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Old February 27th, 2015, 10:07 AM   #1
shereth
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The A in ATGATT

There's a few guys here at work who ride on a regular basis. Another guy just finished the MSF course and got his license and was asking for advice on what kind of gear to get and an interesting "discussion" cropped up.

One guy was kind of ribbing me for wearing motorcycle specific boots on my daily commute. I keep a pair of regular shoes in my office desk drawer but I wear boots when riding (Sidi Vertigo to be specific) and I won't go out on the bike without them. I just won't do it. He said it makes you look like a poser, I just rolled my eyes and said I am fond of my feet and ankles.

Anyway the discussion kind of boiled down to an argument of safety vs. convenience. I like to call myself an ATGATT kind of guy but admittedly it's not 100% on the daily commute; while I wear leather pants (and my back protector now that I have one) on my longer weekend rides, I'm not rocking anything more protective than a pair of jeans on my way back and forth to work. I should know better - the one time I went off the bike years ago the only real damage was scraping up my legs - but the convenience factor comes in to play. I need to suck it up and get a pair of overpants.

One guy who at least wears a helmet and a jacket on his ride in leaves them at his desk when he takes his bike to the gym over lunch break. He says since it's just a half mile down the road he doesn't worry too much about it, and it's too much a hassle at the gym, though I can't help but to cringe every time I see him head off like that.

I always feel a twinge of guilt when I let "convenience" trump safety in these kinds of circumstances, and I know I still have a little ways to go before I can really call myself ATGATT.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 10:34 AM   #2
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People are individuals, so it's up to them to educate themselves about the risks and consequences of whatever they want to get into and do the proper research. If someone doesn't want to wear gear, all I can say is good luck with that, it's their choice. Personally, I'm very fond of my life (it's pretty damn amazing) and I try to mitigate anything that makes it a less than stellar one. This in essence is what life is all about to some degree, making choices and having those choices favor you greatly in the long run. If those choices don't favor you or your life, then it's time to look in the mirror and wonder why that is and what you can do to fix that, if possible or if it's not too late.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 10:54 AM   #3
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I normally dont wear my overpants when commuting to school, but i wear everything else (boots, helm, gloves, jacket). When im going to work, i just wear helmet and gloves because it isnt very far or very fast. I know this is the wrong decision, but whatever, man. When leisurely riding, i wear everything.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 11:08 AM   #4
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I'm still in the stage of "Wear everything!" and hope to never grow out of it.

Everything means: Helmet, earplugs, back protector, heavy gloves, armored jacket, armored pants, and moto boots.

I typically don't ride to work since gearing up for me takes me longer than the drive to work is, and having to deal with all the gear once I get to the office is annoying (even though I do have my own office and a locker room down the hall).

To me it's not worth riding if I'm not willing to gear up.

The only time I'll ride without gear is to turn the bike around in the driveway or in the paddock at the track. But there I'm mostly duckwalking anyway so meh.


I've been tempted by the idea of wearing armor pieces under my clothes (shin guards, shorts, elbow/forearm guards), but then realize that cotton still sucks in the abrasion resistance department.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 11:38 AM   #5
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When I ride in jeans, it's Dainese Kevlar-woven jeans; a little pricey and the protection level is less than racing leathers, but much better than regular jeans which provide zero protection.

If I had to chose between boots and jeans, I'd rather skimp on boots - regular over the ankle leather boots do over significant protection, even if they don't look "motorcycle-y".
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Old February 27th, 2015, 11:51 AM   #6
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ya i bought moto-specific jeans, the drayko;s. THey looks like normal jeans but they have awesome abrasion resistance ( still wear the same pair i had a 40mph lowisde in). No armor, but its a step in the right direction. I only wear the armored overpants when its cold, and have the jeans on under them. I always have my boots (more like shoes, the puma v2 so i have ankle protection), jacket gloves and helmet.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 12:15 PM   #7
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Old February 27th, 2015, 12:24 PM   #8
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I used to ride with regular jeans and work boots. i upgrades to Draggin Jeans (love them) and some tourmaster boots to go with my full face helmet, armored jacket (a mesh one for warm weather and a textile for cold) and A* gloves. I try to wear earplugs but sometimes i'm bad and i dont. I haven't found the perfect set yet and my ear canals got torn up by the ones i was using.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 01:12 PM   #9
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I'm old enough to remember when people griped about wearing seatbelts because they were inconvenient.

Now, nobody gives them a second thought.

What changed? Not the belts. It was our attitude. It was a whole generation growing up with their parents telling them to buckle up. We just don't think about it anymore.

I wear full leather gear, boots, gauntlets, the works... every commute. It takes all of what, two or three minutes to head to the bathroom to change? Gimme a break. I spend more time than that in the office kitchen making coffee.

Convenience is a silly excuse for increasing risk. Just make time to do it right.

Hey, it's inconvenient to put on a condom, right? But does convenience trump safety, or does it get done without question?

"Poser?" That says one thing above all else: That it's more important to look good. Which is a flat-out stupid attitude.

I will admit to not changing my pants when heading 1 mile down the road to the diner for lunch -- a trip on which I never get above 30 mph. That's the only concession to convenience that I make.

Everyone has their own comfort level. Here's my proven formula:

- Jeans/pants kept at work. Change 'em out every few days for a fresh pair.
- Shoes kept at work.
- Shirt comes with me either worn or (if really hot out) in a backpack.

Gear up in the morning. Ride in. Grab clothes, shoes and coffee cup when I get to my office. Head to kitchen, put cup in coffee machine, go to bathroom.
Remove riding pants/boots and put on jeans and shoes. Come out and the coffee has just finished brewing. Back to the office.

Done. Five minutes, absolute tops.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 01:20 PM   #10
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Boots are a must, the one thing I may skimp on is the leather trousers, but that's only if i'm doing a mile or 2.

Broken bones in your feet hurt, and the shifter will **** your shoes up
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Old February 27th, 2015, 02:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
I'm old
Now, nobody gives them a second thought.

What changed? Cops telling them to buckle up or get a ticket.

I wear full leather gear in the bedroom, boots, gauntlets, the works... . It takes all of what, two or three minutes to head to the bathroom to change? Gimme a break. I spend more time than that with the handcuffs.

Convenience is a silly excuse for increasing risk. Just make time to do it right.

Hey, it's inconvenient to put on a condom, right? But does convenience trump safety, or do you can just say roll over honey!

"Boner?" That says one thing above all else: That it's more important to look good. Which is the attitude.

I will admit to not changing my pants for a week. That's the only concession to convenience that I make.

Everyone has their own comfort level. .

Done. Five minutes, absolute tops. Wife wants more but I say, "no way".
I couldn't agree more!
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Old February 27th, 2015, 02:39 PM   #12
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There is a certain thrill of going bareback. Only once in a while for me though...

I am looking at some good moto jeans for the commute once it heats up.
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Old February 27th, 2015, 02:43 PM   #13
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Old February 27th, 2015, 03:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shereth View Post
One guy who at least wears a helmet and a jacket on his ride in leaves them at his desk when he takes his bike to the gym over lunch break. He says since it's just a half mile down the road he doesn't worry too much about it, and it's too much a hassle at the gym, though I can't help but to cringe every time I see him head off like that.
He should jog to the gym instead. He may as well too since he's probably going to do some form of cardio when he's there anyway and it'll only take 4-5min on foot if it's half a mile
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Old February 28th, 2015, 04:31 PM   #15
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Good thread.
I'm a MTGMTT ( most of the gear most of the time ) rider. I do admire people that are disciplined enough to go ATGATT. I always wear a helmet, jacket ( leather or textile), gloves and some kind of boots. On sport rides, long rides and competitions I'll complete the ensemble with textile riding pants and full length boots. I still don't own moto boots , just heavy-duty work boots.
I also am not critical of people who choose not to go ATGATT. I mitigate my risks by being a safe, careful rider but I realize there are always risks. I feel that I balance my risk exposure with a reasonable level of protection.

Unfortunately the riders that take the biggest risks usually choose to not protect themselves adequately from the consequences of their actions.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 05:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shereth View Post
.......... I'm not rocking anything more protective than a pair of jeans on my way back and forth to work. I should know better - the one time I went off the bike years ago the only real damage was scraping up my legs - but the convenience factor comes in to play. I need to suck it up and get a pair of overpants.
.............
I always feel a twinge of guilt when I let "convenience" trump safety in these kinds of circumstances, and I know I still have a little ways to go before I can really call myself ATGATT.
Most my scars from ancient falls are on my legs and ankles.
I could ride without a jacket or gloves, but never without riding boots and armored over-pants.
A Kevlar-woven jean will burn your skin and has no impact protection.

Learn about the parts of the body more damaged during falls and crashes:
http://roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/75.html

http://roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/91.html



Any rider who let's "convenience" trump safety, simply does not understand the risks that his/her mental attitude is exposing him/her to.

It is not that the skin and bones of that rider are going to get hurt if he/she crashes, it is that his/her frame of mind, which is still functioning at a low level of awareness and capability to effectively react, will lead him/her into dangerous situations.

He/she has more chances to crash because their lack of proper education.
He/she does not know that most crashes result in "inconvenient" injuries and that avoiding that accident is not only possible, but much more "convenient" than testing a protective gear that he/she may or may not be wearing at that particular short trip.

Here are some of the facts found by the Hurt report and copied from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Hurt_Report
  • Most motorcycle accidents involve a short trip associated with shopping, errands, friends, entertainment or recreation, and the accident is likely to happen in very short time close to the trip origin.
  • Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly Overrepresented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly underrepresented.
  • Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent.
  • The typical motorcycle accident allows the motorcyclist just less than 2 seconds to complete all collision avoidance action.
  • The likelihood of injury is extremely high in these motorcycle accidents; 98% of the multiple vehicle collisions and 96% of the single vehicle accidents resulted in some kind of injury to the motorcycle rider; 45% resulted in more than a minor injury.
  • Half of the injuries to the somatic regions were to the ankle-foot, lower leg, knee, and thigh-upper leg.
  • Approximately 50% of the motorcycle riders in traffic were using safety helmets but only 40% of the accident-involved motorcycle riders were wearing helmets at the time of the accident.
  • Sixty percent of the motorcyclists were not wearing safety helmets at the time of the accident. Of this group, 26% said they did not wear helmets because they were uncomfortable and inconvenient, and 53% simply had no expectation of accident involvement.


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Old February 28th, 2015, 05:32 PM   #17
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@ Motofool , Great post Hernan!
The stats make me reconsider my protection strategy and be more concerned about leg and foot injuries.
many thanks!!!
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Old February 28th, 2015, 05:47 PM   #18
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I couldn't agree more!
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Old February 28th, 2015, 06:41 PM   #19
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@ Motofool , Great post Hernan!
The stats make me reconsider my protection strategy and be more concerned about leg and foot injuries.
many thanks!!!
You are welcome, Vic

This is about materials and why the best jean is worst than the worst armored ballistic nylon:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128174
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Old February 28th, 2015, 09:06 PM   #20
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My commuting and traveling gear are pretty much the same...other than my kevlar jeans everything else is pretty much race ready.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 09:18 PM   #21
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Okay my turn for my 2˘,

I am a avid A.T.G.A.T.T, doesn't make a difference if it's a short or long ride, I have many options from a one piece leathers, down to Kevlar riding jeans

I also have Bohn bodyguard system, which is an awesome thing to have, for impact protection, it's all CE rated, and fits under regular clothing, and nobody else knows it. I call it my superhero armour

https://www.bohnarmor.com/

One thing that owners forget is the safety of their passenger, even more important that your own I feel, hence I have a few set of gear for them as well. I feel very strongly about keeping myself and my passenger safe. Just go to www.rockthegear.org and read my friend's story, she was the passenger.

Case and point, a few years ago I got a call from my daughter, and she found herself stranded, I detoured to her, I was on my bike. When I got to her, obviously she had had, no gear. Waiting for someone else to come and pick her up wasn't an option(long story)

So I proceeded to give her all my gear, helmet, jacket, overpants, gloves. I know what your gonna say, but it was my only daughter, she was in trouble, and I had no other options, so I made sure if anything did happen, at least she would be safe, I couldn't live with myself any other way. I just took it really slow and easy, drove like an old lady going to church on Sunday morning, and all was well.
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Old February 28th, 2015, 09:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
A Kevlar-woven jean will burn your skin
How do you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
and has no impact protection.
Dainese jeans do have impact protection built in, and you can buy additional armor.

I mean, it's not racing leathers, but they do offer protection.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 11:07 AM   #23
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How do you know?

Dainese jeans do have impact protection built in, and you can buy additional armor.

I mean, it's not racing leathers, but they do offer protection.
How I know: I have been burned by denim jeans that, without getting ripped, transferred enough heat from friction against pavement into my skin.

I have seen similar injuries in riders wearing dragging jeans.
Kevlar and cotton have the same heat transfer coefficient: 0.04 watts/(m-K).

I have not seen the same phenomenon from 600D and above weight Cordura.
Maybe because its coefficient of friction is much lower than denim and less temperature is developed during a slide; I don't really know.

What I know: That, with enough pressure on it, denim tries harder to grab the rough asphalt surface, reason for which is easily teared and in need of threads of Kevlar as reinforcement.
The dragging jeans have internal patches of Kevlar as a second and stronger layer of protection against rash.
Depending on quality and severity of slide, those patches can also break and expose skin.

Good CE approved armor is normally bulky because it is made to absorb impact energy and should cover at least knees and hips.
Thin armor suitable for jeans may be good enough, but only if manufactured with the proper materials and certified.
Please read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_armor


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Old March 1st, 2015, 07:02 PM   #24
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Kevlar has saved me at 40mph twice, but like motofool said it can burn you. All I got was a light scuff on the knee of the pants, but underneath was a nasty "burn" and friction rub that started bleeding. I can deal with that since it was just a rub burn, but if it had been a blunt force impact or a piercing object I would have been done for.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 07:37 PM   #25
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Hence wearing proper gear, when I wear my Kevlar jeans, etc I also where the Bohn bodyguard system underneath, abrasion and impact.

One without the other is pointless to assure complete protection.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 08:02 PM   #26
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I feel the need to share this posting from the EX-500.COM that happened back in 2009, but it's a timeless story,


the lessons from my mistake (somewhat graphic, be careful)

It's a simple enough story, that went totally wrong, by a fellow forum member by the name of mgbenny

Here is his first post in the long thread, which has over 30,000 views.

Quote:
So. I'm going to try to be direct and straightforward in hopes that anyone who reads this will learn better than I seem to have learned. I made many, many mistakes in the course of this story and I'm aware of them all. If you want to flame, flame away, but I'm already sick over what happened and just don't want it to happen to anyone else.

I had my first wreck Thursday night. I had a passenger, which changed the handling of the bike, and I wasn't careful enough. A turn snuck up on us in the dark, and I ran out of lean and lowsided at about 35 mph. We were just going around the corner for a burrito; no gear, no helmets. (not even going to begin to rationalize any of this. Like I said, this was all a result of many bad decisions on my part, and I completely accept that).

I'm sure we only slid for a second or so but I remember it vividly. The bike threw up a storm of sparks, she landed on me and we went over and over. I remember every time she came over me, I was trying to keep her off the asphalt. Then everything stopped and was silent, and the sickest single moment of my life occurred as I thought "I've killed a person. I've killed her." Then time started up again and she started crying. I called my friend from around the corner who took us to the hospital, where I sat with her for 8 hours while she got checked out.

The damages: I've lost lots of skin. I mean, lots. I've never hurt this badly in my life. It was just skin and I'm uninsured, so I thought "I'll take care of it myself." and declined admission to the ER. Scrubbing it out without morphine is the single most painful 30 minutes I've ever felt.

As far as she goes: she's pretty damn rashed up. Probably worse than me. She split her head open over her eyebrow, and it's swelled her eye shut. Two inches to the left and she would have died instantly. She came down hard on her hip and knee, and can't bend them for the swelling. Her x-rays came back clean, so no broken bones. She's medicated, safe at home, and never wants to see me again. I wouldn't either.

Listen up kids. When you ride 2-up, you take somebody's life in your hands. You had damn well better be prepared for that responsibility. I've spend quite a bit of time today sitting on the floor of my room sobbing that I'm such a jackass that I almost took a life. I took responsibility for another person and failed miserably. It's the sickest feeling in the world and I want to spare you all from it. I would give anything in my entire life for the last two days to have never happened.

Pictures below for the strong of stomach, in hopes of scaring you all into being wise. I would accept this unblinkingly as a damn good warning, had I been alone. But someone I care about is in even worse shape, and I am 100% responsible. I never wanted to know what that feels like.

All but the last photo were taken in the hospital bathroom while she was being x-rayed.

Right arm:



Left arm. This one bled for 10 hours:



Left hand. Note the missing skin. By now, 2 days later, it's peeled back about another half-inch around the abrasion:


Left leg. These were my good, heavy pants. They lasted about 6 inches:



Shoulder to waist. If you look closely, you can see all the buttons ripped out of the shirt and I dragged on that side. There's gravel so deep on my pec that I'll never get it out:


At home:


The nurse sent extra stuff with Catie so I could get cleaned up too. What she didn't send was the several vials of morphine that Catie had in her when then scrubbed her out. Tylenol isn't the same. I screamed, threw up, and passed out cleaning these. And the whole time I'm dealing with the fact that I knew better and was in control, and I did this to somebody else who did NOT have control. Day 2, and it's not any easier to live with.

I tried to be completely frank about how I'm feeling in an effort to make the truth set in on you guys. I was a literal 2 inches away from killing her, because I thought we didn't need gear to go 5 blocks, and because she liked the thrill of leaning and I wanted to impress her. Nobody's impressed now.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:54:14 AM by mgbenny »
I consider MGBENNY, my close forum friend, and that is why I'm sharing this, along with my other personal friend Britney "QUEEN B" Morrow's story and website (www.rockthegear.org) on all my post as part of my signature.

And why I'm such a strong supporter of her cause, and A.T.G.A.T.T.

If this post saves just one person, it is worth it, and makes one think before riding with no gear.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 08:49 PM   #27
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@Alex this would make a great topic for a sticky
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Old March 1st, 2015, 09:43 PM   #28
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I think ill wear my gear to work now...
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Old March 1st, 2015, 09:46 PM   #29
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With so many options and types of choices for gear these days, there is no reason not to ride without it, unless that's one's personal decision, just make sure you understand what's at stake.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 06:20 PM   #30
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In a generation or two, ATGATT will hopefully be commonplace
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Old March 8th, 2015, 09:22 PM   #31
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One can only hope, but we need to educate them now.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 09:31 PM   #32
MrAtom
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Met a guy at work who has been riding for less time than me on a suzuki bandit 1200 with no gear at all. I didnt lecture him or anything, just said "wow, thats a bad idea" and kept shooting the **** with him. Hope he doesnt have to learn the hard way.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 09:40 PM   #33
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There's an old saying

" there are two types of bikers, one's that have laid it down, and one's that haven't yet"


I have done one lowside , at a slow speed, yes I was wearing my gear, the bike took way more damage than I did.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 09:55 PM   #34
fishdip
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As a person who has crashed with out gear and with gear I say ride how ever you want.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 10:13 PM   #35
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Absolutely, I'm not a gear Nazi, I just recommend to a new rider and share my knowledge, after that it's up to them.

Even my own children, but I told them if want a bike, you will take the MSF course first.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 10:40 PM   #36
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Yeah, for sure. I even dont like helmet laws. Although, if a loved one wants to ride, ill even go as far as to buy gear for them so theyll feel like an ungrateful dick when they ride without it. Not great gear, but something.
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Old March 8th, 2015, 11:11 PM   #37
JohnnyBravo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostt View Post
Okay my turn for my 2˘,

I am a avid A.T.G.A.T.T, doesn't make a difference if it's a short or long ride, I have many options from a one piece leathers, down to Kevlar riding jeans

I also have Bohn bodyguard system, which is an awesome thing to have, for impact protection, it's all CE rated, and fits under regular clothing, and nobody else knows it. I call it my superhero armour

https://www.bohnarmor.com/

One thing that owners forget is the safety of their passenger, even more important that your own I feel, hence I have a few set of gear for them as well. I feel very strongly about keeping myself and my passenger safe. Just go to www.rockthegear.org and read my friend's story, she was the passenger.

Case and point, a few years ago I got a call from my daughter, and she found herself stranded, I detoured to her, I was on my bike. When I got to her, obviously she had had, no gear. Waiting for someone else to come and pick her up wasn't an option(long story)

So I proceeded to give her all my gear, helmet, jacket, overpants, gloves. I know what your gonna say, but it was my only daughter, she was in trouble, and I had no other options, so I made sure if anything did happen, at least she would be safe, I couldn't live with myself any other way. I just took it really slow and easy, drove like an old lady going to church on Sunday morning, and all was well.
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Old January 20th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #38
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Safety Bump
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Old January 25th, 2017, 01:46 AM   #39
Mechanikrazy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostt View Post
One thing that owners forget is the safety of their passenger, even more important that your own I feel, hence I have a few set of gear for them as well. I feel very strongly about keeping myself and my passenger safe. Just go to www.rockthegear.org and read my friend's story, she was the passenger.

Case and point, a few years ago I got a call from my daughter, and she found herself stranded, I detoured to her, I was on my bike. When I got to her, obviously she had had, no gear. Waiting for someone else to come and pick her up wasn't an option(long story)

So I proceeded to give her all my gear, helmet, jacket, overpants, gloves. I know what your gonna say, but it was my only daughter, she was in trouble, and I had no other options, so I made sure if anything did happen, at least she would be safe, I couldn't live with myself any other way. I just took it really slow and easy, drove like an old lady going to church on Sunday morning, and all was well.

Requoting to emphasize.

Riders have to remember that we are responsible for the life of our passenger. When we squid, we do it knowing full well the risks and horror stories. Passengers usually do not know of the actual risks they are taking by hopping on the back. It is the duty of the rider to properly protect the passenger against risks they have not contemplated.

Like you Ghost, I make sure my passengers are fully decked out. They get the better, full coverage gear when we go for a spin.
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Old February 12th, 2017, 06:30 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roark View Post
In a generation or two, ATGATT will hopefully be commonplace
I hear that's what the person that made the first gear said... An look at us now
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