it did run for a couple minutes. Is that just the crap burning off from cleaning the carbs and the seafoam I had in there? Please help!

[csmith12]

Bummer Gary, might I suggest you start with the similar threads at the bottom of this page. Perhaps your solution has already been covered.

Good luck!

[crazymadbastard]

Why did you clean the carbs to begin with?

[garyg199]

I used a bit of carb cleaner and seafoam. They really weren't too bad.

[garyg199]

That thread is similar but doesn't seem to be my issue. I just got done re-installing the carbs after cleaning them. Jets and all of course so I doubt my jets are clogged. It seems like as soon as the butterflies open it dies. Should I adjust my idle mixture?

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by garyg199

I used a bit of carb cleaner and seafoam. They really weren't too bad.

Not what why?

[garyg199]

Oh! Because I was having some bogging issues at between 6-8 k rpm when accelerating. Just got the bike and it had been sitting all winter so I figured I'd clean them.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by garyg199

Oh! Because I was having some bogging issues at between 6-8 k rpm when accelerating. Just got the bike and it had been sitting all winter so I figured I'd clean them.

your jets were almost clogged... now they're fully clogged. poke them out with something.

[garyg199]

Seriously? How the hell does that happen? I JUST cleaned them? It can just happen like that? I took the main jets out and blew them out after spraying them with cleaner. Ugh now I have to rip them off all over again. Whatever, honestly I hope that's all it is. The mixture screws were still plugged but I removed them in case I have to adjust. So I don't think it can be the mixture. What else could it be though besides the clogged jets?

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by garyg199

What else could it be though besides the clogged jets?

Anywhere between the tank & the Venturi where gas has turned bad or sediments or moisture collected can create the gunk that wreaks havoc. At least drain the tank & lines then flush with a little fresh gas (which will ensure gas can flow to the carb) then remove the jets and float needles and clean the whole carb set thoroughly.
If you just poke the jets clear there may be more crud ready to gum up your previous efforts.
If you carefully wiped clean your water glass then filled it from a dirty tap; will your water glass be clean?

[garyg199]

Very true. Well should I clean the pilot jets too? What exactly is causing the bike to not start..idle weird and die with throttle? Mostly the dying with throttle part? I thought that was to much air?

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by garyg199

Very true. Well should I clean the pilot jets too? What exactly is causing the bike to not start..idle weird and die with throttle? Mostly the dying with throttle part? I thought that was to much air?

Dirty carbs. You only cleaned the main jets. That's about 25% of the parts in a carb that flow gas.

Need to clean the pilot jets, pilot jet circuit, remove and clean the mix screws and their passages too. When you reinstall them, set the mix screws to 2.5 turns out from full in.

Don't use carb cleaner near the diaphragms, it will distort them and eat them up.

Inspect the needle and seat too to be sure they are working and flowing fuel and sealing properly. Make sure the floats are set properly.

[ducatiman]

Originally Posted by garyg199

Very true. Well should I clean the pilot jets too? What exactly is causing the bike to not start..idle weird and die with throttle? Mostly the dying with throttle part? I thought that was to much air?

If you've got doubts going in, consider my services, others have with very positive results. Forum feedback
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=239678

I know you'll read or be told "carbs are easy, you can do it". Perhaps, after 2 or more frustrating attempts and wasted riding time.

[Ghostt]

Ducatiman's services are money well spent, time and aggravation saved.

I've known him and his work for several years now and I can vouch for him and his work.

[Ghostt]

Something to think about, beyond common problems...... comprehensive carb cleaning is not for everyone, there is much to go wrong in short order. We've seen many members endlessly chase their tails, break stuff, assemble and adjust stuff wrong.

With some of the fleet becoming old, the vast majority require much more than "cleaning". The potential for leakage must be addressed, any less attention is irresponsible, and yes, this may even require thowing money and parts at them (gasp). Consumables...carb innards are not forever items.

And certainly there is MORE... much more....to it than simply addressing the pilot jets while they are out and on the bench.

Please...you're screwing around with FUEL...if not absolutely sure of what you're doing...send them to someone who is.

[garyg199]

I know enough of what I'm doing to not have a catastrophic event occur. I'm no professional but I've been working on motors enough to get around with some helpful info. Usually just figure things out the hard/long way. Plus I like doing it myself. If I didn't think I could do something I would def send the part out or bring the bike somewhere. I did my carbs a boat load of times on my last bike but it was a slight bit different/different issues. And that was a couple years ago so I forget about some things. I just wasn't sure if I absolutely had to address the pilot jets. Thanks for the info!

[Ghostt]

Fair enough, I just like giving the big picture, and giving all the options available.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by garyg199

I know enough of what I'm doing to not have a catastrophic event occur. I'm no professional but I've been working on motors enough to get around with some helpful info. Usually just figure things out the hard/long way. Plus I like doing it myself. If I didn't think I could do something I would def send the part out or bring the bike somewhere. I did my carbs a boat load of times on my last bike but it was a slight bit different/different issues. And that was a couple years ago so I forget about some things. I just wasn't sure if I absolutely had to address the pilot jets. Thanks for the info!

Don't think that anyone here wants to discourage you from doing the work. That's how anyone learns! But all of us are saying you need to do a complete job or you may very well keep running into issues that could be avoided. The consensus is you need to do a thorough, complete clean of your entire fuel system. It may not be the correct advice in the end but based on what we are reading from you; that's our best advice.

[garyg199]

I understand I didn't think that. I'm not offended at all. I'm grateful for the info for sure! That's why I'm here yknow? I just got a bit of tunnel vision and subconsciously didn't think it through, in order to get back on the bike quicker. But of course if that's what I wanted I should have sent out out. It's never a quick thing with a new bike. ( new to me)

I've started taking everything back off to prep the carbs coming back out. If anyone has anything else to add, please do. I will keep everyone posted

[garyg199]

Does anyone have any advice on an easy way to get the throttle cables back on with the carburetors on? I had a hard time with it before trying to get the little Hammers and. Thanks

[Ghostt]

Take the cable bracket off the carburetor, it's a small Philips screw, get the cables in, then reattach the bracket, don't lose that little screws.

SIDENOTE: see sure you have the cables hooked up right, one pulls the other pushes.

[garyg199]

Oh there's a piece that you can get out on the whole mechanism? Didn't notice. I'll have to take a look because that was a pain in the ass! Thanks again!

[Ghostt]

No problem, another thought is did you check the fuel filter, on a NewGen it's located in the fuel inlet elbow on the carburetor.

It's a small looking plastic type screen, be sure to replace that as well, or at least check it.

[garyg199]

I didn't pull it out but it's in there. The little plastic piece with the screen in the line just before it meets the port for the carb,right?

[Ghostt]

[garyg199]

Do I just pull it out with some needle nose pliers? Can you put a better one between the line and port?

[Ghostt]

Yes, and it's a good filter, so just get a few of them to have a couple of spares.

If you at least order your carburetor kit thru @ducatiman I think he has those filters in stock as well.

On the EX500 we use a similar one to retrofit the carburetors on them, unfortunately it won't fit the PreGen Ninjette so we are forced to use an aftermarket inline fuel filter.

[garyg199]

Okay great,thanks. I'm gonna crack it open soon and see what's going on.

[Ghostt]

Be forewarned, the consumable parts you should have on hand before opening them up, or at least before you put them back together. The fuel bowl O-rings will need to be replaced, along with the idle mixture screw O-rings, float needles. These are consumable parts.

Below it a picture of float needle, note the deformed viton tip on the old one, this is shot, NFG, etc.... You get the point.

[garyg199]

It's shot because it's not as pointed? It's hard to see on my phone but it looks like the fresh one contains a better point. Can't see much else deformity. Thanks for the heads up though, didn't know about the o rings in the mixture screws

[Ghostt]

Exactly, all O-rings are consumable, and need to be replaced during the cleaning/rebuilding process, this is basic 101, even 100 carburetor service class.

Anything else is substandard, and bush league.

[jkv45]

Did you completely drain the tank and refill with fresh gas? Is the tank rusted at all? How much Seafoam did you add?

Did you remove the idle mixture screws and clean the passages? Did you set them to 2.5 turns out?

It's also possible the diaphragms are damaged or not installed correctly.

[garyg199]

No rust in the tank. I had a full tank of premium fuel in it for my very first fill up. I put about 1/4 maybe 1/2 can of sea foam in the full tank. After I started breaking everything down I put about 1/2 oz in the float bowls overnight. Drained the next day and added more premium gas to try and start it.

I was thinking maybe the diaphragms aren't seated good too and no I didn't do anything with the mixture screws the first time.

Getting back into the carbs now.

[garyg199]

Guess my post never went through last night...

So I took my jets out and clean everything real good. Poked some wire strands through all the tint holes. Didn't seem to find anything clogged, but everything is so tiny that it's hard to see the super fine stuff.

One of my needles looked a tad bent towards the end but I'm going to double check it again when I get home against something straight to make sure.

The butterfly on the left carb is slightly more open then the other too. Is this normal according to what it's adjusted to? I was playing with the sync screw trying to even it out ( noting where it originally was) but I couldn't get it too. I've never really looked at the butterflies so I'm not to keen on them. Any thoughts? That was also the dirtier of the carbs too.

[Ghostt]

To properly set the butterflies, use the bench synchronization method, here's my write-up on the subject,

You can sync with the carbs in hand. Back the idle adjustment off to close that carb then match the second carb to it with the sync screw. You can then turn the idle adjustment up while using a thin feeler gauge (maybe .002") between the throttle plate and the throttle bore, adjust to just fit, and then check the second one and adjust to match. If you have good feel for this it will run fine once installed.

It would do folks well to take a minute to review and understand what a sync tool does, how it works. And take another minute to look at the carb linkage and sync adjustments available to fix irregularities that might occur. It can help take some of the mystery out of this as well as stop unnecessary carb sync screwups.

Meaning, that the carbs were right once, the butterflies were matched and it performed well, but then changed. Undecided And the problem somehow occurred in the butterfly direct shafts, or the sync screw turned or wore that pad that it rests on, or the carburetor pairing/ bridging brackets twisted in relation to each other, and enough so that the butterflies no longer operated in sync, such that performance noticeably suffered. And a fix will be accomplished by changing the butterfly position, the only thing the sync adjustment does. Hmmm. Really? Undecided

Meanwhile, the tool measures vacuum at each individual runner. That's all it does, how it works. And vacuum is effected by a huge list of things, butterfly position being only one of them, and the only one addressed with that tool while turning those sync screws. The rest of that list includes, valve adjustment, jetting, float level, compression differences between cylinders caused by wear as well as factory CC differences in the head, intake runner, as well as flow by port variations, etc. Variations in cams, wear or factory tolerance. Then there's the potential big one, pilot jets and pilot screw mixture settings. All of those effect the vacuum and will be read by the sync tool, accurately identifyng the difference that exists, and with the only adjustment being used to "correct" the problem, move the butterfly relationship, one to the next.

It's that clear understanding that has me of the opinion and long time practice to not touch the sync screws on a set of carbs that were right once and were never dismantled from the rack. And jet cleaning as well as float needle changing doesn't require that they be dismantled. And further, if I DID dismantle a set of carbs, I just matched the butterflies on the bench at assembly, using a feeler gauge, and then never touched them again, never gave them another thought.

That method, properly executed, will have THAT portion of the complete equation, balanced flow to each cylinder in a multi-cylinder/ carb application due to butterfly position, satisfied entirely adequately. And in fact, it has worked for me every time I've done it on every bike (as well as individual runner/ butterfly V-8 intakes, all eight) that I've ever owned or any that I've fixed for others. And the times I fixed for others was usually after an attempt by others to sync the carbs, chasing a problem, or sometimes not even chasing a problem, but one they created wth a sync tool, chasing a problem from that list, that was never a butterfly position change problem. Those linkages are so direct and simple that they don't know how to screw themselves up. Not enough to care about.

I'm sure this will start a lot of controversy so I won't argue it, just offering it for those who understand the whole picture that I outlined and might make good use of it. It is what I've done, on every engine I ever worked on, including blue printed racing engines as well as regular old, high mileage street stuff. I've had at least four, four cylinder bikes with over 100,000 miles that ran quite well, the whole time, and never had a carb sync performed. When they did finally get a total disassembly, this is how I set them up, on the bench. Over the years I've straightened out at least a half dozen messed up ones, probably more, and on the bench, after fixing the original problem which was fouled pilot jets.

I only posted this because it seems like its coming up fairly often, especially with problems from a sync gone bad. One I would suggest was never a sync problem to begin with. A big or sudden change in performance is NEVER a sync problem. NEVER. Remember that. Cool If there is a problem, and you connect the gauges? YES, there will definitely be an imbalance indicated. But because that hole has a problem that is from the rest of the list. A bad plug, a plugged pilot jet, a screwed up float, a bad valve or setting, etc. Every one of them effecting the vacuum in the intake but NOT from a sudden move of a butterfly position, a sync adjustment.

[garyg199]

Problem. I was soaking my carb parts in degreaser and it turned the needles black... . . ... . . .. fml. What do I do? Must I buy new ones now? They're not totally black and it comes off with finger scrubbing but it seems like the varnish is coming off. Damn it!

[Ghostt]

If I remember correctly I think the needles are made out of some sort of chromium, possibly stainless steel, but I'd wait for @ducatiman to verify this.

Also why are you soaking the parts in degreaser? You should be using carburetor dip, but caution it doesn't like plastic or rubber parts, especially the diaphragms

Use the proper stuff, if you wish the job to be done right.

[Ghostt]

Also do these look familiar?

[garyg199]

Well it was just degreaser. I just wanted to try and get anything the carb cleaner wouldn't get off of those ^ and the springs etc.

And yes that's what all my parts look like .

What to do about the needles though? Should I try to get the black off and see if they will still operate on the carbs?

[ducatiman]

wipe clean/polish your needles with a non abrasive metal cleaner/polish and soft cloth, microfiber, whatever.

that should remove the surface discoloration, polish to a nice shine, matter o' fact.

Did you purchase carb kits with the consumables?